Holocaust

[Godless Dave]

The really scary and also tragic part of the Holocaust besides the genocide, torture, etc., is the fact that many in the German army were quote 'Christians' who didn't remember the part about killing being bad or were caught up in the whole way they got drafted.

It's important to remember that Hitler didn't invent anti-Semitism in Europe, it has been there since the Middle Ages, often encouraged by Christian leaders, Catholic and Protestant. Check out what Martin Luther had to say about Jewish people sometime. I'd search for it and quote it but it would make me nauseous.

 

[No*s]

Anti-semetism goes back further still...we can trace it back to Roman perceptions of Jews during their conflicts with them. Christianity didn't get along with them either, so then we have social and religious elements combining together .

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Yes - that you found it interesting and wanted to spread it suggests a good deal about you.

Unless maybe he was wanting to discuss the idiocy of such sites and theories and finds it interesting that there are people abhorrent enough to make them? (Or maybe I'm just trying to think the best of people... That gets me in trouble, every time.)

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Lately I have had this obsession with the Holocaust....I am reading everything I come across about it. I find myself asking 2 questions:

1) Why did it take so long for anyone to help the Jews?

2) How much of the information from the experiments is used on a daily basis by doctors, engineers, etc in today's society?

You have to understand the prevailing sentiment. Here were these people (who aren't 'us')heavily engaged in commerce,often at least middle class economically. You've always got people who think anyone who has a little bit of money has done it by nefarious means anyway. They're the ones who are pleased when a high flyer goes bankrupt, because they were obviously dodgy anyway. No-one honest has any money...the honest ones live in a caravan park and the government barely dishes out enough to pay for their cigarettes every month while the rich ******** feed on the blood of the masses. You get the idea, I'm sure.
But onto the people who had a little more sense. The Jewish shopkeepers gave their staff quotas. As long as you sold your quota, you kept your job. Say you worked in a shop that sold china. Your quota is 120 plates a month. It looks like yu're not going to make your quota, so you get a relative to come in and buy some plates off you. Your job is saved.
The only problem with this is that eventually everyone you know is stocked up to the gills with plates, and you don't make your quota. Kiss your job goodbye.
Obviously this didn't go down well with people, so a few broken windows and the Jews having their property confiscated wasn't going to garner much sympathy. A large part of the population figured they deserved it, and if they then had to get on a boat and leave penniless for somewhere else, well then that was the course of natural justice.
By the time the killing started in earnest what were people going to do? It wasn't just the Jew's that were a target...the person I've gleaned much of my pre and during war information on the German state of mind from lost a cousin with Downs Syndrome to the purges.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that people are basically sheep, and even the dumbest sheep has some survival instinct. It's a small step from killing Jews and the mentally ill/congenitally defective to deciding that anyone who would say it was wrong to kill these people probably isn't the good breeding stock we're after either.
As for the experiments, the hypothermia experiments at least would have yeilded data that would be of use and refusing to use that data to save other lives would have been pointless.

 

[huajiro]

You have to understand the prevailing sentiment. Here were these people (who aren't 'us')heavily engaged in commerce,often at least middle class economically. You've always got people who think anyone who has a little bit of money has done it by nefarious means anyway. They're the ones who are pleased when a high flyer goes bankrupt, because they were obviously dodgy anyway. No-one honest has any money...the honest ones live in a caravan park and the government barely dishes out enough to pay for their cigarettes every month while the rich ******** feed on the blood of the masses. You get the idea, I'm sure.
But onto the people who had a little more sense. The Jewish shopkeepers gave their staff quotas. As long as you sold your quota, you kept your job. Say you worked in a shop that sold china. Your quota is 120 plates a month. It looks like yu're not going to make your quota, so you get a relative to come in and buy some plates off you. Your job is saved.
The only problem with this is that eventually everyone you know is stocked up to the gills with plates, and you don't make your quota. Kiss your job goodbye.
Obviously this didn't go down well with people, so a few broken windows and the Jews having their property confiscated wasn't going to garner much sympathy. A large part of the population figured they deserved it, and if they then had to get on a boat and leave penniless for somewhere else, well then that was the course of natural justice.
By the time the killing started in earnest what were people going to do? It wasn't just the Jew's that were a target...the person I've gleaned much of my pre and during war information on the German state of mind from lost a cousin with Downs Syndrome to the purges.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that people are basically sheep, and even the dumbest sheep has some survival instinct. It's a small step from killing Jews and the mentally ill/congenitally defective to deciding that anyone who would say it was wrong to kill these people probably isn't the good breeding stock we're after either.
As for the experiments, the hypothermia experiments at least would have yeilded data that would be of use and refusing to use that data to save other lives would have been pointless.

I dont know about anyone else, but I would have died trying to help them....I would not be able to live with myself otherwise....my whole being is against what the Nazis did.

As far as using the information from the experiments, it is wrong....by using that information, we justified what the Nazi's did......we should have taken their information and burned it along with them.

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

1) Why did it take so long for anyone to help the Jews?

I can't speak for the Europeans but from what I understand, America became primarily isolationist after WWI because it felt that it was basically fooled into a useless European war, so in the post WWI pre WWII period it tried to stay out of European issues for the most part.
As far as concentration camps go, it seems you mainly hear the popular lie of the "6 million Jews", there were a great number of other people interned in those camps, gypsies, Jehova witnesses, Slavs, Russians, homosexuals, political opponents, and just about anyone else considered racially inferior, morally deficient or a political threat that were non- Jewish, yet many times they are included in the "6 million" as Jews. I think it's a great dis-service to the many diverse groups of people that suffered in those camps to not acknowledge what they were but as I said the "6 million Jews" lie is a popular one.

How much of the information from the experiments is used on a daily basis by doctors, engineers, etc in today's society?

I'm guessing more than some would care to admit, I do know that a lot of modern biological and chemical warfare programs has a lot of base in nazi technology, as a matter of fact the U.S actually employed some nazi scientists in this aim after the war and I am sure a few other countries did as well. It seems a lot of the german medical experiments were based around testing military equipment. Some of the biologiocal tests I'm sure have had some impact on our modern medicine possibly in the DNA department as well as military technology because theories and tests were run on human beings, not mice or monkeys.

The Germans were pretty meticulous in their bookkeeping, unfortunately information that might possibly have been useful was probably destroyed when they realized the cause was lost to cover their activities if they were brought to trial. I've read that much of the experiments that were known were "junk" science with no use but that doesn't seem to make much sense, I'm sure there were useless ones or experiments that were designed to get "results" if the scientist were pressed by superiors but I am also sure that a lot of serious minded scientists were convinced that Germany would win the war and carried out experiments professionally with the intent of achieving actual results, you cannot have that much human material to test with and learn nothing.

 

[huajiro]

I think it's a great dis-service to the many diverse groups of people that suffered in those camps to not acknowledge what they were but as I said the "6 million Jews" lie is a popular one.

Very good point....I do regognize the others who suffered and died as well.

 

[Simon the Cat]

While I think it is important to study the holocaust as a historical event, it is also important to remember - especially when trying to understand why this happened that genocide is a pretty common occurance with humans for whatever the reason. Jews have been persecuted (think Spanish Inquisition) before. However, if one was looking to understand why they were persecuted, why there was genocide, I would look beyond the fact that those persecuted were Jews (and many others)and study other more recent genocides in history for commonalities. Think Rwanda (under Idi Amin), the enslavement and systemic destruction of West Africans/West African culture in the US, Pol Pot in Cambodia/Campuchea (The Killing Fields and Swimming to Cambodia movies are nice introductions to this) Stalins mass starvation of the Russians, the Communist Revolution in China, the war between the Bosnians and Serbians - the list goes on and on - and why did it happen? Who knows..... but the atrocities are still there and still happening.

Human's are the only species who keep slaves.

 

[jewscout]

I think it's a great dis-service to the many diverse groups of people that suffered in those camps to not acknowledge what they were but as I said the "6 million Jews" lie is a popular one.

the "6 million Jews" lie??? Your confusing the total number of Jews killed with the total number of people killed......
http://library.thinkquest.org/3300/Deathtoll.html

total dead: 8.3 million
Total Jews dead: 5.9 million

 

[Lintu]

People in Germany didn't help for many reasons.
Some were indoctrinated, and really did believe that the anti-socials, Gypsies, Jews, were a threat. The fear of the Bolsheviks, similar to the US Red Scare of the 50s, was always linked strongly to the Jews. People really were afraid that the Soviets (= Jews) were going to come to Germany and take over. Flawed racial science also had a lot of people convinced.

Also, people were seeing various neighbors and members of the community disappearing in the night. Simply talking to a Jew was to risk denunciations. I'm not saying that any of these reasons justify what the average German did in ignoring the persecution of Jews, but that they were only human. Many people would not risk their own lives (and their families' wellbeing) for another person...especially if they've been told over and over that the people who are being taken off for "rehabilitation" are racially inferior members of society.

The US did support the Jews in several small instances, such as denouncing the boycott and Kristallnacht. But, they never did enough to stop the killing, primarily due to isolationism.

 

[HelpMe]

geez that was unexdpected.sorry for everyone who took it the wrong way.

Yes - that you found it interesting and wanted to spread it suggests a good deal about you.

i also find your denial of yeshua to be completely biased and 100% rubbish, does this mean it can't interest me?

you're usually a semantical expert.

Someone I knew lived through the Holocaust.

i know some people as well, sorry you took it the wrong way.

I would strongly suggest you go get information elsewhere on the subject.

i'm sorry to everyone under the impression that because something interests me that it is something i believe in, but this impression is absolutely wrong.

the hobbit and LOTR books interested me as well everyone, just in case you're interested on passing more unneeded judgement.

HelpMe,
This is complete garbage.

thank you very much for a simply honest and perfect[imo] answer jewscout.

truthfully the most interesting part to me was the list of other genocides at the end of the page.

i do not agree with the site and although i would of imagined at least one person could of provided debunking evidence, i thank you all for your input.

 

[No*s]

OK Help Me. Glad to know you don't share the views .

 

[huajiro]

I never thought you did think that (does that make sense?):areyoucra

 

[Quoth The Raven]

I dont know about anyone else, but I would have died trying to help them....I would not be able to live with myself otherwise....my whole being is against what the Nazis did.

And would you be prepared to make that choice for your child as well? It's not just you're making choices for...are you really going to risk helping that Jew you don't know just so you can watch someone do horrible things to your child before they finally let you die?

As far as using the information from the experiments, it is wrong....by using that information, we justified what the Nazi's did......we should have taken their information and burned it along with them.

I understand your sentiment, but you also have to understand that from a scientific point of view, things like the hypothermia experiments were incredibly useful. As a government, your logical approach is ,'now we don't have to ask for volunteers who are prepared to risk dying to find this stuff out for ourselves.' Is it a morally reprehensible standpoint? Probably it is. Is it going to make everything better to not use these results? Well, the people who have died for them have died for nothing, more people will probably have to die to obtain the results again, and people will die of hypothermia in the meantime.

As for bold declarations from people who insist had they been there that they would have died rather than doing nothing, it's all coming from a long way from the actual event and they really have no idea what their actual reactions would have been. As much as we'd all like to think we're noble creatures, the fact that it even happened in the first place just proves that for the most part we're not.

 

[kreeden]

Huajiro , I believe that " helping " in such a case may not be as simple as it sounds . 20/20 hind sight and all of that . I believe that several things come into play that many over look .

First off , most people don't want to believe that we { humans } are capible of such things . Added to take was the world's opinion of the Jewish people at the time . { yea , somethings never change , only the targets } . On top of that , many still remembered the storys that were told during WWI . Storys of the " Huns " tossing babys into the air and catching them on baynets and the like . { a part of war is making the other side look like monsters , so many just didn't believe the storys they were hearing }.

Another book that you would likely enjoy { if you can find a copy } is " Treblinka ". It was written by survivers of the ONLY death camp that was overthrown by the prisoners . But what I found interesting about it is that they tried to explain your very question . They talk about the control that the Nazis used , both physicological and physical .

I just checked . Amazon carries it . Treblinka by Jean-Francois Steiner .
Amazing . I read it in highschool ... some thirty years ago , and it is still in print .

 

[huajiro]

And would you be prepared to make that choice for your child as well? It's not just you're making choices for...are you really going to risk helping that Jew you don't know just so you can watch someone do horrible things to your child before they finally let you die?

I understand your sentiment, but you also have to understand that from a scientific point of view, things like the hypothermia experiments were incredibly useful. As a government, your logical approach is ,'now we don't have to ask for volunteers who are prepared to risk dying to find this stuff out for ourselves.' Is it a morally reprehensible standpoint? Probably it is. Is it going to make everything better to not use these results? Well, the people who have died for them have died for nothing, more people will probably have to die to obtain the results again, and people will die of hypothermia in the meantime.

As for bold declarations from people who insist had they been there that they would have died rather than doing nothing, it's all coming from a long way from the actual event and they really have no idea what their actual reactions would have been. As much as we'd all like to think we're noble creatures, the fact that it even happened in the first place just proves that for the most part we're not.

If you knew me better, you would understand that my whole beeing is against what happened there....and yes, I would give my life to stop it in the blink of an eye. My son is everything to me, I would make sure that he was taken care of. I want him to have a father, but I don't want him to have a father who would stand by and let something like this happen. If Iraq were a war with the same principles as WWII I would not be here, I would be there.

 

[huajiro]

Huajiro , I believe that " helping " in such a case may not be as simple as it sounds . 20/20 hind sight and all of that . I believe that several things come into play that many over look .

First off , most people don't want to believe that we { humans } are capible of such things . Added to take was the world's opinion of the Jewish people at the time . { yea , somethings never change , only the targets } . On top of that , many still remembered the storys that were told during WWI . Storys of the " Huns " tossing babys into the air and catching them on baynets and the like . { a part of war is making the other side look like monsters , so many just didn't believe the storys they were hearing }.

Another book that you would likely enjoy { if you can find a copy } is " Treblinka ". It was written by survivers of the ONLY death camp that was overthrown by the prisoners . But what I found interesting about it is that they tried to explain your very question . They talk about the control that the Nazis used , both physicological and physical .

I just checked . Amazon carries it . Treblinka by Jean-Francois Steiner .
Amazing . I read it in highschool ... some thirty years ago , and it is still in print .

Thanks...I will look for it as well

 

[Quoth The Raven]

If you knew me better, you would understand that my whole beeing is against what happened there....and yes, I would give my life to stop it in the blink of an eye. My son is everything to me, I would make sure that he was taken care of. I want him to have a father, but I don't want him to have a father who would stand by and let something like this happen. If Iraq were a war with the same principles as WWII I would not be here, I would be there.

Truly, I understand where you're coming from. You'd make sure he was taken care of. How would you ever be 100% certain he was taken care of, given the political climate? Think hard about how ready you would be to jump in if you couldn't be 100% sure that he was going to be safe.
There are plenty of horror stories of children who were supposed to get out of the country to safety and the best they got was given over to the Nazi's by the people who had been paid to help them.
The whole thing of it is that plenty of good men stood by and did nothing...watched their neighbours taken, watched their mentally ill relatives taken, knew that it wasn't right. The same people may even have believed as you do that they would never have stood for something like that. Why did they do nothing in the end? Because you can make a choice for yourself alone and consequences be damned, but when that choice will kill your family, you'll keep your mouth shut.
I understand you believe you would have done something, all I'm saying is that if you were in a situation where you couldn't be 100% certain that your child would be safe from the consequences of your actions you may behave contrary to your nature.
You also have to bear in mind that you're coming from a climate where George W. is not going to send the boys around if you stand up in the park and denounce him for a murderous nutjob. I sincerely doubt any of us really comprehend what it's like to live in that sort of climate of fear.

 

[kreeden]

If Iraq were a war with the same principles as WWII I would not be here, I would be there.

But how would you know , untill after the war ?

Ok , some likely did know , or at the very lest have an idea , but we are using info that we know now as fact . It makes quite a difference , you know .

 

[michel]

Lately I have had this obsession with the Holocaust....I am reading everything I come across about it. I find myself asking 2 questions:

1) Why did it take so long for anyone to help the Jews?

2) How much of the information from the experiments is used on a daily basis by doctors, engineers, etc in today's society?

Hi huajiro; took me a long time to get around to this one, although I have stong feeling about the subject. as you see to have.
What do you think kindled your interest and then obsession in the subject? have you worked that one out?-thoughts on a particular aspect of humanity can often emerge into the coscious as a result of a subconscious need.
I won't answer your first question; it has been answered with clarity by others in the forum; ie Hitler's hypnotic effect on his people; the 'I'm only obeying orders' syndrome; the fear of reprisal by Hitler if any of his 'entourage' tried to question any of his statements or plans.
The second question is a very valid one, and demonstrates the fact that nothing is 'good', nor 'bad'- actions have both adaptive and maladaptive results on society; it is only for the human mind to choose which path to take.........It is an accepted fact that most inventions and leaps in science emmenated from wars, in medicine, engineering, as you suggested. Another -to me- very sad 'good' that came out of such an instance was Pavlov's insight into psychology as a result of his attrocious and unforgivable (to me) experiments carried out on animals