Homosexual Marriages (Again)

[pdoel]

That is not a proper sentence. It is not even a coherent thought. There's a lesson here.

You are so intensely invested in validating yourself that you are making a mockery of rational conversation. So, for example, your chatter about translations is worthless noise: I know of no translation of the OT that renders Leviticus favorable towards homosexuality. I know of no translation of the NT that renders Paul favorable towards homosexuality.

The answer is not one of putting words in Binyamin's mouth, but in coming to grips with what's true: either (a) you are flawed or (b) your Bible is flawed. I vote (b). You vote as you wish ...

And I find your condescending tone incredibly arrogant, and also against the principles of a decent debate.

My points are still valid.

People use the Bible to say why homosexuality is wrong. People actually lobby against homosexual marriage because of what the Bible teaches. Yet, these same people practice divorce, advocate divorce, and have even been remarried. Many of the people who speak out against homosexual marriage have made a mockery of conventional marriage themselves.

Sorry, but that's hypocracy plain and simple.

But, if we want to use the Bible as a resource, who's do we use? The Jewish Bible that only has the old testament? The Christian Bible?

I am a Christian. While I understand the laws spoken in the Old Testament, I also understand the great importance of the New Testament. It is just that. A new testament between God and man.

John 3:16 (I can't quote this enough). "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who shallever believith in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Jesus changed everything for man. With him, we may be forgiven. No matter how great our sin, we are forgiven.

Through time, man has been able to justify changing what we once believed to be sins, or laws which God put upon us. Divorce, the treatment of women, how we handle livestock, sacrifices, etc. Man has strayed from the Bible many times over the years as God's laws no longer seem to fit into our current lifestyle. Homosexual marriage is just the next "hot topic". But is really no difference than any of the others.

Is it a sin? Probably. Am I, as a gay man, the person God wants me to be? There's no doubt in my mind that I am. What is the lesson that God wants me to learn? What is the message he wants me to spread? That I don't know. My journey is not yet over. But my faith tells me that I am exactly the person that God wants me to be. That the love I have for my partner is real, and that God would want it no other way. My faith also tells me that while God once viewed Homosexuality as a sin, that God has forgiven us of our sins, and that he loves me just the same, whether I am gay, straight, black, white, missing a leg, blind, deaf, whatever.

If you still can't follow that, and want to nitpick on some spellings or grammer errors, then maybe create a new thread on such mistakes. But I think the message is rather obvious. I don't expect everyone to agree with the message, but my faith tells me I'm on the right track.

 

[Aqualung]

If somebody is being a hypocrit, does that automatically mean all their points are invalid? Not really, no. It just means they're being a hypocrit. You can't use the hypocracy of mankind as an argument for your cause.

 

[Deut 13:1]

And I find your condescending tone incredibly arrogant, and also against the principles of a decent debate.

My points are still valid.

People use the Bible to say why homosexuality is wrong. People actually lobby against homosexual marriage because of what the Bible teaches. Yet, these same people practice divorce, advocate divorce, and have even been remarried. Many of the people who speak out against homosexual marriage have made a mockery of conventional marriage themselves.

Sorry, but that's hypocracy plain and simple.

But, if we want to use the Bible as a resource, who's do we use? The Jewish Bible that only has the old testament? The Christian Bible?

I am a Christian. While I understand the laws spoken in the Old Testament, I also understand the great importance of the New Testament. It is just that. A new testament between God and man.

John 3:16 (I can't quote this enough). "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who shallever believith in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Jesus changed everything for man. With him, we may be forgiven. No matter how great our sin, we are forgiven.

Through time, man has been able to justify changing what we once believed to be sins, or laws which God put upon us. Divorce, the treatment of women, how we handle livestock, sacrifices, etc. Man has strayed from the Bible many times over the years as God's laws no longer seem to fit into our current lifestyle. Homosexual marriage is just the next "hot topic". But is really no difference than any of the others.

Is it a sin? Probably. Am I, as a gay man, the person God wants me to be? There's no doubt in my mind that I am. What is the lesson that God wants me to learn? What is the message he wants me to spread? That I don't know. My journey is not yet over. But my faith tells me that I am exactly the person that God wants me to be. That the love I have for my partner is real, and that God would want it no other way. My faith also tells me that while God once viewed Homosexuality as a sin, that God has forgiven us of our sins, and that he loves me just the same, whether I am gay, straight, black, white, missing a leg, blind, deaf, whatever.

If you still can't follow that, and want to nitpick on some spellings or grammer errors, then maybe create a new thread on such mistakes. But I think the message is rather obvious. I don't expect everyone to agree with the message, but my faith tells me I'm on the right track.

I'd like to thank you, you just saved me from wasting my time responding with the bolded section of your post.

I direct you to this verse in the O.T.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,

3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"

4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.

So Jesus changed the law? Okay, false prophet. End of debate. Thank you for making this reply so easy.

 

[Aqualung]

I'd like to thank you, you just saved me from wasting my time responding with the bolded section of your post.

I direct you to this verse in the O.T.


So Jesus changed the law? Okay, false prophet. End of debate. Thank you for making this reply so easy.

Nice one! :clap

 

[pdoel]

I'd like to thank you, you just saved me from wasting my time responding with the bolded section of your post.

I direct you to this verse in the O.T.


So Jesus changed the law? Okay, false prophet. End of debate. Thank you for making this reply so easy.

And I guess that's the big difference. You don't believe Jesus is the Son of God. I do. God sent Jesus. So, I don't see Jesus as a false prophet. I see him as telling us the new agreement between man and God. My Bible and my faith tells me that I am correct. Yours tells you that you are correct.

Who is right? We won't know until we stand before God to be judged.

 

[Quiddity]

So Jesus changed the law? Okay, false prophet. End of debate. Thank you for making this reply so easy.

Who of thunk God can change things...

~Victor

 

[pdoel]

If somebody is being a hypocrit, does that automatically mean all their points are invalid? Not really, no. It just means they're being a hypocrit. You can't use the hypocracy of mankind as an argument for your cause.

Not at all. However, keep in mind, the point of this thread is to discuss homosexual marriage in terms of it's effect on society. Not whether or not God is going to condemn mankind for allowing it.

In that sense, then yes, hypocracy does have a huge play in this matter. If someone stands up to fight against homosexual marriage, uses the Bible as their source to show it's evil, and lobbies the governments of this country to try and keep it from passing, yet has been divorced three times, how can they possibly site the Bible as their reference?

I don't believe in the whole, "Do as I say, not as I do" principle. If you are going to cite the Bible to tell others how they are sinners, but then not apply it to your own life, then yes, I will think of their points as being invalid.

If a 300 pound man writes a diet book, while much of what he says in that book is true, how many people are really going to follow it? If you can't apply your principles to your own life, and only use them to pass judgement on others, how valid is that?

 

[Deut 13:1]

People use the Bible to say why homosexuality is wrong.

And they are 100% correct, the Bible does say homosexual ACTS are forbidden. Are you trying to argue that they are being promoted?

People actually lobby against homosexual marriage because of what the Bible teaches.

Correct.

Yet, these same people practice divorce, advocate divorce, and have even been remarried.

I doubt that they ADVOCATE divorce, but divorce in the eyes of the bible is something that in fact, does and will happen. I think the problem is that the people who practice divorce and have been remarried are following the law. Read Dueteronomy 24:1-5

1. When a man takes a wife and is intimate with her, and it happens that she does not find favor in his eyes because he discovers in her an unseemly [moral] matter, and he writes for her a bill of divorce and places it into her hand, and sends her away from his house,
2. and she leaves his house and goes and marries another man,
3. if the latter husband hates her and writes her a bill of divorce, and places it into her hand and sends her away from his house, or if the latter husband who took her as a wife, dies

4. her first husband, who had sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, since she was defiled [to him], for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin to the land the Lord, your God, gives you for an inheritance.

5. When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out in the army, nor shall he be subjected to anything associated with it. He shall remain free for his home for one year and delight his wife, whom he has taken.

Now, they might not be following the exact procedures for it, but they are correct in the idea that divorce, while something that hopefully never happens, is something that does and will happen. I know this is your first time reading this part of the bible, but alas, reality must hit you sometime.

Many of the people who speak out against homosexual marriage have made a mockery of conventional marriage themselves.

How so?

Sorry, but that's hypocracy plain and simple.

So your argument is because they're a hypocrit, that none of the laws are right? I don't by that. Hypocrasy has nothing to do if they are right on this point. Biblically speaking, homosexual acts are wrong.

 

[Mister_T]

Me thinks that if people spent as much energy tending their own cows as they do trying to tend others, this world would be a much happier place. Let gays marry. Let them be happy, and spend the energy you spend on trying to pass your beliefs onto others on your own family. Everyone can then do the happy dance.

Agreed. Mattew 7: 1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother 'Let me take the speck out of your eye' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? you hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eyeand then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers"

Personally I think too much time and energy goes into peoples sex lives. People should take the amount of effort they use in telling people how to live there lives and take a trip to Down Town L.A. around 7 pm. There's about 7 or 8 blocks full of cardboard houses set up on the sidewalks. Those people need God in there lives, a whole heck of a lot more than gays or people who have pre-marital sex.

 

[Deut 13:1]

And I guess that's the big difference. You don't believe Jesus is the Son of God. I do. God sent Jesus. So, I don't see Jesus as a false prophet. I see him as telling us the new agreement between man and God. My Bible and my faith tells me that I am correct. Yours tells you that you are correct.

Who is right? We won't know until we stand before God to be judged.

Does G-d contradict himself? I'm sorry, but I just can't see G-d coming and telling us to KILL whoever comes to change a single letter of the law. Then he comes along when there is not one prophecy that says G-d is going to come in human form and change everything.

Furthermore, before you spout off verses with horrendous mistranslations, if you'd like to debate the fact that Mr. J is who he said he was, then I can kindly direct your attention to the thread in the Abrahamic beliefs, interpreting biblical propheicies by G-d is love. Should be the second one down. I'm still waiting for a reply to Isaiah 53, Isaiah 7:14, Psalm 22:16, Zachariah 12:10 and 13:6. But if you have some more verses you want an in depth response too, let me know, finals are over this week, so I have plenty of time to do it. And as I'm now out of the hospital and feeling decent, I have the time to respond.

I see ZERO proof that Mr. J is G-d. Period. So in order for me to accept the idea that it was G-d changing the law, which I again would need a good reason G-d would even bother giving it then, I would need proof that Mr. J is G-d.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Who of thunk God can change things...

~Victor

Why would G-d give us the law, then turn around and toss it out?

 

[pdoel]

I doubt that they ADVOCATE divorce, but divorce in the eyes of the bible is something that in fact, does and will happen. I think the problem is that the people who practice divorce and have been remarried are following the law. Read Dueteronomy 24:1-5
Now, they might not be following the exact procedures for it, but they are correct in the idea that divorce, while something that hopefully never happens, is something that does and will happen. I know this is your first time reading this part of the bible, but alas, reality must hit you sometime.

I know many people who advocate divorce. Many feel divorce was the best thing that ever happened to them. So you may doubt that people advocate it, but the fact is, many do.

As for scripture. You may want to reconsider being so arrogant as to assume anything. It is not the first time I have read the scripture. As far as people making a mockery of marriage. Have you read any divorce stastics over the last few decades? About 50% of marriages will fail. Want an example of a mockery of a marriage. Remember the Brittney Spears marriage (her first one?). How's that. Seems like a perfect example to me. How about "Who wants to marry a millionaire"? All of these seem to be mockeries of marriage to me.

Personally, I don't believe in divorce. I don't believe that 95% of the divorces in this world are done so under the guidelines of God. I think divorce is a convenience many people have taken advantage of.

At this point in time, I may not be allowed to marry my partner. However, we have promised to be together for ever. And there is no doubt in my mind that we will be. It may not be easy, and we may hit rocky roads at time, but I will do everything in my power to fight and stay together. And he will as well. For many, it's easier to not fight, and just say goodbye. I don't agree with that.

So your argument is because they're a hypocrit, that none of the laws are right? I don't by that. Hypocrasy has nothing to do if they are right on this point. Biblically speaking, homosexual acts are wrong.

My argument is that if people cannot practice what they preach, they should not be preaching.

Another example of hypocracy. Dr. Laura. She loved to preach and tell people how evil they were and how they needed to change their lives. She often spoke against divorce and homosexuality. Info comes out later that she was divorced, and naked pictures (from either a previous husband or boyfriend) surfaced. Where is she now? Her TV show was quickly dropped, and she lost a huge chunk of her audience. She lost credibility.

Hypocracy plays a major roll in credibility. If you are going to preach to the masses, then by golly, you better be living according to the teachings you are preaching.

 

[Quiddity]

Why would G-d give us the law, then turn around and toss it out?

I didn't mean "toss it out" I said change.

~Victor

 

[pdoel]

I see ZERO proof that Mr. J is G-d. Period. So in order for me to accept the idea that it was G-d changing the law, which I again would need a good reason G-d would even bother giving it then, I would need proof that Mr. J is G-d.

And that is fine. I have no problem with you not believing in Jesus. However, keep in mind, that while you see zero proof that Mr. J is God. There is absolutely NO proof that there even is a God. So by your own dispute of Jesus' testimony, we could use the same argument to say that everything you are trying to tell us now is false.

It all comes down to faith. There is no physical proof of God, Jesus (as the Son of God), or just about anything else taught to us in scriptures. It is our faith that tells us these are true.

Your faith tells you one thing, mine tells me another. Many Christians would feel you are going to Hell because you have not claimed Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour. You would feel many Christians are going to Hell for following a "False prophet".

I disagree with both. I think we all serve a purpose unto God. I don't know what those purposes are, only God knows. But I do believe it is not our job to judge. We can try to educate, reach out to others, and treat each other the best we can. For me, that does not mean forcing others to live a life that we have deemed "God's way". Only God knows what that way is.

 

[Deut 13:1]

I didn't mean "toss it out" I said change.

~Victor

In my opinion, you're playing semantics, the laws are tossed out, laws of niddah, separation no longer apply, = no longer exist = tossed out. Pork, Shabbas, ect...

 

[Deut 13:1]

You type fast

I know many people who advocate divorce. Many feel divorce was the best thing that ever happened to them. So you may doubt that people advocate it, but the fact is, many do.

Yes, well saying it's the best thing to happen to them, isn't the same as going up to a stranger and talking him into getting a divorce.

As for scripture. You may want to reconsider being so arrogant as to assume anything. It is not the first time I have read the scripture. As far as people making a mockery of marriage. Have you read any divorce stastics over the last few decades? About 50% of marriages will fail. Want an example of a mockery of a marriage. Remember the Brittney Spears marriage (her first one?). How's that. Seems like a perfect example to me. How about "Who wants to marry a millionaire"? All of these seem to be mockeries of marriage to me.

And...? Why would I care what non-Jews do with dirvorce...

Personally, I don't believe in divorce. I don't believe that 95% of the divorces in this world are done so under the guidelines of God. I think divorce is a convenience many people have taken advantage of.

I agree.

At this point in time, I may not be allowed to marry my partner. However, we have promised to be together for ever. And there is no doubt in my mind that we will be. It may not be easy, and we may hit rocky roads at time, but I will do everything in my power to fight and stay together. And he will as well. For many, it's easier to not fight, and just say goodbye. I don't agree with that.

And G-d willing, you never will be.

My argument is that if people cannot practice what they preach, they should not be preaching.

I agree, but what makes you think half the laws in the bible are meant for Christians. When it comes to it, Christians have 7 laws they must follow. In the Torah it CLEARLY states which laws are for bnai yisrael, children of israel, which laws are for the kohen, the preistly decendents of Aaron, and which laws are for everyone.

Another example of hypocracy. Dr. Laura. She loved to preach and tell people how evil they were and how they needed to change their lives. She often spoke against divorce and homosexuality.

And, according to the bible, she is 100% correct.

Info comes out later that she was divorced, and naked pictures (from either a previous husband or boyfriend) surfaced. Where is she now? Her TV show was quickly dropped, and she lost a huge chunk of her audience. She lost credibility.

So what? We're not claiming we're perfect, we're claiming that the laws still apply, ALL of them. Just because we can't follow them 100% doesn't mean they are invalid. The same argument you're using can be applied to murder, "you don't follow the rest of the laws, so why this one". ya-da-ya-da. You get the point yet? Biblicaly speaking, she is 100% correct. There are procedures for divorce, if you don't follow them, then you're wrong, but to say divorce is biblical wrong is like saying homosexuality is a-okay.

Hypocracy plays a major roll in credibility. If you are going to preach to the masses, then by golly, you better be living according to the teachings you are preaching.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2898&p=268186

Lastly, I direct your attention to the last person, like you, who posted that stupid Dr. Laura letter. You'll notice not one person, not a single one, challenged me. They all conceded their points, I even bumped it once with a couple other replies. The laws they quote are meant for Jews, not gentiles. If you'd like to discuss that, please go to thread there and I'd be more then happy to make you, like everyone else in that thread, quiet.

 

[Deut 13:1]

And that is fine. I have no problem with you not believing in Jesus. However, keep in mind, that while you see zero proof that Mr. J is God. There is absolutely NO proof that there even is a God. So by your own dispute of Jesus' testimony, we could use the same argument to say that everything you are trying to tell us now is false.

How so? I'm challenging you to prove the idea of a G-d incarnate on this earth. Using the bible, if you want to debate if a G-d or detiy or higher power even exists, make a new thread, just don't expect me to pop in.

Your faith tells you one thing, mine tells me another. Many Christians would feel you are going to Hell because you have not claimed Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour. You would feel many Christians are going to Hell for following a "False prophet".

I believe almost everyone goes to your preversed version of 'hell', so don't sit here and tell me what I believe when you know nothing about Judaism and nothing about their beliefs.

I disagree with both. I think we all serve a purpose unto God. I don't know what those purposes are, only God knows. But I do believe it is not our job to judge. We can try to educate, reach out to others, and treat each other the best we can. For me, that does not mean forcing others to live a life that we have deemed "God's way". Only God knows what that way is.

So it's not our job to judge?? This is another reason I have zero respect for your interpretations of the bible. Because the bible clearly DOES TELL YOU TO JUDGE PEOPLE!!!

In fact, it tells you how to do it, on the number of witnesses you need, ect...

Deuteronomy 16
18. You shall set up judges and law enforcement officials for yourself in all your cities that the Lord, your God, is giving you, for your tribes, and they shall judge the people [with] righteous judgment. 19. You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show favoritism, and you shall not take a bribe, for bribery blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts just words. 20. Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may live and possess the land the Lord, your God, is giving you.

Deuteronomy 17
5. Then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has committed this evil thing, to your cities, the man or the woman, and you shall pelt them with stones, and they shall die.
6. By the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall the one liable to death be put to death; he shall not be put to death by the mouth of one witness.

Deuteronomy 17
8. If a matter eludes you in judgment, between blood and blood, between judgment and judgment, or between lesion and lesion, words of dispute in your cities, then you shall rise and go up to the place the Lord, your God, chooses.
9. And you shall come to the Levitic kohanim and to the judge who will be in those days, and you shall inquire, and they will tell you the words of judgment.

Deuteronomy 19
15. One witness shall not rise up against any person for any iniquity or for any sin, regarding any sin that he will sin. By the mouth of two witnesses, or by the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be confirmed.

Deuteronomy 17
16. If a false witness rises up against a man, to bear perverted testimony against him,
17. Then the two men between whom the controversy exists shall stand before the Lord, before the kohanim and the judges who will be in those days.
18. And the judges shall inquire thoroughly, and behold, the witness is a false witness; he has testified falsely against his brother;
19. then you shall do to him as he plotted to do to his brother, and you shall [thus] abolish evil from among you.
20. And those who remain shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer continue to commit any such evil thing among you.
21. You shall not have pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

I'm beginning to think that you've never read Dueteronomy.

 

[Quiddity]

In my opinion, you're playing semantics, the laws are tossed out, laws of niddah, separation no longer apply, = no longer exist = tossed out. Pork, Shabbas, ect...

No I'm not. Here is some examples:

Mana in the desert replaced by bread of life [Eucharist]
Circumcision replaced by baptism
Abraham’s attempt to sacrifice replaced by Christ’s sacrifice

These are the changes I speak of.

~Victor

 

[mr.guy]

And...? Why would I care what non-Jews do with dirvorce...

At this point in time, I may not be allowed to marry my partner

And G-d willing, you never will be.

Binyamin,

If you don't care whether non-jews divorce, why the huff if (gay) non-jews marry?

 

[Deut 13:1]

Binyamin,

If you don't care whether non-jews divorce, why the huff if (gay) non-jews marry?

The noahide laws include sexual immorality, aka homosexuality which from Judaism's point of view, applies to everyone. The divorce laws are meant for Jews.