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Holy Moses.

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Do you see the italicized words in your KJV interpretation and translation? Italicization in the KJV means the words aren't in the Hebrew text. They're interpretive, speculative. The text doesn't say "whether." It says Ye shall eat no blood of animal or beast. There's no prohibition on human blood.
The later verse clarifies the earlier verse. The law given prohibits "any" blood.

Lev 7:27


כ זכָּל־נֶ֖פֶשׁ אֲשֶׁר־תֹּאכַ֣ל כָּל־דָּ֑ם וְנִכְרְתָ֛ה הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַהִ֖וא מֵֽעַמֶּֽיהָ

Literal translation / no words added:

All soul which eats all blood and will be cut off the soul that one from the people.
So no comsumption of blood. That's a word for word translation, nothing added.
Because his lecture is designed for a broader audience, he doesn't fully delve into the nature of these problems. But we could since we don't have to cater to a broader audience
Or. He he doesn't delve into falsehood, so he doesn't say what you'd like him to say.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Do you accept that metzitzah is as original and genuine as milah? That would be the first question prior to determining the originality of interpreting it (metzitzah) to be ingesting blood.



John
The oldest sources say that yes, drawing the blood from the wound was required. Drawing, not sucking, not swallowing. Not giving to the parents to drink, nor dribbling on the child's lips.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Many scholars, even orthodox Jewish scholars, now admit that Jesus was very much an orthodox Jew of the first century model.
Your track record on factual and complete representations of Jewish scholars suggests this is false.

"Many" is probably false. "orthodox" is probably false.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
When, at the Last Supper, he told his followers that when they drank the cup, it symbolized drinking his blood, he was situating himself as the circumcision.
No. Drinking from the cup symbolizing his blood was consent. He was completing a blood pact with his disciples. He could not take them for his own without their permission.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
And if they didn't, we, with the anthropological, archeological, historical, and religious information at our disposal, surely should.
The antropological, archeological, and historical information are all guesses. And this ignores that the history of the Jewish people described in the prophets is a people who made many many mistakes in their religious practice. Just because Jewish people at one time performed the circumcision in a specific way, doesn't make it holy or divine. It could have been a mistake.

The religious information is minimal, and that's what counts towards describing the original intention and theology.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Your track record on factual and complete representations of Jewish scholars suggests this is false.

Daniel Boyarin is both orthodox and a Talmudic scholar of some repute. In his book, The Jewish Gospels, he documents pretty heavily and clearly that Jesus was an orthodox Jew and that all the symbols and ideas he used were Jewish through and through even if Jews didn't all, or immediately, recognize them.


John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The antropological, archeological, and historical information are all guesses. And this ignores that the history of the Jewish people described in the prophets is a people who made many many mistakes in their religious practice. Just because Jewish people at one time performed the circumcision in a specific way, doesn't make it holy or divine. It could have been a mistake.

The religious information is minimal, and that's what counts towards describing the original intention and theology.

If you say there are mistakes in Jewish practice, and naturally there will be mistakes in transmission and interpretation of what's transmitted, then how does one determine what's a mistake, an error in transmission or interpretation, and what's the legitimate foundational idea or truth?

The brilliant and incomparable Ibn Ezra tied himself in knots trying to answer that question. He began by implying that the interpretation most true to the literal meaning of the text is the most trustworthy. But then he ran into cases where the Christian interpretation of the Hebrew text was not only truer to the literal text, but where the allegorical meaning the Christians applied to the literal Hebrew text appeared to fit seamlessly.

Psalms 2:6 is a poster-child for this since Ibn Ezra interpreted it literally when his main concern was exegeting another book in the Tanakh, but when he exegeted the Psalms, and was confronted with what the Christians were doing with 2:6, he changed his original interpretation of the text (that was based on the literal, exegesis of the Hebrew text), to an allegorical interpretation intended to deny the Christian's exegesis and interpretation of the text.

Is it legitimate to change an interpretation of the text based on the fact that the literal interpretation seems to lend itself to other traditions that we don't like? Surely a faithful interpreter shouldn't change his exegetical principles because they make the text say things it shouldn't say if his traditional understanding of the text is sound? Imagine if our exegetical principles were allowed to evolve so that what we believe the text says is what we determine it is saying, rather than determining what its saying by objective rules and principles that should cause the evolution of what we believe the text says.



John
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Daniel Boyarin is both orthodox and a Talmudic scholar of some repute. In his book, The Jewish Gospels, he documents pretty heavily and clearly that Jesus was an orthodox Jew and that all the symbols and ideas he used were Jewish through and through even if Jews didn't all, or immediately, recognize them.


John
Again, "all the symbols and ideas" is probably false. Your track record on accuracy is faulty. This is proven below.

1) You said many, you brought 1. Like I said "many" was probably false. Your accuracy is faulty.

2) I doubt that Daniel Boyarin is considered orthodox by the community. Isn't he quoted saying that he gets comments like "You should be praying in a mosque" ( Yes, I just checked it's on the wiki page about him ) when entering the synagogue. So, no probably not orthodox. Your accuracy is faulty.

So like I said, "many" and "orthodox" is probably false. Turns out I was right.

It's well known that Daniel Boyarin is a liberal scholar. And he's only 1 not many. If you want to prove otherwise, show me three or more *actual* orthodox Jewish scholars who think Jesus was "orthodox".
 
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Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
The fleshly serpent (kundalini) is cut, and bled, killing the angel of death who introduced bi-gendered sex, and its death sentence (Genesis 2:21) into the human race
Thank you for your detailed reply. I don't undrrstand how you bring in the serpent in gen 2.21. that is in my reading more about the beginning of marriage.
Also, I find the kabbalastic understanding of the sekinah parallel to kundalini. The traditions of blood told of by you don't make sense to me. Could they be later developments? In any event, the 7 chakras and 10 sekinah overlap and I find them to be highly beneficial in practice.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Again, "all the symbols and ideas" is probably false. Your track record on accuracy is faulty. This is proven below.

1) You said many, you brought 1. Like I said "many" was probably false. Your accuracy is faulty.

2) I doubt that Daniel Boyarin is considered orthodox by the community. Isn't he quoted saying that he gets comments like "You should be praying in a mosque" ( Yes, I just checked it's on the wiki page about him ) when entering the synagogue. So, no probably not orthodox. Your accuracy is faulty.

So like I said, "many" and "orthodox" is probably false. Turns out I was right.

It's well known that Daniel Boyarin is a liberal scholar. And he's only 1 not many. If you want to prove otherwise, show me three or more *actual* orthodox Jewish scholars who think Jesus was "orthodox".

It doesn't really matter who believes or doesn't believe Jesus was an orthodox Jew so much as it matters what you believe. And none of these dialogues are about me trying to establish myself as the criteria for truth or viability. It doesn't matter what you think about me or my track record unless you tend to accept things on the authority of the person from whom you get them more than on what you believe in your own heart. I have no track record or authority. I'm more like a cracked record and cheerleader of my own sorority. :D

In fairness to your statement, I'll try not to make comments about so and so believes or says this or that. I'll try to stick to what they actually say so readers can decide for themselves the viability of the idea (rather than the source of the idea). I'll redouble my efforts not to appeal to the authority of the person(s) I quote but quote them for the sake of the strength or weakness of the argument they make and perhaps how it relates to my own.



John


 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your detailed reply. I don't undrrstand how you bring in the serpent in gen 2.21. that is in my reading more about the beginning of marriage.
Also, I find the kabbalastic understanding of the sekinah parallel to kundalini. The traditions of blood told of by you don't make sense to me. Could they be later developments? In any event, the 7 chakras and 10 sekinah overlap and I find them to be highly beneficial in practice.

In some senses it seems unfortunate that the individual religious traditions are often doctrinally xenophobic. Each tradition sees its ideas as utterly unique to that tradition when in my opinion nothing is further from the truth. Every religion is dealing with a different limb of the same beast. The xenophobia and self-ingratiating traditions of interpretation make even the attempt to establish a universal understanding of spiritual truth difficult if not impossible.

Case in point, to explain how Genesis 2:21 applies to the dialogue requires a detour so far outside of anyone's orthodoxy but my own quasi-universal beliefs that it's unlikely there could ever be a return to the original topic since each step in establishing the nature of Genesis 2:21 in a universal sense can itself branch off as an explanation of this, or that, or the other thing, till both me and my interlocutor are exasperated and doubting the authenticity of the other's desire to understand.



John
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@dybmh can you tell me more about 1 shechina in Judaism and any relation with Moses. Did Moses at all (help me with words please) drink from shechina?
The shechina is a concept, an idea. It's a way to imagine divine interaction in the material world. In the story of Moses, God chooses Moses. Moses doesn't do anything other than follow instructions and miracles happen. So maybe following instructions is like drinking from the divine? In poetry, why not?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I see it as the seven or 10 centers in the spinal cord as in kabbala.
This is a pretty good article.

Shekhina | Judaism

This is also good.

Sefirot - Wikipedia

Scroll to the middle. Look for this:

Screenshot_20221208_164155.jpg


Very Important: It's a vessel. Not a being. It's one of ten emanations.
 
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