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Historical Jesus

arthra

Baha'i
What facts about Jesus do we have, from a scientific point of view?
I think 3 authors mention him: Flavius Josephus, Tacitus and the 3rd I forgot.
What did Jesus really say and what is only attributed to him?

Being a Comparative Religion board here I would say we Baha'is accept that there was a historical Jesus but we are unsure of how accurately His words were transcribed... since He spoke Aramaic and is not believed to have written anything. An oral tradition was passed down and later translated intto Koine Greek. We do believe the Gospels are inspired and should be interpreted in a spiritual sense.

I responded to another topic a short time ago and had several points regarding the issue of historicity of Jesus:

Proof of the diety of Jesus?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The Bible we have today is essentially exactly what was read by the early church Christians.

The early church was a worshiping community before the Gospel was written. The NT is a product of the Church. As for a bodily resurrection, that would be a resuscitation. In the 'appearances' He is unrecognizable by his own apostles.

Your third question is based on whether the NT documents had been altered during the 2000 years from the original.

The question goes back to the evangelists who wrote. What may have been placed on the lips of Jesus by them, guided by the promised Paraclete, and what may be the authentic words of Jesus. This is the task of the exegetes. As for the copyists, as of yet they were not dealing with Scripture, but the Memoirs of the Apostles.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
What facts about Jesus do we have, from a scientific point of view?
I think 3 authors mention him: Flavius Josephus, Tacitus and the 3rd I forgot.
What did Jesus really say and what is only attributed to him?

We don't have any scientific facts.
No one that wrote about Jesus was an eyewitness to him.

There is a BIG difference between something being true, and someone wanting it to be true.
 

SpiritQuest

The Immortal Man
What facts about Jesus do we have, from a scientific point of view?
I think 3 authors mention him: Flavius Josephus, Tacitus and the 3rd I forgot.
What did Jesus really say and what is only attributed to him?

Creation stories like those in the bible, other books, and oral traditions are allegories that impart spiritual wisdom and understanding. There probably was a real Jesus but the exact details of his biography have been lost in time. The Gospel stories are also allegories for the inner Christ, spiritual awakening and enlightenment. When the baby Christ is born in you, that is the virgin birth. When your consciousness is raised, that is the resurrection and ascension. Perhaps there is something about each person that is absolute, eternal, and never dies, even if the ego-personality perishes after the physical body ceases to function. Everyone is on their own spiritual quest to discover the answers.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What facts about Jesus do we have, from a scientific point of view?
I think 3 authors mention him: Flavius Josephus, Tacitus and the 3rd I forgot.
What did Jesus really say and what is only attributed to him?
Assuming the historiography ought to be considered one of the sciences (rather than belonging to the humanities), then non-Christian sources are a lucky happenstance but are entirely unnecessary. If we had only a letter of two from Paul and some fragments from one of the canonical gospels, we would have more historical evidence for what said and did than for virtually anybody from antiquity.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Gary Habermas has a set of core beliefs about Jesus accepted very broadly by historians
( his "Minimal Facts" approach audios are at Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ )
- Jesus existed
- Jesus died
- Jesus was buried
- the tomb was empty
- his followers believed Jesus was resurrected

His free eBook is here Evidence for the Historical Jesus is here
"...This book addresses the questions surrounding the debate over the historical Jesus and shows that there are a significant number of historical facts about Jesus in secular and non-New Testament sources which prove that the Jesus of history is the same Jesus of the Christian faith...."
Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

Of course the gospel accounts themselves are historical documents and
legal evidence expert Simon Greenleaf of Harvard Law School who wrote the definitive treatise on
the rules of historical evidence and contended that the gospels would be admissible in court
see these clips of various discussions on the John Ankerburg show
 
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james bond

Well-Known Member
This is true, in my experience - because the Abrahamic religions hinges on blind belief in alleged historical truths we cannot directly and personally know for ourselves.

On the other hand, Taoism, Hinduism, and early/Theravada Buddhism are based on observation of and conformity with reality that is present in the here and now which we can know for ourselves.

Ah.. the only truth is the one one experiences eh?
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Ah.. the only truth is the one one experiences eh?
No, but there is no reason to hedge my eternal destiny on a single - allegedly "historical" - story I don't know & cannot verify for myself. Not to mention that there are a multitude of other, similar savior stories that all vie for similar attention and my loyalty.

I'd rather stick to Reality as I personally know it for myself, in the here and now; and that for me, is early Buddhism, the system which explains Reality to my fullest satisfaction.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
The people who keep going on about eyewitnesses have evidently never studied the principles of historical method. There are plenty of historical figures of whom we have no eyewitness accounts, such as Pythagoras, Confucius, and Boudicca, but no-one questions their existence.

Josephus, for example, wrote about 60 years after the crucifixion. To dismiss his account would be like refusing to read a book about Hitler because it was written in the 1990s.

The New Testament is also an historical document, and its parts can be examined for evidence of authenticity, both internal and external. The evidence for Mark's gospel (excluding the addition at the end) and those Pauline letters that have a consistent style and vocabulary is quite good.

The upshot is that we can say there was a preacher called Jesus of Nazareth who was executed by the Romans. After his death his body vanished from his tomb and his followers, who had accepted him as the promised Messiah, claimed he had risen from the dead.

Note that the first Christians did not say that had seen him after his resurrection: Paul and the authentic text of Mark do not claim that and the other gospels cannot be shown to be by eyewitnesses.

Nor did they say he was the son of God. If they had, Josephus would have mentioned it, to say nothing of Mark and Paul. Paul even described Jesus as "physically" descended from David, which implies that he was the son of Joseph.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Note that the first Christians did not say that had seen him after his resurrection: Paul and the authentic text of Mark do not claim that and the other gospels cannot be shown to be by eyewitnesses.

Paul states he has 'handed on to you, only what has been handed on to him.' Paul writes within the lifetime of the Apostles, (James, Peter, I don't think we may assume that all eye witnesses had yet died off. Paul refers to going 'up to Jerusalem to consult with the 'apostles' James, John and Chepas. Scripture, thought they differ on number and kind, testifies that there were 'appearances' of the risen Jesus. As far as the titles, (God, Son of God, Messiah etc) they express the Christology employed by the Evangelist represent a second generation. The first written work is from Thessalonians,
written possible only 20 years after the D/R. This is the time of oral tradition, in which I think there did exist eye witnesses.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
No, but there is no reason to hedge my eternal destiny on a single - allegedly "historical" - story I don't know & cannot verify for myself. Not to mention that there are a multitude of other, similar savior stories that all vie for similar attention and my loyalty.

I'd rather stick to Reality as I personally know it for myself, in the here and now; and that for me, is early Buddhism, the system which explains Reality to my fullest satisfaction.

You do not have to understand right away and verify for yourself. All you have to do is have faith that God exists. That's it and see where it takes you. In a Christians case, it will lead you to John 3:16. I think that's most Christians starting point.

The only reason I can see for God, in a Christian's case Jesus, besides we wouldn't be here without the Creator is for someone to judge how one has lived their life. It's something that we inherently understand because we are like God.

Just today, I heard a Buddhist explain that one can practice another religion and still practice Buddhism because it is a philosophy and way of life like yoga.
 

JohnAmes

Member
Between -0- and 40 c.e. (the years Jesus was alive, basically)
Caligula, Agrippa, and Herod were basically colonizer client kings.
They were anti-religious.

So according to the non-gospel historical works
There were some mass-scale riots and uprisings

It seems Jesus wasn't that integral or powerful, politically.
(I can't think of any religious preachers that have been impactful in that respect since.
Pat Robertson?, the Pope? any Islamists?)

Jesus was kind of a bum, no education, no nothing.
could you imagine a street preacher, preaching to a mainstream church, with no education
in the modern age?

If we took the very personal gospel tradition out of the equation, the gospel characters
really had absolutely no impact on the political situations of the time period.

You might all agree, that it could be assumed, that John the Baptist was almost feared more
than Jesus in that time frame.(both in the gospels and outside)

If it weren't for the gospel claim of Jesus being god reincarnate..... Would these traditions
even have survived?

Picture two radical islamic preachers being enshrined in future literature as gods....or whatever
thats how I relate it
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
You do not have to understand right away and verify for yourself. All you have to do is have faith that God exists ...
Why should I have faith that "God" exists, and then in the Christian form of Jesus?

Just today, I heard a Buddhist explain that one can practice another religion and still practice Buddhism because it is a philosophy and way of life like yoga.
I agree that Buddhism is a systematic investigation into Reality and its Laws, and in that sense it is a philosophy of life. However, as I've discovered, once I've come to personal understanding of these Laws, the idea of adhering to dogma which teaches things contrary to those Laws - such as Christianity - becomes far less appealing and more unreasonable.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That's a load of poppycock!! Buddhism has the same issues of believability that Christianity does, except the Buddha's story wasn't written down for 500 years.

In Buddhism the thing that is hard to believe is that enlightenment exists and is attainable, this is no less of a big deal than believing that Jesus is divine, or worthy of worship.
Why do you have to believe anything. For example Buddhism says you should meditate and live in a certain way and your lived experience would change in a certain manner. Do and find out if it's true or not. You do not need to believe in Einstein to test Relativity. Same is the case here.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The people who keep going on about eyewitnesses have evidently never studied the principles of historical method. There are plenty of historical figures of whom we have no eyewitness accounts, such as Pythagoras, Confucius, and Boudicca, but no-one questions their existence.

Josephus, for example, wrote about 60 years after the crucifixion. To dismiss his account would be like refusing to read a book about Hitler because it was written in the 1990s.

The New Testament is also an historical document, and its parts can be examined for evidence of authenticity, both internal and external. The evidence for Mark's gospel (excluding the addition at the end) and those Pauline letters that have a consistent style and vocabulary is quite good.

The upshot is that we can say there was a preacher called Jesus of Nazareth who was executed by the Romans. After his death his body vanished from his tomb and his followers, who had accepted him as the promised Messiah, claimed he had risen from the dead.

Note that the first Christians did not say that had seen him after his resurrection: Paul and the authentic text of Mark do not claim that and the other gospels cannot be shown to be by eyewitnesses.

Nor did they say he was the son of God. If they had, Josephus would have mentioned it, to say nothing of Mark and Paul. Paul even described Jesus as "physically" descended from David, which implies that he was the son of Joseph.
Josephus was writing about early Christians. Not Jesus.
 
No more or less evidence than it is today I would think.

Not really. Given the short period of time and relatively rapid spread, it is much more likely to have been a movement based around an actual leader than a myth that has developed out of thin air.

Also if this leader was someone else who simply made up Jesus then you wouldn't find such convoluted and contradictory attempts to fit his backstory to Biblical prophecies as regards birthplace and bloodline.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Josephus, for example, wrote about 60 years after the crucifixion. To dismiss his account would be like refusing to read a book about Hitler because it was written in the 1990s.
Please give me a title of a historical book on Hitler written during the 1990s that DOES NOT list its sources.
 
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