TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Yes it isSeeing Big Foot isn’t a subjective experience.
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Yes it isSeeing Big Foot isn’t a subjective experience.
Granted, given that definition, there is no evidence for the supernatural........but there is no evidence for evolution (common ancestry) ether (given that definition)
Your definition is too restrictive
, you should substitude the words "excusivley matches" for softer words......
..otherwise there wouldn't be evidence for anything.
Nice shift
, I personally have no idea how to define" supernatural "
but you are suppose to offer such definition.
You are the one who claims that there is no evidence for the supernatural
you are the pne who has to offer a definition
The suggestion of the OP is that the resurection is the best explanation for the "bed rock facts"
I already did.Your burden is to provide an alternative explanation and explain why is that a better explanation.
Whether if you whant to label the resurection as a supernatural event or not is just a matter of semantics
Independent from what?No independent supporting historical records for the existence of Jesus nor the resurrection
Well supposedly this conversation is about the cause if the big bang, so the "rules" of the clasical universe are irrelevantBecause the "metaphysical brainfart opinions" of "some" no-named "writers" is irrelevant to what is observable, demonstrable and factual.
I don't care about "philosophers".
The consensus among scientists is that causality is a phenomenon of the (classical) physics of the universe and temporal in nature.
This is what we observe and can demonstrate.
Its a fake argument, there were no historians writing about a great many people who lived in that age and or what they wrote is lost! Jewish historians or "journalists" certainly had no desire to write about Jesus! Great forces inside Judaism were trying to erase him! They thought that by killing Jesus their periblems with him would be gone! They were only just beginning because Jesus wasn't on trial before his enemies, THEY were on trial before God!Independent from what?
Maybe , but that has nothing to do with what you defined as "evidence"That is completely false.
Evolution makes testable predictions.
There's a huge body of independently verifiable facts that demonstrably match those predictions.
And I mean HUGE.
You couldn't have picked a worse example to make your silly point.
Evolution as a scientific idea has probably the largest body of verifiable facts supporting it then any other idea in science.
That is false. I would agree that common asestry is by far what better fits with the nested hierarchical structures but *exclusivley* is a very strong word.For example, the nested hierarchical structure of DNA exclusively supports evolution theory.
Well supposedly this conversation is about the cause if the big bang
They are not. You can't invoke the physics of the universe and pretend they apply in a context without said universe., so the "rules" of the clasical universe are irrelevant
Independent from what?
And another strawmen drivel argument.Its a fake argument, there were no historians writing about a great many people who lived in that age and or what they wrote is lost! Jewish historians or "journalists" certainly had no desire to write about Jesus! Great forces inside Judaism were trying to erase him! They thought that by killing Jesus their periblems with him would be gone! They were only just beginning because Jesus wasn't on trial before his enemies, THEY were on trial before God!
Its funny, the same people who argue the lack of scholars or historians present is some sort of proof will also claim that hundreds of millions of years ago lightning struck a puddle of water, proteins popped out and life fell up hill to the point of conscious man!
Well, the alternative to cause+effect is randomness,3:6.5 (53.3) It is a great blunder to humanize God, except in the concept of the indwelling Thought Adjuster, but even that is not so stupid as completely to mechanize the idea of the First Great Source and Center.” UB 1955
Sorry, but this is simply not the case.The study of historical events like the resurrection remains a complex and ongoing discourse in academia.
It has everything to do with it, as it 100% matches what "evidence" is as I defined it.Maybe , but that has nothing to do with what you defined as "evidence"
That is false.
I would agree that common asestry is by far what better fits with the nested hierarchical structures but *exclusivley* is a very strong word.
A crazy conspiracy theory where scientists are lieyng and making up stuff for no apparent reason would also explain the data.
This is why your definition of evidence is too restrictive.... no obvervation is exclusive for a specific hypothesis.
Because there are other well defined reasons for why you might want to buy dog food.A trival example
If you find me at walmart abd you note that I have dog food in my kart
Would that be evidence that I have a dog? (Yes)
Does that observation fits *exlusivley* to the hypothesis that I have a dog (No)
Therefore your definition fails.
God is first cause. Within the evolution of life is a purposive potential. Potential has always been supreme over the actual at any moment in time for evolving life. The craving for perfection is a fingerprint of the creator of life.Well, the alternative to cause+effect is randomness,
So which is it for God?
Which means truth is spoken and the Atheist has an allergic reaction to truth!And another strawmen drivel argument.
You said god had detectable manifestation. This implies that you can distinguish an existing god from a non-existing one.
Please explain how this can be done, instead of rambling on how it can not be done....
Science also doesn't say that the undetectable dragon that follows me everywhere I go doesn't exist either....
But the question is how do I distinguish said dragon from one that doesn't exist.
So how do I distinguish your supposedly existing god with supposed detectable manifestation from a non-existing god?
The universe exists and it is finite into the past. So it seems like a given that it began somehow in some way.
Not "somehwere".
"Where" is a place in space.
"When" is a moment in time.
If you remove the universe, aka the space-time continuum, then both space and time go out the window.
Yes, our minds can't really comprehend what that means.
Yet, here we are.
This is the dificulty of the frontier of physics. It is so much out of our daily common experience that we don't even have proper english words to express such things.
Because our language is completely geared towards temporality and the notion of "places". But neither exists if you remove the universe.
So really, these notions can only be (somewhat) properly expressed in math.
Yes, it's confusing, I know... I hate it too. And love it at the same time, LOL
But yeah... when it comes to the idea of a multi-verse in a context where the universe doesn't exist... there is no "there" there, nor is there a "when".
Or at least not in the way we understand those terms.
Or perhaps the multi-verse itself is another giant "parent" space-time bubble within which new space-time bubbles form... perhaps in black holes or something. I once read some crazy mind bending theory like that. It had a crazy conceptual image illustrating this but sadly I can't find it anymore.
In any case, all this is speculation and the fact is that we simply don't know.
The fact simply is that words and concepts like "where" and "when" only really make sense within the confines of our space-time bubble called the universe.
I don't make that claim. Neither does science to my knowledge.
But it is certainly true that we only have evidence of this universe.
Although we also have some rather solid theories that somewhat predict things like multi-verses.
You started this post by saying that god has detectable manifestation.
Are you backpeddling already?
Strawmen arguments are logical fallacies.Which means truth is spoken and the Atheist has an allergic reaction to truth!
God has all sorts of ways of revealing Himself to people.
You will need to allow the dragon to reveal itself to you if it wants to, but you need to stay open to the possibility that the dragon might do that.
Just not at T=0 and not before T=0 and not after T=0.
So you don't know when or how.
It seems like just speculation that if this universe is removed then all of space and time also don't exist
in another space time universe.
And as you said, the fact is that we simply don't know. Think Monty Python's Flying Circus.
We only have evidence for this universe but that does not eliminate the existence of anything else.
No, just saying that we cannot even find any more life in this universe other than on earth
so why would we think that we can find God through looking.
You mean: people who engage in self-brainwashing and confirmation bias. Who paint the bullseye around the arrow. Who pretend to have the answers before even asking the questions. Who start from an assumed conclusion.Seek and you shall find is true, but that is true for people who are willing to seek
The alternative being to look under non-existing rocks?in more ways than to keep looking under real rocks.
For it to matter that God was first cause, everything else would have to happen as a result of that, But that's true if you're omniscient and omnipotent too, nothing can happen without your entire approval and intention.God is first cause. Within the evolution of life is a purposive potential. Potential has always been supreme over the actual at any moment in time for evolving life. The craving for perfection is a fingerprint of the creator of life.
"Critical scholars recognize sources are not reliable and one must be skeptical to get history from them."
Most People Have No Clue What The Gospels Are!
10:09 Did the disciples write the Gospels, no, historical evidence says no. There are very good reasons how this is known. They do not claim to be eyewitnesses and written by very high level Greek writing. The illiterate people in the story were not the writers.
12:35 Did the Gospel authors care about what actually happened. -
The Gospels contain historical information and they contain legendary information.
14:40 Can we trust the canonical Gospels? Gospels date probably from 40-65 years after Jesus death. NT writers would not have known eyewitnesses but may have sources who knew stories.
These stories have been passed down for many many years. Each writer probably thought they were writing the “one” Gospel.
1:45 Critical scholars recognize sources are not reliable and one must be skeptical to get history from them.
1:57 The Gospels are not pretending to be history, they are making some proclamation about Jesus. So to read them just as history is a bit silly, it’s like trying to read David Copperfield as history. You can get some history out of that but…it’s fiction.
The Gospels have legend in them. They are important books and not without some history.
3:04 There are atheist scholars, like me. You don’t just trash works because of legends. You try to find out what’s history.
3:45 Fundamentalists say “there can be nothing wrong in the Gospels”, conspirators atheists say “there can be nothing right”, both sides are not correct.
4:55 What scholars do is analyze the sayings of Jesus and try to figure out what is real or fiction.
7:10 Storytellers were making up sayings for Jesus after his death.
What are you referring to as detectable manifestations? Detectable by what methods?
At present, the only 'detectable' anything is by scientific methodology. This is the reason science CANNOT say whether God exists or not.
I try and keep things simple. One definition most common is our universe that began(?) with the expansion of matter and energy from a singularity or in some way cyclic. I do not like the term 'Big Bang,' There was no Bang. ALL the current hypotheses or models of our early universe are based on the existence of a Quantum World where a singularity formed or a cyclic expansion took place. The concept of T-0 is a beginning where the three or more dimensional space and time as we know it on a large scale began to exist.
There are many unanswered questions, and most of the indirect evidence is based on math models and Quantum Mechanics fit well withe alternate scientific views of the early universe, and what has been theoretically possible is a boundless universe,
Is the age of the Universe "boundless"?
I was reading this Quora post, and it seems to say that the late, great Stephen Hawking has proven this. https://www.quora.com/Have-scientists-disproved-Stephen-Hawkings-theories-of-the-universe His work in both areas has shown that time is boundless in both directions, both forwards and...www.physicsforums.com
Note, btw, that Hawking's actual proposal for a universe being "boundless" in the past, which was called the "no boundary" proposal, was not that the universe had existed for an infinite time in the past, but that the spacetime geometry of the very early universe was such that "time" had no meaning there and there was no starting boundary. Basically, instead of the geometry of the universe either extending infinitely into the past or having an "edge" at an initial singularity, it would be more like a hemisphere joined to an expanding cone, with the join being something like the big bang (or possibly the start of inflation). The "expanding cone" part is the part which can be viewed as a conventional expanding universe. The "hemisphere" part is the "no boundary" part, where "time" is not a meaningful concept--it doesn't extend infinitely into the past (since the hemisphere is finite), but it also has no boundary (since the hemisphere has no edge anywhere). AFAIK this proposal is not currently considered a contender for a valid model of the universe. But I'm not familiar with the details of why it is not.
The other 'universe is the physical existence that contains our universe and all possible universes.