Hitler, Nazis, and Religion

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think the blinding flash of the obvious that no one mentions is that politics and political entities are the ones responsible for atrocities like this. You can put lipstick on this pig, and try to call it religion, or atheism, or whatnot, but it is still politics and the political entities who are responsible.

I agree. People also skip the part about the actual psychology of these tyrants and simplify it to religion vs atheism. Hitler had an abusive father who use to beat his mother and he developed a messiah complex. Possibly brought on by the fact he thought his father may not have been his biological father and that he wished him dead and his father did die. He strongly associated Germany with his mother, the abused mother he couldn't defend as a
Child. He was also a masochist who derived sexual pleasure from being hit kicked and urinated on.
Religion is just one aspect.

 

[lunakilo]

Even the concept of "no God" can be psychologically treated as "a god" if you cling to that concept.

I am not sure what that has to do with my post

My point was that if someone say they are doing Gods work (or in some other way invoke God) you cannot simply on that statement claim that they are christian.
There are plenty of other gods around they could be referring to.

 

[oldbadger]

Personally, I fail to see how Hitler was significantly different from all those other megalomaniacs that convinced themselves that "god was on their side".

He even says so on Mein Kampf.

We've been here before......:yes:

I'm just going to follow and keep out of it

 

[crossfire]

I am not sure what that has to do with my post

It is in reference to this part of your post:

God is a word used about a lot of deities

Anyone can make a God out of any concept, which greatly increases the variety of "deities." (Or idols, depending on your perspective.)

My point was that if someone say they are doing Gods work (or in some other way invoke God) you cannot simply on that statement claim that they are christian.
There are plenty of other gods around they could be referring to.

True. Hence, the great variety of the different labels people will try to apply to the nazis to see if those labels will stick.

 

[LuisDantas]

Perhaps because, as the historian Doris Bergen put it, he believed (at least for all intents and purposes) he was god. Perhaps because most of those who believe that a Christian god is on there side do not pay lip-service to christian values and beliefs until they are in positions of power

I don't think that is an accurate statement, though.

Most dictators seem to in fact act pretty much as Hitler did, often enough with a considerable element of self-delusion of a divine mission. It happens sadly often in South America with the caudillos. It happened with Mussolini (who bloody created the Vatican as an autonomous State), with Franco, with Salazar, with Gadaffi, with Sadam Hussein, and it seems to me that leaving aside the limitations of their political power it happened with a lot of members of the Religious Right as well, including a former POTUS or three.

Hitler's political environment was unusual in that it was too receptive to dictatorial measures.

But the man itself was quite your run-of-the-mill caudillo, similar to his contemporaries Vargas, Franco, Mussolini...are Argentina's Peron and Portugal's Salazar of the same time period?

Those people are a dime a dozen and most are throughly convinced that they must "exert a firm hand for the good of the people". It is not at all unusual for them to also believe that God has chosen them for a divine mission.

A source I happened by recently tells me that Hitler went to a Catholic school when he was eight, joined the church choir and considered becoming a priest. It also claims that it had a pulpit with a swastika (from the coat of arms of former abbot Theodorich von Hagen).

Why should we chalk it all up to coincidence or falsehood? The evidence seems pretty conclusive and straightforward to me. If we are to label Hitler "not truly a Christian", why not go all the way and do the same to all of the (many) dictators and bad rulers who abused their power?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I don't think that is an accurate statement, though.

Most dictators seem to in fact act pretty much as Hitler did, often enough with a considerable element of self-delusion of a divine mission. It happens sadly often in South America with the caudillos. It happened with Mussolini (who bloody created the Vatican as an autonomous State), with Franco, with Salazar, with Gadaffi, with Sadam Hussein, and it seems to me that leaving aside the limitations of their political power it happened with a lot of members of the Religious Right as well, including a former POTUS or three.

Hitler's political environment was unusual in that it was too receptive to dictatorial measures.

But the man itself was quite your run-of-the-mill caudillo, similar to his contemporaries Vargas, Franco, Mussolini...are Argentina's Peron and Portugal's Salazar of the same time period?

Those people are a dime a dozen and most are throughly convinced that they must "exert a firm hand for the good of the people". It is not at all unusual for them to also believe that God has chosen them for a divine mission.

A source I happened by recently tells me that Hitler went to a Catholic school when he was eight, joined the church choir and considered becoming a priest. It also claims that it had a pulpit with a swastika (from the coat of arms of former abbot Theodorich von Hagen).

Why should we chalk it all up to coincidence or falsehood? The evidence seems pretty conclusive and straightforward to me. If we are to label Hitler "not truly a Christian", why not go all the way and do the same to all of the (many) dictators and bad rulers who abused their power?

And the question is why was hitler attracted to the idea of becoming a priest? I think it stems from the kind of relationship his parents had. He lived in a violent and tyrannical household which probably played a greater role in developing his messiah complex than religion itself.
Also his clingy obsessive relationship he had with his mother.

 

[LuisDantas]

And the question is why was hitler attracted to the idea of becoming a priest?

You would have to ask him, I suppose. I can hazard a guess or two, and I believe they were fairly usual reasons for the culture he lived in.

Do you believe they were not?

I think it stems from the kind of relationship his parents had. He lived in a violent and tyrannical household which probably played a greater role in developing his messiah complex than religion itself.

There is considerable disagreement about how Hitler was raised, but most sources seem to believe that he was fairly neglected by his father and either neglected or pampered by his mother. Out of the top of my mind I don't remember it being described as unusually violent or tyrannical, though.

He did have a sore lack of good role models (at least as I picture him), but not necessarily or even likely due to excessive violence.

But again, I'm not sure that qualifies as unusual, nor that it is particularly more decisive than his relationship with Christian churches.

Also his clingy obsessive relationship he had with his mother.

Hitler's father Alois had father issues of his own, that involved a literal difficulty at being acknowledged as his son. And then there was a lot of moving around during Hitler's formative years (something that I can personally state to be unhealthy). The poor guy just kept longing for acceptance and relevance and ended up looking for it in all the wrong places.

 

[Father Heathen]

The Nazis may have been Christian, but it was an overtly corrupted, twisted form of it.

 

[LuisDantas]

The Nazis may have been Christian, but it was an overtly corrupted, twisted form of it.

Undoubtedly. Which raises several important if unconfortable questions related to the need to tell such twisted forms from healthy ones.

 

[crossfire]

Undoubtedly. Which raises several important if unconfortable questions related to the need to tell such twisted forms from healthy ones.

I guess we'll just need to pass around copies of the Kalama Sutta! Healthy = absence of greed, hatred, and delusion.

 

[Flankerl]

1. Have a plan to become the leader of your country
2. Say loads of stuff to get into power
3. 70 years later people still talk about your obvious propaganda lies
4. ???
5. Profit


He was a politician. END OF STORY. Also early 20th century Germany and Austria were in no way like the USA of today.

If i were a mod here i'd ban anyone who starts these horrible threads.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why do you disapprove of these threads?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If i were a mod here i'd ban anyone who starts these horrible threads.

I'm not sure if that was a serious statement or attempted sarcasm. To simply dismiss Hitler and Hitler's success with "He was a politician. END OF STORY." strikes me as remarkable.

 

[LuisDantas]

But that is not really too far off the mark.

 

[Alceste]

What annoys me most about the effort by Christians to fob off the nazis onto some other belief system, or lack of belief in general (paganism or atheism) is the contemptuous underlying assumption that pagans or atheists must be capable of terrible things Christians could never do. If I recall, legion had also tried to fob off the witch hunts of the middle ages on "pagans" - this in a time when the catholic church was at the height of it's political and economic power, and literally wrote the book on identifying and punishing "witches".

The fact of the matter is, people are people, and the majority of us are capable of terrible things. Or enough of us, anyway, that for some unfathomable reason we still have wars, racism, political repression, etc. led by politicians of every belief system and none.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The fact of the matter is, people are people, and the majority of us are capable of terrible things.

Precisely. And until we come to grips with this fact, "Never Again" will remain empty rhetoric.

 

[Alceste]

Precisely. And until we come to grips with this fact, "Never Again" will remain empty rhetoric.

Absolutely.

 

[Flankerl]

I'm not sure if that was a serious statement or attempted sarcasm. To simply dismiss Hitler and Hitler's success with "He was a politician. END OF STORY." strikes me as remarkable.

There are exactly two kind of people who start these threads.

Christians: Hitler obviously wasnt a true christian and so on
Non-Christians(read crazy Atheists): Obviously he was a real christian

Usually these threads are started by USAmericans who start these kind of threads because there is this really amusing conflict within their country.


And yeah Hitler said a lot of stuff to get into office. He also said in early speeches that he wanted to finish off the reactionary elite. But after he finished off the left wing of the NSDAP he went into bed with the evil reactionary elite.

Its called being a politician.

 

[crossfire]

There are exactly two kind of people who start these threads.

Christians: Hitler obviously wasnt a true christian and so on
Non-Christians(read crazy Atheists): Obviously he was a real christian

Usually these threads are started by USAmericans who start these kind of threads because there is this really amusing conflict within their country.

Surprisingly, yes, and unsurprisingly, it's called politics!

And yeah Hitler said a lot of stuff to get into office. He also said in early speeches that he wanted to finish off the reactionary elite. But after he finished off the left wing of the NSDAP he went into bed with the evil reactionary elite.

Its called being a politician.

Whole-heartedly agree.

 

[WyattDerp]

Why cover for Christianity and why pretend that Hitler was not a Christian?

Because facts are more fun than bigotry and ignorance.