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Homosexuality and Evolution: God's Will and Human Belief

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
So Luke is not an eyewitness, as I said. Thanks. I don't know how you're getting that he's an eyewitness out of that.

If "those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers" had written their claims down, those would constitute eyewitness accounts. Writing down a story you heard from some guys is not the same thing as an eyewitness account.

Likely you need to review the word "Us"

1 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.

The "us" is the body of Christ, Christians, to whom Luke wrote, the "perfect understanding from the VERY first," is a primacy on being there. If things happened for three years with Jesus and Luke heard tales, he'd not be "perfectly understanding from the first".
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Likely you need to review the word "Us"

1 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.

The "us" is the body of Christ, Christians, to whom Luke wrote, the "perfect understanding from the VERY first," is a primacy on being there. If things happened for three years with Jesus and Luke heard tales, he'd not be "perfectly understanding from the first".
I know what "us" means. He is saying here that people he claims were eyewitnesses at some point, handed down the stories and DELIVERED THEM TO US. Hence, Luke himself was not an eyewitness. If Luke were an eyewitness, why would someone else have to deliver the stories to him?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I know what "us" means. He is saying here that people he claims were eyewitnesses at some point, handed down the stories and DELIVERED THEM TO US. Hence, Luke himself was not an eyewitness. If Luke were an eyewitness, why would someone else have to deliver the stories to him?

Probably because Luke was not omnipresent? Probably because you and Luke were honest and after seeing the Divine Mojo in action, he did what you would do and conferred with others? Probably because he wanted to check his own memory years later?

There's nothing inimical there. "Having been in Jesus's posse since Day One, and wanting to really tell what I think I saw, I hooked into believers and skeptics alike, eyewitnesses like me, to deepen the confirmation of this narrative." If you are open to reading it that way, you have an extraordinary document when compared with say, ancient panegyrics that extol Caesar (so that the authors literally keep their heads).

Also, Luke knew the OT, which says that "A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." Jesus used this line of patter most powerfully in the Bible.

I appreciate, and YOU appreciate, anyone who says, "I think I saw X, and then I asked three people if they saw X, to confirm, before approaching you to confront you re: X".

X is a cross.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Probably because Luke was not omnipresent? Probably because you and Luke were honest and after seeing the Divine Mojo in action, he did what you would do and conferred with others? Probably because he wanted to check his own memory years later?

There's nothing inimical there. "Having been in Jesus's posse since Day One, and wanting to really tell what I think I saw, I hooked into believers and skeptics alike, eyewitnesses like me, to deepen the confirmation of this narrative." If you are open to reading it that way, you have an extraordinary document when compared with say, ancient panegyrics that extol Caesar (so that the authors literally keep their heads).

Also, Luke knew the OT, which says that "A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." Jesus used this line of patter most powerfully in the Bible.

I appreciate, and YOU appreciate, anyone who says, "I think I saw X, and then I asked three people if they saw X, to confirm, before approaching you to confront you re: X".

X is a cross.
There's nothing there to indicate that Luke was an eyewitness. In fact, he is stating straight up that he wasn't an eyewitness. I don't know what you're talking about or why you think he was.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
There's nothing there to indicate that Luke was an eyewitness. In fact, he is stating straight up that he wasn't an eyewitness. I don't know what you're talking about or why you think he was.

Eyewitness?
Why would one argue for god with something so clearly not so?

You know, a lot of Christians also argue with the "why would they die for a lie".

I wonder why if it is all so true, there was ever a need for tall
tales, such as come from "Paul."

And for that matter, how if god is god he could do such a botched up job of showing himself in a convincing way.

"Oh, he is gone, he must be god" is not it .

Now, if he'd gone back to Pilate and asked if he'd care to try
again, now that would have been some good theatre.
 

Punta Piñal

Heretic
The Genesis account is complex. It is clearly not literal, at least in a this-worldly sense, for that would create too many contradictions, not just in terms of our scientific knowledge, but also according to the internal logic of the biblical texts themselves. Notably, Origen took Genesis and Eden to refer to the pre-material Forms in another dimension; the “fall” was merely an ambiguous event that brought these forms (and history) into material existence. After all, one can wish for a world without death, but that would lead to (even greater) overpopulation. Similarly, remaining innocent would imply a stasis, a lack of experience, hence a colorless non-life. From this perspective the so-called “fall” would not have been universally bad, as has all too often been portrayed in Christianity. The Gnostic perspective is useful in this regard. Many traditions, along with empirical science, can enlighten and compensate one another, and lead to a fuller or truer picture than any single theory, hypothesis, notion, idea, doctrine, or dogma.

The Abrahamic hostility to, or ambivalence about, sexuality is internally contradictory if one holds that the universe is created “good” (sound), since we know that sexuality in the nonhuman world is complex, and that other species are hermaphroditic, and engage in same-sex (and other biblically proscribed) activities. Likewise, there is an inherent tension between this- and otherworldliness in the Abrahamic traditions. Jesus of Nazareth: human prophet, healer, announcer of the imminent kingdom on earth, inveigher against established wealth and elites, crucified political criminal. Jesus Christ: heavenly, eternal revealer, bearer of an esoteric message and hidden truth, an incarnate, transcendent being who is “not of this world,” the divine Son and firstborn, universal Logos. There is simply no “orthodox” way to reconcile these two divergent trends in the Gospels and Epistles.

The very notion of redemption implies that the existing world is sound, however flawed, and that in the age to come its essential character, its vibrancy, will not be abolished but conserved and transformed. Thus Paul’s disgust at homosexuality, his wariness of sex in general, and his apolitical resignation to authority contradict other key thrusts within the biblical tradition: the goodness and importance of this-worldly life. It is surprising that so many currents exist in the Bible (and Koran), but they do. Both lived experience and the Abrahamic mythos put the lie to modern fundamentalism and even to many, if not all, of the finer points of ancient orthodoxy. It is like the conflict between morality (aesthetics) and class (realism), two seemingly dependent considerations. Each of them is necessary to understand the dialectics of history. Yet everything, it is said, flows from a source (or Source).

Taking all these factors into account, revisions to faith may be necessary to separate the often-false inessentials—say, Leviticus’ negative views on homosexuality—from the more nuanced and truthful core, and to ensure that nothing contradicts accumulated empirical knowledge (science). A further case: since, per orthodoxy, “God” established human and nonhuman biology, there can be no objective opposition to supposed sexual “deviancy” or to intercourse itself. A life lived in truth and integrity is likened to a costly but deep love, hence sexual metaphors for Abrahamic faith. Active principle/husband “God” also used reserve DNA to form a body He took as His wife; hence immaterial “spirit” became incarnate “God-Man.” This fleshly embodiment of the preexistent “Image” spoke in nonliteral parables, just as much of the Bible is nonliteral.

In the realm to come, people receive super-bodies patterned after the Super-Body of the Logos, and enjoy the closest unity and intimacy with Him, the Source and Power of all things, whose very being shatters worlds. Though He is masculine, embodying the active principle, He desires that this be reflected in all mortals, regardless of sexuality. Consistent with the egalitarianism of early human history, women, too, receive super-bodies in His masculine image, while retaining individuality and sexuality. There is no reason why the cosmic “Christ,” united with His people, would not be willing to partake in experiences and sensations strongly akin to sexual intercourse, but in a transformed, otherworldly version. And there is no reason why same-sex “intercourse” would be prohibited. (The Quran and hadith make sexual pleasure paramount in the "afterlife.") In this proposed afterlife, "Christ" would express His free-flowing power through "intercourse" with his followers, who, in turn, would engage in the same among themselves.

At least that’s the “devil’s advocate.”
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
You know, a lot of Christians also argue with the "why would they die for a lie".

March 26, 1997, police discovered the bodies of 39 members of the group, who had participated in a mass suicide in order to reach what they believed was an extraterrestrial spacecraft following Comet Hale–Bopp. [Wikipedia]

Why would they die for a lie? Why would they kill not only themselves but their kids, their whole family for a lie? Impossible.

Ergo, spacecrafts following comets and picking up souls flying by are more plausible than we thought..

Ciao

- viole
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
There's nothing there to indicate that Luke was an eyewitness. In fact, he is stating straight up that he wasn't an eyewitness. I don't know what you're talking about or why you think he was.

Reading comprehension. Wondering how someone says, "I had perfect knowledge from the beginning prior to speaking to [other] eyewitnesses!"

Then again, one of us has a known agenda, I was a skeptic Jew who did NOT want to trust the NT and tried like Hell to avoid trusting it, and you are where I was formerly...

As if it would be hard for God to use non-eyewitnesses to write an accurate book! I've personally written accurate books.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Respectfully, V, what is sort of untrue about it, do you think?

I don't know BB. Sometime I wonder why it produces beings that believe in crazy things without evidence, but then I realize the evolutionary advantage of doing that.

Ciao

- viole
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I don't know BB. Sometime I wonder why it produces beings that believe in crazy things without evidence, but then I realize the evolutionary advantage of doing that.

Ciao

- viole

You and I must evolve, for Jesus says, "Unless we become a new creation in Him..."
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
We've been waiting for one of you guys to come up with some sort of fact
contrary to ToE.

At least one.

Pretty please?

There are billions of fossils extent, my local museum has 4 million of them. Not one half-formed anything in the fossil record. Not one.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
There are billions of fossils extent, my local museum has 4 million of them. Not one half-formed anything in the fossil record. Not one.

Ah, good, you mentioned "half formed" or as is also said, "partially formed".

I have several times asked people to explain what they mean by this. I have never gotten any sort of explanation. Obviously you / t hey have something in mind, so I will ask you.

Could you try to explain it? What would the half formed organism look like that you could recognize it
if it were there?

Honestly puzzled, so it would be a big help to both of us here, if you would give this a good try.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
None of them should be half-formed if evolution is true. It seems that you don't understand what the theory of evolution is.

Now,he is going to tell me what he means.

Though, if you have heard from someone what the
hypothetical half-formed critter might berecognized, please repeat it.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Reading comprehension. Wondering how someone says, "I had perfect knowledge from the beginning prior to speaking to [other] eyewitnesses!"
Yes, reading comprehension. Talking to other people claiming to be eyewitnesses does not make Luke's story an eyewitness account. In the same way that claiming that 500 people were there with you doesn't constitute 500 eyewitness accounts. We've been over this.

His own words belie your claims.

Then again, one of us has a known agenda, I was a skeptic Jew who did NOT want to trust the NT and tried like Hell to avoid trusting it, and you are where I was formerly...

My agenda is to believe as many true things as possible, and to not believe as many false things as possible. I have you telling me that "Luke's" words say something that they don't actually say. So I see no reason to believe that what you are telling me is a true thing. Especially when the written words don't jibe with what you're telling me.

Your agenda appears to be making sure everything in the Bible makes sense. I have no skin in the game either way on that one. I'm willing to believe whatever is most likely and most convincing about anything.

As if it would be hard for God to use non-eyewitnesses to write an accurate book! I've personally written accurate books.
I see no reason to believe that God wrote anything. I see all the reasons in the world to believe that human beings wrote the books.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
There are billions of fossils extent, my local museum has 4 million of them. Not one half-formed anything in the fossil record. Not one.
That's a point for evolution then, because evolution does not predict that we should find "half-formed anything in the fossil record."
Thanks for sharing. :)
 
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