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Homosexuality and Evolution

What do you think?

  • Homosexuality is genetically inherited

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Evolution is real

    Votes: 5 27.8%
  • Both

    Votes: 13 72.2%
  • Neither

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    18

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As noted above, as far as I am aware the methodologies of all genetic or otherwise biological (i.e., epigenetic) studies are premised on the assumption that human sexuality consists of two monosexual orientations--everyone is either gay or straight. I suspect that few of the researchers who employ such a methodology actually believe that this premise is true. Worse, this methodology uses, and I think ultimately promotes, the disease-model of same-sex sexuality--strict heterosexuality is assumed to be the norm, and any sort of same-sex attraction is the deviation for which a genetic difference is sought. This assumption of genetic heteronomativity is somehow maintained despite the unequivocal contrary evidence provided by other cultures as well as by our closest living relatives, among whom same-sex sexual activity is quite common. It is surely a satisfying notion to the “nuh-uh, no, never, not me, never looked at another [guy/woman] like that!” crowd.

In any case, using the premise of binary sexual orientation, it’s easy to understand how someone could find a genetic association (especially if a Bonferroni correction is not done) that would disappear if sexual orientation were assessed according to a range of possible categories, such as a Kinsey scale. If one classified a classroom of students as wearing either “dark” or “light” socks, one might find an association between sock “color” and grades, an association that would undoubtedly disappear if sock color were assessed according to range of colors.

But the assumption that sexual orientation is binary is worse than merely offensive in denying the existence of bisexuality and bisexuals--it’s illogical. After all, how does one explain these other cultures such as Melanesian societies where 95% of men (at least) engaged in sexual relationships with both sexes, or the commonplace same-sex relationships among the (usually married) free men of ancient Assyria, Greece and Rome? As my friend Kenji Yoshino discusses in “The Epistemic Contract of Bisexual Erasure,” there are powerful social, political and psychological motives to erase bisexuality: “Bisexuality is . . . threatening to all monosexuals because it makes it impossible to prove a monosexual identity.” http://kenjiyoshino.com/articles/epistemiccontract.pdf It isn’t difficult to understand why a bisexual might choose to limit his/her sexual activity to one gender or the other. On the other hand, except as a response to social pressure, it’s much more difficult, and ultimately impossible, to understand why someone who has zero sexual attraction toward people of one gender would go to the trouble of engaging in sexual activity with people of that gender. As long as bisexuals exist, anyone might be a bisexual, but some people simply do not express their sexuality in such a way. After all, there is nothing more common than declining to pursue sexual activity with someone--we all choose to not pursue sexual activity with someone every day.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Where did you get that idea? Cite the evidence. It must mean that the Swedish twin study noted above is wrong. Where did it go wrong?

You are conflating procreation with the sexual orientation of heterosexuality here. I have a son. Apparently you would count him, or would count that fact, as evidence that “heterosexuality is genetic and part of nature”. But I’m married to a man, and was in a relationship with another man when my son was conceived. Obviously the production of offspring does not prove the existence of the sexual orientation of heterosexuality, much less that heterosexuality is “genetic”.

Scientifically speaking, to call a trait genetic is the same as saying trait continued via evolution- unless I am mistaken?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
You seem to presume that homosexuality is able to be narrowed down to a single gene, rather than being the result of one's entire makeup. Who knows? It may even be that homosexuality is a vestigial trait going so far back we're talking microscopic lifeforms, before there was gender in more complex life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior has a long list of animals exhibiting homosexual behavior including many insects.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
BTW,and off the topic ,have you realized that threads about islam and homosexuality in RF get the most replies and they are always hot ?

So,does it mean that modern mankind's biggest problems are these two?

If so,how poorly and wrongly evolved minds we have!

Where are the hot topics about malnutrition,housing,education problems of BILLIONS?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I tend to think that humans are basically just sexual opportunists and that all people at least have the potential to be pansexual, but that culture interferes with our perceptions and expectations of our own sexuality too much, so most people restrict themselves.
I'm slightly unsure about the "too much" part and I suppose that there are always exceptions, but otherwise I agree.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
After all, there is nothing more common than declining to pursue sexual activity with someone--we all choose to not pursue sexual activity with someone every day.

Just as an aside, this is a goldmine for jokes of a certain kind. Sorry for interrupting. Please go on.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Scientifically speaking, to call a trait genetic is the same as saying trait continued via evolution- unless I am mistaken?
It seems to me that it is close to true, but not quite. It is probably the case that some genetic traits happen out of random mutation or genetic damage without necessarily being passed on to even the generation immediately following it. Particularly if they cause sterility or early death.

If I am not mistaken, an example would be progeria.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
I don't believe male bisexuality exists, though.[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much for this information.Yes,that's true, the bisexuals are all coming from Uranus. That's why they are not like us.

Uranusian: bisexual ( look it up on your latin dictionary)
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
If we didn't have such stigmas, I suspect the majority of people would have at least one sexual experience outside of their preference.

Not just sexual experiences...because of complusory heterosexuality many bisexuals are stifled emotionally and romantically from the same sex. So while a shag is acceptable
"I can't possibly fall in love with the same sex or have a family with someone of the same sex, I can only view them as a sex object." I believe is a common view amoungst bisexuals on how they relate to their attraction. Which is also why gays and lesbians are wary of dating us.
 

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
I don't think there's any single reason why someone might end up homosexual. There could be some people who are homosexual due to some genetic factor. There could be others who are homosexual due to environment, upbrining, or "choice", or something else. There could be people that are homosexual due to a combination of these factors.

Genetics is very complicated too. You can have a gene for some given trait, but not actually express that trait. So if there is in fact a "gay gene" it's possible to have that gene but also not be gay.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Scientifically speaking, to call a trait genetic is the same as saying trait continued via evolution- unless I am mistaken?
Certainly no study has shown that “everything about a person’s attractions” is heritable.

And, of course, no study has ever shown that any sexual orientation is heritable. The Swedish twin study showed that shared genetics cannot even account for the variance in the phenomenon of same-sex partnering. There is simply no reason to assume genetic determinism of sexual orientation.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Just as an aside, this is a goldmine for jokes of a certain kind. Sorry for interrupting. Please go on.
You are welcomed to quarry all the jokes in that goldmine. The fact is that none of my sentences after the quote from Kenji’s article seem to make much sense. They do nothing to clarify Kenji’s point, which I think is an important point--as long as there are bisexuals in the world (which there obviously are), it is the existence of innate monosexuality that we must question.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
You are welcomed to quarry all the jokes in that goldmine. The fact is that none of my sentences after the quote from Kenji’s article seem to make much sense. They do nothing to clarify Kenji’s point, which I think is an important point--as long as there are bisexuals in the world (which there obviously are), it is the existence of innate monosexuality that we must question.
Hmm. I was always taught that sexuality was a sliding scale and possible to change naturally throughout one's life. Due to the fluid nature of human sexuality. If Biologists are not using this model in their studies, why? It seems to me then that perhaps they should work in tandem with sexologists.
 

David M

Well-Known Member
Hi all!
I'm really sorry if this is in the wrong place, because i'm new to this website.
Let me just get to the point then...

I think that if homosexuality is a genetically inherited trait, like most people believe, then it might be a major point against evolution. Of course, it might not be at all (which is why I wan't to debate about it).

There is a genetic component to homosexuality, whether it is entireley genetic or partly so with epigenetic and environmental components is a separate discussion.

You would need to first establish a reason why it would be an arguent against evolution considering that such behaviour is widespread in nature.

I also think that if evolution is real (please don't tell me to stop being so ignorant, because I know that I am) then it might disprove the fact that homosexuality is genetically inherited and instead a choice someone makes (sue me).

There is nothing that indicates that homosexuallity has a negative effect when it comes to evolution and some evidence that it has links to increased female fertility in the family. As a social species that could mean that it is infact advantageous.


My point is, if you agree with evolution and believe that homosexuality is genetically inherited, explain to me how they could work in tandem

You need to explain why you think they can't work in tandem (considering that human sexuality is a spectrum not a set of isiolated states).
 
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David M

Well-Known Member
The amount of gay people has definitely stayed the same, but given what I said earlier isn't it possible that homosexuality will decline?

After multiple generations without homosexuality showing up in a family tree, won't the chance of a gay child being born to heterosexual parents decline? Of course it would take a lot of time, but that's just evolution right?

Only if they restricted themselves to marrying within the family.

Its pretty clear that the genetic component of homosexuality is based on more than one gene and its entirely possible that those genes can provide generally beneficial effects in isolation and combinations can do so as well.
 

David M

Well-Known Member
I'm incredibly not knowledgable about genetics, so forgive me if what I'm about to say is completely false

Traits that do not help the survival of the species will dissipate given enough time. The pancreas, wisdom teeth, and third eyelid do not help the survival of the species, so why are they still present?

No, they have a higher tendency to dissipate over time if they are detrimental - neutral effects can hang around because they aren't selected against, but the effect is only strongly relevant for issues occurring before the end of the reproductive span. They can also piggyback with genes that do provide beneficial effects as long as the good outweighs the bad.
 
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