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Historicity Of Christ?

4consideration

*
Premium Member
***Mod Post***

Please keep RF rules in mind when posting, especially Rule 1.

1. Personal comments about Members and Staff

Personal attacks, and/or name-calling are strictly prohibited on the forums. Speaking or referring to a member in the third person, ie "calling them out" will also be considered a personal attack. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
That is so wrong it is almost a waste of time to try and show it wrong. I will give a few examples.

1. Forensic coroners who examined the medical description of what took place on the cross say it is a textbook medically perfect claim.
So what? Thousands of crucifixions took place - they knew what happens, what is your point?
2. The argument over whether a census would require people to return home was settled by a Egyptian census ordered by Rome in 1st century AD that required that exact thing.
3. The burial practices known to historians concerning Rome's crucifixions is textbook.
Again - so what? Crucifixion was commonplace. what is your point?
4. Every single obscure Roman official title has been proven correct in the book of Luke.
5. Entire museums are full of artifacts from cultures the bible said existed and the historians said never had.
6. The four major historical justifications for Christianity (his appearance on the historical stage with claims of theological authority, his crucifixion, his empty tomb, and his post mortem appearances) form a NT historical consensus among scholars regardless of their faith.
7. 50 biblical names from just one cache of scroll seals.
8. David's name on a Stella from a temple that supposedly never existed.

I can post lists like this by the hundreds, I can give historians by the dozen that claim the exact opposite from what you have, and the bible is a primary archeological text.
Well I do not doubt that you could post 100 more such irrelevancies - but why? What would be the point?
BTW it is also extremely arrogant to claim that people every bit as smart about historical and textual issues as Newton, Sandage, and Vilenkin are about scientific issues can't tell historical validity from textual integrity. DR White, N. T. Wright and hundreds just like them have forgotten more about history and textual studies than we will ever know. I think they know the difference.

Of course I don't think that, I know it for a fact.

The primary text on Caesar was written by Caesar and is well known to have been written for propaganda purposes. Not that we even have a single early copy for his Gallic wars. The oldest copy we have is from 900 years later and we have a grand total of two I think. His Civil wars is in far worse shape. It does not even appear on extant ancient works lists. I have never found another authoritative work on Caesar in ancient history. Even if you through in a few more (like some of the plays about Caesar) the bible still has better attestation for Christ by factors of hundreds of times over.

Since you seem to be unfair with the texts on either person here is a link to a comparison.
Manuscript Attestation For The New Testament

You need to first demonstrate you have the slightest experience in the fields you discuss before you should make these instructions concerning who should read what. My bible was worked on by over 100 NT scholars. They came to agree on every single author traditionally credited with authorship. The only book there was any serious disagreement on is Hebrews, which just so happens to be the most accurate book. I can find you a hundred sites that state the historical reasons to credit authorship with the traditional authors. In fact the earliest sources are also the most emphatic on that issue. I can reconstruct 95% on the NT and derive every single author from early church writings alone. No bible I have even heard of states up front that no one knows who wrote the NT books. Some do point out the less that perfect information authorship is based on but for a 2000 year old text that is better than expected. It simply appears you have almost no experience in these matters. Nothing you have said is even close to fact. The consensus among NT historians, Textual critics, accepted commentaries, almost all early church fathers, and 200 years of church scrutiny grant traditional authorship.


Says a random poster in a forum who apparently knows little of these matters about a tomb sealed by contemporary Romans for life and death readings plus Joseph who buried Christ, plus every apostle, and every early church authority through Constantine's mother. This is also a historical conclusion granted by most NT historians. I guess you got vision and the rest of the world is wearing blinders (including every single person who was there). Do you know what a revisionist is? You ought to, you are one.

I have no expectation of finding a Roman record for one of thousands of criminals executed in a minor Roman backwater 2000 years ago. In fact I should expect to have no record from anyone. Yet I have independent eyewitness testimony and independent testimony gained from eye witnesses of it, and the evidence is so strong for it, it has changed the world more than any other event. But don't take my word for it.

Sir Edward Clarke, K. C. to the Rev. E. L. Macassey:
"As a lawyer I have made a prolonged study of the evidences for the events of the first Easter Day. To me the evidence is conclusive, and over and over again in the High Court I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. Inference follows on evidence, and a truthful witness is always artless and disdains effect. The Gospel evidence for the resurrection is of this class, and as a lawyer I accept it unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts they were able to substantiate."

Professor Thomas Arnold, cited by Wilbur Smith, was for 14 years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of a famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the char of Modern History at Oxford, and certainly a man well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said: "The evidence for our LORD's life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad.

Wilbur Smith writes of a great legal authority of the last century. He refers to John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history "I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection has never broken down yet."

Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901), English scholar who was appointed regius professor at Cambridge in 1870, said: "Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of if."
Clifford Herschel Moore, professor at Harvard University, well said, "Christianity knew its savior and redeemer not as some god whose history was contained in a mythical faith, with rude, primitive, and even offensive elements...Jesus was a historical not a mythical being. No remote or foul myth obtruded itself of the Christian believer; his faith was founded on positive, historical, and acceptable facts."

Since obviously legal scholars like these or Greenleaf who literally created legal standards had no idea what evidence or testimony was how about some scientists. Were Newton, Galileo, Maxwell, Da Vinci, Faraday, Bacon, Kepler, Descartes, Gascendi or the rest of the Christians which won almost 80% of the Nobel's in history who also believed the gospels in need of you to straighten them out?

However if science and law is not enough just pick a relevant discipline to be wrong about and I will show in their words just how wrong. How about forensic coroners, archeology, or even philosophy and cosmology?
What of them?
We have 5 independent records (at least two from eyewitnesses, and two from the testimony of witnesses) exactly how many do you expect for a 1st century crucifixion in a minor silk road province? Plus billions of testimonies that depend on those events to have occurred just as recorded.

LOL indeed.

No, you have ZERO witnesses, not 5.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The point of all Gospel writers was the ceremonial Jewish practices no longer had any application what so ever.

You must show that their being written in stages (first you have to prove they were), somehow makes them less that reliable.


You have obviously missed the point. It in no way makes them less reliable. You must interpret the Gospels from a literalist
mindset. Many people do.

That is not he order they were written in. It was part of Paul, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John,

There is scholarly consensus that Mark is before Matthew then Luke and John. Paul did not write a gospel. He wrote epistles.

The core of Christianity concerns what Christ did and what that means, not Christology.


And just what do you think Christology is?

Christology is the field of study within Christian theology which is primarily concerned with the nature and person of Jesus Christ as recorded in the canonical Gospels and the epistles of the New Testament
As such Christology is concerned with the details of Jesus' ministry his acts and teachings to arrive at a clearer understanding of who he is in his person and his role in salvation.


since John wrote last he concentrated on events and conclusions not given in the previous gospels, another that John waited until the other writers were gone because what he revealed would have made them even more a set of outlaws than they were previously thought,

You must be making this up as you go.

John perhaps give the clearest insight into Christology in his portrait of Jesus. Compare the Passion narratives. Jesus on the cross is not lifted to his death, but lifted to his glory.


The point of all Gospel writers was the ceremonial Jewish practices no longer had any application what so ever.


The earliest followers of Jesus were Jews, they continued to attend the synagogue for reading of Scripture and met in their homes for Eucharist.


Heck even the councils and almost all creedal statements agree with me.


Are you referring to the Apostles Creed? The one that states belief in God, belief in Jesus, his Son, our Lord, belief in the Holy Spirit? There you have it, the Trinity.


The NT scholars are all on my side


Only if you are reading apologetics as your sole reference.





 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I should perhaps rephrase to "a discussed question".
Though in looking: yes, my recollection of the controversy does appear to be different in scope than the reality; and consensus seems to fall well in favor.

Attached is my undergrad paper on the matter, complete with all and any errors in grammar, spelling, etc. The "works cited" pages are somewhere, but I didn't think them important enough to dig up unless asked. The main point is that this paper (which, again, is the work of an undergrad for a secondary major) presents a summary of historical Socrates research from the 1700s onward in four different modern languages (and two ancient). Nobody thought Socrates a fiction of Plato, still less is this true:
Your post has been reported for "as usual".[/QUOTE]
There's a widely held belief that he didn't exist either but rather was the invention of Plato.


That said: It is indeed discussed by historians. For example: in *refuting* the claim that Socrates was in invention of Plato, Jacques-Louis David says in his 1787 work The Death of Socrates

In his painting? You're citing what is "said" in a painting now?

"It is this questioning technique that seems to be specific to Socrates, and not Plato – and thus the father of philosophy does not seem to be Plato’s invention after all."

Your claiming these words were in Jacques-Louis David's La Mort de Socrate? Where in his painting are they?

From the wiki entry
:\
I cover this and more in greater detail in the attached, and it is but an undergrad paper. It is, however, relevant in several ways.
 

Attachments

  • the quest for the historical socrates.pdf
    294.3 KB · Views: 119

JerryL

Well-Known Member
In his painting? You're citing what is "said" in a painting now?
Misunderstood the page layout. That was Philip Coppens.

It's essentially impossible to offer definitive proof on the matter, but it's unlikely that Socrates was merely a figment of Plato's imagination.

The primary evidence in this regard is the fact that multiple independent sources make reference to him in various ways. For example, the philosopher Xenophon of Athens was a student and admirer of Socrates, who dedicated himself to the preservation of Socrates's wisdom.

Specifically, in the Anabasis, Xenophon writes of asking Socrates for advice regarding his entrance into the service of Cyrus when he was a young man. Socrates is reported to have advised him to consult the oracle of Delphi, and later chastising Xenophon for the question he ultimately decided to ask (one that betrayed his mind had already been made up to go).

Additionally, the Memorabilia—itself a collection of Socratic dialogues—is notable for containing Xenophon's extended defense of his mentor. He argues that Socrates was innocent of the charges levied against him, and describes how Socrates benefitted not only his friends, but all Athenians.

It has even been argued that Xenophon's later exile from Athens was motivated (at least in part; his support for Athens's rival Sparta at Coronea unquestionably had something to do with it as well) by his support for Socrates.

Of course, some of Xenophon's writings have come under scrutiny for their historical reliability, much as you've noted that Plato's writings have. And ultimately, this debate is probably unresolvable. But it does seem quite unlikely that both Plato and Xenophon would make up the same figure and agree about many of the details of his life.

Beyond the realm of philosophy, the playwright Aristophanes claimed to have known Socrates. His comedy, the Clouds, features Socrates as a character. But it goes without saying that plays, and especially comedies, are an unreliable source of historical information. The Clouds has come under particularly heavy criticism by scholars because it appears that its "Socrates" character is actually a bricolage of many different fifth-century intellectuals. (For more on this view, see in particular, the discussion in the introduction of Kenneth Dover's 1968 translation of Clouds.)
 
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JerryL

Well-Known Member
"All our information about him is second-hand and most of it vigorously disputed" - Socrates (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

That said: I'm done with the Socrates off-topic discussion. My original statement was wrong (I confused old discussions of historical-vs-fictional depictions of Socrates with an argument over the existence of him). But since this is a thread about Jesus, I don't see that we are gaining anything productive by continuing on Socrates (unless we wish to compare/contrast the support for the two.. which was the original point I was making).
 
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tomteapack

tomteapack
[QUOTE="LegionOnomaMoi, post: 3136109, member: 35259"biblicaljrsus more evidence for the historical person of Jesus than for most ancient figures. That said, sorting out the legend from the facts is a difficult (perhaps insurmountable) problem. There are very few facts about the historical person of Jesus which are virtually uncontested by the academic community.[/QUOTE]
Actually there is no valid factual evidence that the biblical ,Jesus existed, only second hand tales at best. There exists not a single word know to be written by anyone that may have known him. There is no evidence in any known record of the time showing he existed. Oh, funny that there is evidence that Pilate existed and for some other characters mentioned in the bible, but none for Jesus.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
[QUOTE="LegionOnomaMoi, post: 3136109, member: 35259"biblicaljrsus more evidence for the historical person of Jesus than for most ancient figures. That said, sorting out the legend from the facts is a difficult (perhaps insurmountable) problem. There are very few facts about the historical person of Jesus which are virtually uncontested by the academic community.
Actually there is no valid factual evidence that the biblical ,Jesus existed, only second hand tales at best. There exists not a single word know to be written by anyone that may have known him. There is no evidence in any known record of the time showing he existed. Oh, funny that there is evidence that Pilate existed and for some other characters mentioned in the bible, but none for Jesus.
When I want the opinion of someone who so obviously lacks anything remotely resembling familiarity with scholarship and academia, let alone this topic, I'll use fortune cookies, as these would provide far more than your post.
 

tomteapack

tomteapack
Fortune cookies contain information, at least as valid as what you have posted.First stating that on thing in a book is factual, "proves" everything in book is also factual, is nonsense. Yes some things in the bible have factual independent verification. The existence of Pontius Pilate, being one that comes to mind.
Using the Gospels and Epistles as evidence e to support them self, is laughable. The fact is that with the possible exception of John of Patmos, we have no information confirming the identity of any authors of any writers of any part of the bible.
Oh, the last fortune cookie I opened said, "The ignorant claim knowledge where none exists".
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
When I want the opinion of someone who so obviously lacks anything remotely resembling familiarity with scholarship and academia, let alone this topic, I'll use fortune cookies, as these would provide far more than your post.
Such ad hominem attacks are not arguments. Can you respond to the argument here, rather than just attack the person?
 

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
Just a couple of historical points re the History and time-line of Yeshua ben Joseph
Herod, mentioned as desiring to kill him at his birth .... Came to Power around 40 BCE
died 4 BCE ..

Pontius Pilate,
In 26 A.D., Pilate was appointed as the prefect of the Roman provinces of Judaea, Samaria and Idumæa.

37 AD - Pontius Pilate's rule of Judea ends, He Crucifies Jesus

so we have two persons with 40 years between them who both featured in the life
of a person who reportedly died age 33 ?
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Now, as Atheists/Agnostics/any religion other than Christianity, do you believe that Christ was real historically? Not as in the Son of God, but as in a true historic figure.
.

From a historical perspective, I do. Historians have pieced together a lot of information relevant to building a case for Jesus' actual physical existence. But, the supernatural story that has been attached to him, I don't really believe, anymore.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
From a historical perspective, I do. Historians have pieced together a lot of information relevant to building a case for Jesus' actual physical existence. But, the supernatural story that has been attached to him, I don't really believe, anymore.
You put that very well - an accurate assessment.
As you say, there is a lot of information relevant to building a case for the historicity of Jesus. Which is a far more accurate than claiming that his historicity had been established to a high degree of certainty (such as when people claim it to have been better established than for any other figure in the ancient world - which is frankly just silly).
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
so we have two persons with 40 years between them who both featured in the life
of a person who reportedly died age 33 ?
It gets worse. The chronology in Luke has him born a full decade after the death of Herod. The Gospel authors were working from a lack of any real biographical details, especially for his early life, so they fill in the gaps with midrashic allusions to important personages from Hebrew myth, such as Moses. There's no way the slaughter of the infants mentioned in Matthew was intended to be taken as historical, as everyone would have known that didn't happen. The point is what it says about the character of Jesus and his significance, which is the main point of the Gospels, not historical fact.

There is no direct historical evidence for Jesus. There is some indirect evidence, to the point where most scholars assume the stories are based on a guy who actually lived, but that's very different from saying that the Jesus of the Gospels actually existed. They're highly mythologized texts with an agenda, not a glimpse into the facts of his life. Moreover, they were written by people who had never met him, with little more than an oral tradition to go on.

I think there's good reason to suspect there as a Jesus of Nazareth, which is pretty much the communis opinio. However, skepticism on that point is not unreasonable. It doesn't help that a lot of apologists make a lot of ludicrous claims. For example, many will refer to the empty tomb, which is not a historical fact to begin with; it's a trope that makes its way into the tradition with the Gospels (starting with Mark, then elaborated in the rest). Demanding that we must account for the empty tomb is rather like demanding that one account for the reports that Heracles ascended to heaven on his funeral pyre. But again, that comes from not appreciating the Gospels for what they are.
 
One of the most compelling arguments for the existence of an historic Jesus is the fact that Luke's Gospel goes to great effort to "justify" Jesus' birthplace (which was clearly Nazareth) by saying that Jesus was born in Bethlehem before moving to Nazareth. Jesus' ties to Nazareth presented a problem for the early Christians because, according to Jewish prophecy, the Messiah was to come from Bethlehem. If Jesus was a fictional man, the gospel writers would've saved themselves trouble and simply said he was born and raised in Bethlehem.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
This has been addressed ad nauseam. Have you tried the forum's search function?

Research is good. Have you tried the forum's search function?
I can't help it, I have to say this even though the above is an old post. Hopefully, Vyruufin won't mind. ^^^^^^^ This is the funniest post I've read in a week. :D
 
I believe there was a historical Jesus who maybe was a good preacher who got himself killed preaching against the religious fundamentalists of his day and then his followers embellished the details with a lot of fantastic miracles and legends. That's a simple enough explanation to me and I don't see any reason not to believe there was a human Jesus behind the legends. And I just feel like the Christ Myth theory opens itself up to a lot of other presumptions and its own set of unproven theories.
 

Sargon

New Member
Now, as Atheists/Agnostics/any religion other than Christianity, do you believe that Christ was real historically? Not as in the Son of God, but as in a true historic figure.

P.S Please do some research about the subject if you are not very knowledgable about it.
Extensive research has already been done and this is a closed subject, not a matter of belief or non-belief. It has become a matter of historical fact that The Christ, or Jesus of Nazareth, or Jesus bar Joseph et. al. existed. If you need reference material, please inquire and I will be happy to steer you in the right direction.
 
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