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Historical Case for the Resurrection of Jesus

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I noticed that you made no comment on the arguments I presented in favor of the historicity of the appearances
Maybe you could show me which comment you mean. What appearances? The appearance of the resurrected Jesus? If so, I've told you that it doesn't matter to me that Paul claims to have had a vision of the risen Jesus, nor it matter that the Bible claims that there were witnesses to a resurrection. Did you see those replies? I didn't see you acknowledge them or try to rebut them.
I missed your response on parsimony, why do you think that it is the only (or the most important) criteria? “parsimony is not the only, nor the most important criteria” In my opinion this claim is trivially true and requires no support, but let me know if you disagree
Criterion for what? Belief? It's not a criterion for belief and doesn't claim to be. Like all razors, it's a method for ordering hypotheses, not for deciding among them. Maybe this will help:

He: "you want to discuss a statement about using occam's razor to dismiss prophecy, as if occam's razor is a reason that prophecy is not true. But you're the critical thinker."

Me: "You misunderstood. Occam's razor is the reason the best explanation for the existence of biblical prophecy doesn't include a god - a complication that while logically possibly the source of the prophecy, isn't necessary to account for its very human-appearing words. No offense intended, but you probably shouldn't be mocking thinking you haven't mastered and don't appear to recognize.

"Focus on the precise meaning of the words you read and resist the temptation to transform them into something you assume they mean before looking at them more closely. I have never said that the prophecy was true or false. I have said that it doesn't suggest transhuman prescience. Those are different ideas. And Occam's Razor dismisses no possibilities. Like all statements called razors, it orders possibilities. Hitchens' Razor says that that which can be offered without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Sagan's is similar: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Neither says that the claims are wrong, just not justified, and so, not to be accepted as correct.

"We have one in medicine that says that if you hear hoofbeats, look for horses, not zebras, where horses refer to diagnoses that are commoner and zebras rarer things, and is roughly the equivalent of the duck razor: "If it looks like a duck, etc.." Popper's razor refers to falsifiability, and places unfalsifiable statements at the bottom of any list of things to investigate without calling them wrong."
Do you honestly believe that a falsified hypothesis (that is parsimonios) is better than a non falsified hypothesis –(that is less parsimonious)? ……. This is an honest question, I find it absurd for someone to deny my claim
No. You apparently got that from something I wrote. You don't seem to understand what the razor says. It's not looking for the explanation with the least amount of complexity, which may be an insufficient hypothesis for its failure to account for some observation, but the simplest explanation that DOES accounts for all relevant observations. A falsified claim is one that has been successfully rebutted.

Are you familiar with Ptolemy's epicycles for explaining the retrograde motion of Mars in his geocentric model, where from earth, Mars appears to move in one direction, reverse direction for a while, and then reverse again? It adds considerable complexity to his model. To keep the earth in the center and the other planets orbiting about it, he added these phantom movements that had planets orbiting around nothing and the earth simultaneously:

1690910101561.png


But put the sun in the center as Copernicus did, and watch what happens. The paths of the planets are greatly simplified. That's parsimony. A simpler mathematical treatment is a preferred one:
1690910324134.png


the resurrection is far more parsimonious than competing hypothesis…….. a resurection (just one variable) explains the 10 appearances reported in the various books of the in the new testament, it explains the empty tomb, it explains the conversion of Paul, and the conversion of James, it explains why the disciples where willing to die, it explains the flourishment of early Christianity etc.

I challenge you to provide a hypothesis that is more parsimonious than that.
Once again, you demonstrate that you don't understand what Occam is calling for. It's not about how many ideas can be "explained" with a hypothesis. All relevant observations need to be accounted for by every hypothesis. Naturalistic hypotheses also account for all of that but do so without invoking a supernatural realm. Both can account for all of that, but one does so with fewer assumptions about reality.

How about ordering these in terms of likelihood:

1. The dog is missing because somebody left the door open.
2. The dog is gone because your angry ex-girlfriend took it to make you suffer.
3. The dog is gone because a cartel broke in, took it, and intends to ransom it.
4. The dog is gone because extraterrestrials beamed it up for an anal probe.
5. The dog is gone because Odin teleported it away.

You know the order. It's as listed from most to least likely, but do you know why? It's because each new answer requires something extra be true. For 1 to be true, all that's necessary is that a door was opened. For 2, we need the ex-girlfriend to be willing to commit crimes. For 3, we need to have been a target of some unseen dog-nabbing cartel that may not exist. For 4, we need for there to be an advanced technological civilization to have visited earth recently. And for 5, we need supernaturalism and Odin to exist. We can add even more unnecessary complication. Odin sent the extraterrestrials at the request of the angry ex, but not until his wife nagged him for a while at the behest of her mother because Odin had offended her. Let's add more unnecessary detail, shall we, or do you get my point? The simplest explanation that requires the least variables be true is most likely the correct one (preferred one).
Take for example (error) which is in the top of your list of hypothesis. Since I have no idea on what you mean by error, I will try to guess.

I will assume that this is your hypothesis, (if this is a straw man, then please develop eand explain exactly what you mean by error)

“The disciples saw a guy that looked like Jesus, and erroneously thought he was the real Jesus.”
Error as an explanation refers to people witnessing something that they mistook for a resurrection, but can also include gullibility or suggestibility. It's a category along with fraud (deliberate dissembling, mythmaking).
 

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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And this is also a huge violation to parsimony, you have to

1 assume without evidence that James and the apostoles where too stupid that didn’t noticed that he was not Jesus

2 you have to assume that there was a crazy man that looked like Jesus, that wanted to play a joke to the disciples (despite the fact that it would be super dangerous and an obvious target for romans and Jews)

3 you have to invent an alterative explanation for the emty tomb

4 you have to invent an alternative explanation for why the early church flourished
You call that a violation of parsimony? It's not. For starters, stupidity is not necessary but exists in abundant supply. Misidentification is common as we know from the Innocence Project. No crazy man is needed or implied. The empty tomb is also myth and even were there some empty place called a tomb, that's easily explainable naturalistically. And the church flourished principally because Paul's work was enough to keep the religion alive until Constantine promoted it with the point of a sword - all very natural.

And error doesn't top my list of candidate explanations. Myth added after the fact which included fabricated reports of nonexistent eyewitnesses is. That's even simpler than mass misidentification with nobody reportedly disagreeing.
Nope, the type of error invoked in the hypothesis above has never been observed. Nobody in recorded history has concluded that his brother resurrected, because he saw a guy that looks like him
You already saw the Elvis spotting rebuttal.

Amusing anecdote. My wife commented on a newscaster who sometimes comes on the air wearing a lot of makeup, and sometimes very little. We watch the CBS and NBC nightly news every day, and eventually realized that these were two different women working for two different networks, Stephanie Gosk and Catherine Herridge:

View attachment 80252 View attachment 80253
The resurrection hypothesis is falsifiable. There are plenty of potential discoveries that would falsify the hypothesis. for example, finding the tomb of Jeus, or 1st century documents explaining that Jesus survived in the cross would falsify the resurrection.
Disagree.

Leroy, we are too far apart for me to be able to help you. You don't seem to know what falsifiable means, either, and previous attempts to clarify any of these ideas have been in vain. You're not going to understand what parsimony means however many times I repeat myself. The resurrection claim invokes the unfalsifiable claim that a god raised a man from the dead 2000 years ago. What is falsifiable and has been falsified is the claim that the deity credited with that exists.
But even more important, your burden is not to falsify the resurrection, all you have to do (according to the OP) is to provide a better explanation for the bed rock facts
Done and done again, but once again, in vain.
You haven’t shown naturalism to be true
More evidence of wasted words trying to explain. I'm not trying to show that naturalism is true, which probably confuses you to read.
Nobody has ever observed life coming from non-life, does that show that abiogenist never happened? (by your logic yes)
You think that's my logic? I have said no such thing.
So in summery

1 you haven’t shown that O.R. is the only criteria that matters (as you seem to be affirming)

2 you havent provided an example of a hypothesis that is more parsimonious that the resurrection

3 you are falsely accusing the resurrection hypotheiss for being “unfalsifiable”

4 you haven provided a hypothesis that doesn’t invoke extraordinary things that have never been observed.

5 you ignored my comments on the appearances

6 you havent provided suficient (conclusive) evidence for naturalism
1. I didn't say that. See above
2. I did do that. Naturalism can account for all known facts in that story and anywhere else. The supernatural need not be invoked exist to explain anything.
3. The supernaturalistic resurrection claim is unfalsifiable
4. That is incorrect. Nothing I have proposed isn't commonplace in human history.
5. My guess is that you didn't recognize when I did that. Let's see what you come up with that you claim I ignored.
6. I've given you argument for presuming naturalism for as long as it remains a viable possibility.
I have been asking you for weeks to pick an naturalistic hypothesis and to explain why is that better than the resurrection, why are you ignoring my request? Dozens of hypothesis have been published in the literature and are supported by some scholars, so why don’t you simply quote one of this hypothesis? (or develop one hypothesis of your own)
Already done. Why don't you know that?
Isen´t it ironic that you are accusing me for ignoring your posts, when you are being guilty of the same crime?
Let's see if you can find examples of claims you've made that still need addressing. I don't trust your processing of information to believe that you are probably correct about what has transpired here.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Okay, you believe in the natural world. You just do not understand the concept of evidence,

You call that a violation of parsimony? It's not. For starters, stupidity is not necessary but exists in abundant supply. Misidentification is common as we know from the Innocence Project. No crazy man is needed or implied. The empty tomb is also myth and even were there some empty place called a tomb, that's easily explainable naturalistically. And the church flourished principally because Paul's work was enough to keep the religion alive until Constantine promoted it with the point of a sword - all very natural.

And error doesn't top my list of candidate explanations. Myth added after the fact which included fabricated reports of nonexistent eyewitnesses is. That's even simpler than mass misidentification with nobody reportedly disagreeing.

You already saw the Elvis spotting rebuttal.

Amusing anecdote. My wife commented on a newscaster who sometimes comes on the air wearing a lot of makeup, and sometimes very little. We watch the CBS and NBC nightly news every day, and eventually realized that these were two different women working for two different networks, Stephanie Gosk and Catherine Herridge:

View attachment 80252 View attachment 80253

Disagree.

Leroy, we are too far apart for me to be able to help you. You don't seem to know what falsifiable means, either, and previous attempts to clarify any of these ideas have been in vain. You're not going to understand what parsimony means however many times I repeat myself. The resurrection claim invokes the unfalsifiable claim that a god raised a man from the dead 2000 years ago. What is falsifiable and has been falsified is the claim that the deity credited with that exists.

Done and done again, but once again, in vain.

More evidence of wasted words trying to explain. I'm not trying to show that naturalism is true, which probably confuses you to read.

You think that's my logic? I have said no such thing.

1. I didn't say that. See above
2. I did do that. Naturalism can account for all known facts in that story and anywhere else. The supernatural need not be invoked exist to explain anything.
3. The supernaturalistic resurrection claim is unfalsifiable
4. That is incorrect. Nothing I have proposed isn't commonplace in human history.
5. My guess is that you didn't recognize when I did that. Let's see what you come up with that you claim I ignored.
6. I've given you argument for presuming naturalism for as long as it remains a viable possibility.

Already done. Why don't you know that?

Let's see if you can find examples of claims you've made that still need addressing. I don't trust your processing of information to believe that you are probably correct about what has transpired here.

You are wrong at so many levels that it is hard to know where to start, lets start with the most obvious of your mistakes


Nope, the type of error invoked in the hypothesis above has never been observed. Nobody in recorded history has concluded that his brother resurrected, because he saw a guy that looks like him
You already saw the Elvis spotting rebuttal.

For starters, stupidity is not necessary but exists in abundant supply. Misidentification is common as we know from the Innocence Project.
In the case of Elvis or the innocence project, we are talking about a random guy that saw someone who looks like someone else. Not to mention that nobody concluded that Elvis resurrected (just that he didn’t die)

In the case of Jesus we are talking about his own brother. So it is not the same, it is not analogous.

There is not a single case in history where somebody claimed the resurrection of his brother, because he saw someone that looks like him.

Just to summarize

I said that it is unlikely (nearly impossible) that the disciples and James the borther of Jesus would have concluded that Jesus resurrected because he saw a guy that looks like Jesus.

You “refuted” the claim with “elvis” and “innocence project”

Do you understand why your refutation fails?

If you don’t see your mistake, then I don’t see hope for you


 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You are wrong at so many levels that it is hard to know where to start, lets start with the most obvious of your mistakes
I am only going by your arguments and your mistakes. You do not seem to realize that your argument was 100% projection.
In the case of Elvis or the innocence project, we are talking about a random guy that saw someone who looks like someone else. Not to mention that nobody concluded that Elvis resurrected (just that he didn’t die)

No. You screwed up and lost right away. Elvis is not some "random guy". And so what if no one concluded that Elvis was not resurrected.. That only makes him far more likely than your Jesus story. And yet you deny Elvis. You just shot yourself i the foot again.
In the case of Jesus we are talking about his own brother. So it is not the same, it is not analogous.

No, you are not. You are back to using very weak sources that are only hearsay at the very best. And they do not appear to be even that.
There is not a single case in history where somebody claimed the resurrection of his brother, because he saw someone that looks like him.

Once again, so what? You are only making it worse for yourself.
Just to summarize

I said that it is unlikely (nearly impossible) that the disciples and James the borther of Jesus would have concluded that Jesus resurrected because he saw a guy that looks like Jesus.

Two huge flaws with this, you are still assuming that James saw Jesus. Paul only claimed that. You forgot about Paul's bogus "I have a girlfriend, she's really hot" argument. That is hardly what qualifies as a reliable source. And even if he did there are not even any details about i that supposed sighting so it could be just like an Elvis sighting You failed again. You would need a lot more evidence than one single verse without any details to make your claims.
You “refuted” the claim with “elvis” and “innocence project”

Do you understand why your refutation fails?

If you don’t see your mistake, then I don’t see hope for you
Nope, my refutation stands. You could only shoot yourself in the foot in response to it. I know that you will refuse to see your errors. You are once again guilty of massive projection.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I am only going by your arguments and your mistakes. You do not seem to realize that your argument was 100% projection.


No. You screwed up and lost right away. Elvis is not some "random guy". And so what if no one concluded that Elvis was not resurrected.. That only makes him far more likely than your Jesus story. And yet you deny Elvis. You just shot yourself i the foot again.


No, you are not. You are back to using very weak sources that are only hearsay at the very best. And they do not appear to be even that.


Once again, so what? You are only making it worse for yourself.


Two huge flaws with this, you are still assuming that James saw Jesus. Paul only claimed that. You forgot about Paul's bogus "I have a girlfriend, she's really hot" argument. That is hardly what qualifies as a reliable source. And even if he did there are not even any details about i that supposed sighting so it could be just like an Elvis sighting You failed again. You would need a lot more evidence than one single verse without any details to make your claims.

Nope, my refutation stands. You could only shoot yourself in the foot in response to it. I know that you will refuse to see your errors. You are once again guilty of massive projection.
You are not following


The claim is that people dont concude that someone close (like a brother) resurected just because they saw someone that looks like him.

Elvis doest refute the claim.


You seem to agree, so end of discussion
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You are not following
Wrong again.
The claim is that people dont concude that someone close (like a brother) resurected just because they saw someone that looks like him.
No, that is not the claim. Instead of making assumptions you should be asking more questions. Also it appears that you have never paid any attention to what is proposed. No one has claimed that. No one has implied that.
Elvis doest refute the claim.
It does, but I cannot force you to understand.
You seem to agree, so end of discussion
With you? No. All you have done now is to show once again that you could not follow the conversation.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Wrong again.

No, that is not the claim. Instead of making assumptions you should be asking more questions. Also it appears that you have never paid any attention to what is proposed. No one has claimed that. No one has implied that.

It does, but I cannot force you to understand.

With you? No. All you have done now is to show once again that you could not follow the conversation.

No, that is not the claim.
I am the one who is making the claim…………. Therefore I know what the claim is.

With you? No. All you have done now is to show once again that you could not follow the conversation.
Yes you agreed with the claim, (people don’t conclude that his brother resurrected, because they saw someone that looks like him)………… there are comments that you made that imply that you agreed with that claim like 20 minutes ago

But apparently you changed your view … ok what made you change your mind?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I am the one who is making the claim…………. Therefore I know what the claim is.
No, you have been trying to claim what others are arguing. Not only me, but I have seen you do that to others as well. You always get it wrong.
Yes you agreed with the claim, (people don’t conclude that his brother resurrected, because they saw someone that looks like him)………… there are comments that you made that imply that you agreed with that claim like 20 minutes ago
No, if you misunderstood at best. Where did you get that from?
But apparently you changed your view … ok what made you change your mind?
Nope. Again, you do tend to misunderstand others quite often. At least that is a small saving grace because it means that you were not lying about others.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Then your example fails. We have plenty of reliable evidence for the natural world. We do not have any reliable evidence for the supernatural.
That is impossible to tell, given that you haven’t provided a definition for evidence.

If we define evidence as “anything that moves the weiger in favor of a claim position or view….” Then there is plenty of evidence for both sides.

I don’t understand why atheist form this forum like to play semntaics and avoid the burden proof instead of developing arguments against god (or for naturalism) this is true in general and in the specific case of the resurrection .
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The difference is that the natural world demonstrably exist.
That has not been denied, but what naturalism claims is that *ONLY* the natural world exists.

There is no conclusive evidence for that claim………… therefore (using atheist logic) I have no burden proof, nor the obligation to show that “supernatural events” happen
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is impossible to tell, given that you haven’t provided a definition for evidence.

If we define evidence as “anything that moves the weiger in favor of a claim position or view….” Then there is plenty of evidence for both sides.

I don’t understand why atheist form this forum like to play semntaics and avoid the burden proof instead of developing arguments against god (or for naturalism) this is true in general and in the specific case of the resurrection .
For the natural world we could use the definition of scientific evidence It since the scientific method and scientific evidence are a very strong problem solving tool that appears to be a very good definition to use. Please note, the scientific method says nothing about the supernatural. It neither confirms or denies it. But it is far better at explaining events than supernatural explanations. Supernatural claims tend to be just claims at best. No one has made a serious attempt to make a formal study of the supernatural. I do not know of any rules of evidence for it which means that one cannot claim to have evidence for the supernatural.

One thing that you is necessary for evidence is the ability to cut both ways. And I simply do not see any "cutting" with the supernatural. I only see unsupported claims.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That has not been denied, but what naturalism claims is that *ONLY* the natural world exists.

There is no conclusive evidence for that claim………… therefore (using atheist logic) I have no burden proof, nor the obligation to show that “supernatural events” happen
A slap to your face would show you to be wrong.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No, you have been trying to claim what others are arguing. Not only me, but I have seen you do that to others as well. You always get it wrong.

No, if you misunderstood at best. Where did you get that from?

Nope. Again, you do tend to misunderstand others quite often. At least that is a small saving grace because it means that you were not lying about others.
Again,

The claim is that people don’t conclude that his brother resurrected because they saw someone that looks like him.

If you agree with this claim then we both agree (end of discussion)

If you disagree, then you have a burden proof , and you have to show that sometimes people claim that his brother resurrected because they saw someone that looks like him

Or you can do what you always, “claim to disagree” and find an excuse for avoid the burden proof.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
For the natural world we could use the definition of scientific evidence It since the scientific method and scientific evidence are a very strong problem solving tool that appears to be a very good definition to use. Please note, the scientific method says nothing about the supernatural. It neither confirms or denies it. But it is far better at explaining events than supernatural explanations. Supernatural claims tend to be just claims at best. No one has made a serious attempt to make a formal study of the supernatural. I do not know of any rules of evidence for it which means that one cannot claim to have evidence for the supernatural.

One thing that you is necessary for evidence is the ability to cut both ways. And I simply do not see any "cutting" with the supernatural. I only see unsupported claims.
Again, you are still refusing to define evidence.

How can someone is X is evidence for Y?

You have avoided this question for years

I said that X is evidnece for Y, if X moves the wager in favor of Y and you rejected that defintion………………… so what do you mean by evidnece……….. why are you avoiding this question?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Again,

The claim is that people don’t conclude that his brother resurrected because they saw someone that looks like him.

Really? How do you know? And that has not been the claim about Jesus anyway so why does it matter? Do you know what a red herring is? This argument of yours is an example of that. You seem to have forgotten that you in no way showed that James the brother of Jesus ever claimed to have seen him. That was explained to you earlier today, again, when you first brought up the claim.

Since no one claimed that, except for you, this also makes this a strawman argument on your part.
If you agree with this claim then we both agree (end of discussion)

No, it is a misleading and errant claim. There is no agreeing with it or disagreeing with it. You should understand this. If you own up to making a poor argument then we can agree.


How did you ever misunderstand that in the way that you did?
If you disagree, then you have a burden proof , and you have to show that sometimes people claim that his brother resurrected because they saw someone that looks like him
Nope, no proof needed. All that was required was that your original error was needed to be pointed out. Also even if you wanted to use your argument against someone, the way that you phrased it you took on the burden of proof. You need to learn how to properly word your arguments. When you say "people don’t conclude that his brother resurrected because they saw someone that looks like him" You have just taken on the burden of proof. You are wrong on several levels, as usual.
Or you can do what you always, “claim to disagree” and find an excuse for avoid the burden proof.
Now, now, when you screw up it is very rude to make false accusations against others. You repeatedly made errors with your argument. That is your fault. Don't blame others when the mistakes were yours and yours alone.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Again, you are still refusing to define evidence.

How can someone is X is evidence for Y?

You have avoided this question for years

I said that X is evidnece for Y, if X moves the wager in favor of Y and you rejected that defintion………………… so what do you mean by evidnece……….. why are you avoiding this question?
No, I told you what standard of evidence that could be used. It is well defined. If you did not understand the definition you should have owned up to that fact. So once more you are blaming others for something that you should know. You could have admitted that you do not undertand the definition of scientific evidence and I would have gladly explained to you . But when you make false charges about others and rudely say that they have done something that they have not they do not have to explain anything to you.

Own up to your errors and I will gladly give you ore details.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
So you think it's impossible for the universe to have always existed in some form, but totally possible (and very likely) for a god to have always existed in some form? Can you explain how that makes sense?

Material changes and requires time to exist in. God is a spirit and does not change or require time to exist and live.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
How do you know any of that? Do you realize that the most popular version of the Big Bang Theory has time beginning with the Big Bang? That means that the universe has always existed.

So it is something that neither I nor anyone else knows. It is what I believe, just as I believe that the universe and life was created and designed and did not just happen all by itself.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So it is something that neither I nor anyone else knows. It is what I believe, just as I believe that the universe and life was created and designed and did not just happen all by itself.
There is evidence for abiogenesis. There does not appear to be evidence for a god meddling. But one can believe whatever one wants. But one should try to understand the difference between beliefs and knowledge.
 
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