What is true, and how do you know? Prove to me why your truth is more valid than mine. And you cannot quote the Bible. That is circular reasoning.
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Homosexuality and Homosexual Marriages: Why do Christians Care?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
What is true, and how do you know? Prove to me why your truth is more valid than mine. And you cannot quote the Bible. That is circular reasoning.
Then I'm surprised you seemingly didn't realize you were speaking on an open forum.
I am completely aware of what I was doing. Have a nice day.
Then you're aware you were speaking to more than one person.
If you say so.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
If they feel that way, they shouldn't serve the public, because they aren't serving the public if they feel that is a right. And the Supreme Court has already ruled it is illegal over a number of reasons, even if the reason for the discrimination is religious.
No, it's not. It's not up to us to say who may decide whom may or may not use a given facility, either.
No one is forcing you to offer a product or service. If you choose to, you serve the public, and the public includes everyone.
No one is being denied their freedom of religion. They can still practice and believe whatever. However, you don't have a right to serve the public, which means there is no right to deny services based on a list of various things. It's actually been ruled illegal, regardless of the purpose, even religious.
In many, ways, it is. It is blowing yourself up to get into Paradise, it is not seeking medical help for your sick child, it is abusing people, it is discrimination. "Freedom of religion" was to own slaves in America, and preserve that as a "right." There are indeed limits that should be imposed on "freedom of religion." It's not "religious freedom" to define marriage or science. Nor should it be considered a "religious freedom" to discriminate and bully.
I live in the same country. But, cultures that don't segregate these, they don't have problems due to it. They just go in, do their business, and go on about their day. No biggie, no issue, no problem.
Shad
Veteran Member
No as I am aware that the USA does not have federal law enforce on the police level.
No the contested point is do religious belief within a business open to the public trump discrimination laws and can be used as a bases for denial of services. Just as it was in the 60ds and 70s
Sure. However this gray area has already started court battles with the religious side not coming out on top as per Mississippi's law
- nobody is forcing anyone to provide a product or service. The government only says that if you sell products and services to the public, it has to be done in a non-discriminatory way.
Freedom of religion is upheld because there's nothing forcing, say, a wedding cake baker to keep producing wedding cakes. That baker is entirely free to choose some other profession where his religious beliefs won't conflict with the law.
For instance, he could change his business so that he only makes birthday cakes, not wedding cakes. Then, he can refuse wedding cakes to everyone, including same-sex couples.
TheMusicTheory
Lord of Diminished 5ths
Your entire debate strategy boils down to "no YOU!".
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I do have to say, the biggest problem with such a position is that it can equally be said that, in cases such as housing or employment, someone who is homosexual or transgender can find somewhere else to live and work. It's also very similar to the Libertarian position of telling someone who wants to make more money to "choose" to work else where.
Really, we need to be firm in stating that such laws are dictating that religion does not dominate the public sphere or state policy, nor shall it. It may restrict religion in the public sphere, but it also helps to preserve religious freedom in the private sphere. We have plenty of examples where this "freedom of religion" has driven state policy and allowed for many horrible things, such as bullying, discrimination, and even slavery.
No matter what, some people will not be able to let their religion have free-reign over everything they do, creating a sense of repression and an erosion of their rights. Considering their former grand privileged position in society (which has only been demoted to a greatly privileged position), from their perspective their freedom of religion is taking a back seat. And I won't shed a tear for them. Such "freedoms" are a great impediment in creating an equal, free, and open society. We must stand firm in that "freedom of religion" does not mean they get to dictate and run society. They can believe whatever they want, as it is their right, but they have no right to dictate public policy, discriminate, segregate, or force their own morality upon others.
Really, we need to realize a blanket "freedom of religion" is not a good thing, and rather accept their must be restrictions placed upon it, much like how we place restrictions upon "freedom of speech," and for good reasons. (and, though it's for another discussion, it is further indication that we collectively must readdress, reexamine, and redefine how we approach and think of "freedom.")
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Actually it does happen, especially in regards to LBGT youth, who may be tormented and tortured over Conservative beliefs that condemn them to Hell, assures them God hates them and views tem as an abomination worthy of nothing more than death, and that they are bogged down with a great and shameful sin. It more depends on the denomination and how liberal or conservative the church is, but nevertheless it is something that must not be ignored.
It isn't a matter of restricting religion in the public square; it's a matter of differentiating between two things:
- the products a business sells.
- who the business sells those products to.
The law in most western countries forbids discrimination in who a business sells to. If you sell, for instance, wedding cakes or pizza (two examples of businesses that have had issues with same-sex marriage), then you have to sell your product to whoever comes through the door, regardless of their race, sex, gender, orientation, social class, etc.
- OTOH, this doesn't mean that the customer can dictate at all what the business sells... so if a wedding cake place's owners refuse to stock "two grooms" or "two brides" cake toppers, a same-sex couple has no right to demand them. They do, however, have the right to buy the cake like anyone else, throw the "bride & groom" topper away, and put on a same-sex topper that they bought some place else.
Heck - if a baker insisted that every cake they made would be in the shape of a cross and the box would be covered in Jesus fish and Bible verses, he would be entirely in his rights to do so, and entirely justified in refusing requests for non-religious cakes... as long as he sold those religious cakes to anyone who had the money to buy one.
The thing that religious homophobes are generally unwilling to see is that gay kids are taught this and absorb it before they know that they are gay. The damage is huge. And when it manifests as self destructive behavior and self esteem issues that never go away they blame the gay people and homosexuality and anyone but the teachings.
Tom
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
And, often times, we find religion at the center of such things causing the need for such laws in the first place. Slavery - Biblical right; Segregation - Biblical right; banning interracial/same sex marriages - Biblical arguments for; Ineqaulity for women - Biblical reasons. We've said, time and time again, we don't care if they think people are condemned, hellbound sinners, cursed children of Hamm, or whatever, their religious views will not run the show, and they will be restricted in certain regards to their religious beliefs. Much like today. Those people can give many Bible verses for justifying why they won't serve homosexuals. But we don't care. Our goal is a free and equal society, not one bogged down with religious fanaticism. Like it or not, we're even going to have to start being very insistent they have no religious right to teach Creationism/ID and not learn about evolution in public schools, despite their claims to the contrary.
That is so very true. My teens were very troubling as I was more-or-less psychologically tortured by such poisonous teachings. In my dreams I would find myself burning in Hell, with these dreams so vivid I could feel the flames searing my flesh. When I finally left, I was in such a state of despair that I eventually found myself running with a not-so-good crowd doing things I'm not proud of, I drank heavily and popped just about any pills put in front of me, and often hoped I could just die all because the Church tore me down to the point I just didn't care about much of anything.
No child should ever have to go through such things, but tragically it will continue for the foreseeable future, as the comfort of cultural myths is exceedingly difficult to break without an Iron Fist.
I wonder if such a business went this route, and surely made such cakes for homosexuals, but then clients requested (on the side) wedding cakes, and they obliged, except for SSM cases. I wonder how that would play out. Would be interesting.
It depends on if they were doing it as part of their business or as a baker's hobby. And I mean the legal requirements of a hobby, not doing it through an existing business contract and making no more than a certain low amount of money. But if they did it as a business service, charged for it, claimed the income on their taxes under their business, then it's a business service covered by the same non-discrimination laws.
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Let's say they did it as a hobby. I'd be curious who, other than IRS audit, is checking if their hobby meets legal requirement.
I'm not seeing the connection made between being kicked out and responsibility for suicide. Are you? Can you cite that part?
