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Homosexuality and religious.

We Never Know

No Slack
You're getting awfully defensive over an if statement.

What is wrong with this post which you called bs?
"If you do not approve of the totality of someone's life solely on the basis of the adult with whom they have consensual sex, then you are defitely a bigot."

"You're getting awfully defensive over an if statement."

You're statement was and accusation toward me..
"Neither are good reasons for thinking other people shouldn't be gay. If you think someone else should stop being gay, I'd call that prejudiced against gays"

"What is wrong with this post which you called bs?
"If you do not approve of the totality of someone's life solely on the basis of the adult with whom they have consensual sex, then you are defitely a bigot."

Because I never said I didn't approve. I said I didn't agree. There is s difference.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The human mind is prone to err. So we rely on it to establish right and wrong, good and bad or moral and immoral? Then who’s version is the correct one? The problem here is there is wide disagreement regarding the above.

So even with critical thinking the human mind is error prone and cannot be fully relied upon. Placing one’s entire confidence and full faith in a mechanism which has been proven to make major errors is very questionable if not foolish.

So we Baha’is choose to place our full trust and confidence in the perfection of God instead rather than the error prone human mind.
From an atheist or differing theist perspective you're still choosing an errant mind, just the mind of an errant writer of scripture instead of your own. I'd rather make use of my own mind thak hope a god and his prophets and his scribes will be making better moral judgements for me.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"You're getting awfully defensive over an if statement."

You're statement was and accusation toward me..
"Neither are good reasons for thinking other people shouldn't be gay. If you think someone else should stop being gay, I'd call that prejudiced against gays"

"What is wrong with this post which you called bs?
"If you do not approve of the totality of someone's life solely on the basis of the adult with whom they have consensual sex, then you are defitely a bigot."

Because I never said I didn't approve. I said I didn't agree. There is s difference.
Thats not an accusation my dude. It's an if;then statement. Would you feel less defensive if I said 'if someone believes this, I believe this', even though they're the exact same statement?

Okay then let's change it into something we can agree on.
"People who think other people need to stop being gay, because being gay is immoral behavior for reasons they cannot rationally describe, are bigots." Agreed?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That goes without saying, although one might think that you would recommend that those who find some of those laws offensive to try the religion out. But as you can see, some people don't like at least some Baha'i laws enough to object from the outside.



Humanism works. It's been tested in a few arenas and has always made lives better there where religions never had before or since. We just need the religions to stand down. If humanism can purge the world of religious homophobia, it will have made the world a better place. It HAS been doing that, and that alone is responsible for all of the reduction in homosexual oppression that we have seen - why it is no longer illegal or called a mental disease, why gays can now adopt, teach, coach and serve on juries - all prohibited when i was young - and why they can marry and enjoy the protections of the state that the law affords heterosexuals. No religion did that, but one is threatening to undo it.

Humanism is the driving force for unity in the West. It underlies the left's support of tolerance and inclusion, including LGBTQ+. The religions are the brakes to that progress. What is Baha'ism actually doing there apart from spreading homophobic doctrine? All I see are vague platitudes about unity with no plan. What would the Baha'i do with the world if given its ear? I can tell you exactly what the humanists would do - what you see them do every day, what they are doing on this thread, and what the American Constitution embodies.

Here's a bit of the harm homophobic attitudes cause: "Lavender ceiling - an upper limit to professional advancement imposed upon LGBTQ+ people that is not readily perceived or openly acknowledged."

This is what is meant by systemic violence ("the harm people suffer from the social structure and the institutions sustaining and reproducing it.") - how ingrained prejudices perhaps not even experienced as such contribute destructively to the lives of some others.

And here's a bit more, as well as somebody pushing back at the religious homophobia. This is what this doctrine does:

306728826_2275267062630354_8161002470718213568_n.jpg




And how do you think that believing by faith is perceived? It's the greatest error possible to make according to the rules of reason. Every time one does that, he commits a non sequitur fallacy. Every time. Faith cannot possibly be a path to truth if the opposite of what you believe by faith to be truth can just as easily be believed by faith? What value is a method that can take you to every wrong idea imaginable if one sidesteps the vetting process that critical thought offers, which takes one to sound conclusions instead?

I'd say that any critical thinker's mind is more error-free than any faith-based thinker's.



And what do you say to one who finds some of those commands ugly?



You all presented the same argument, which everybody else found irrelevant, a point none of the Baha'i here addressed. The Baha'i all claimed that they weren't homophobes because they didn't actively hate or persecute gays. Their collocutors to a man said that wasn't essential to homophobia - that just accepting the spiritual or moral inferiority of gays was sufficient. The Baha'i claimed that they don't do that, and their answer wasn't believed. We understand that a loving Baha'i father of a gay son can treat his son as well as one who is not homophobic, but he cannot escape the fact that his religion teaches (and he must accept because he was told and believed that it comes from a good god) that there is something wrong with his son. And if his son knows the religion, he knows that about his father, someone the son may love very much, but has to live with the understanding that he is not as good as a straight son in the eyes of his father's god. None of that is connected to active feelings of hatred, so repeatedly defending against the charge of homophobic doctrine that has been accepted as God-given by saying there is no feeling of hatred has had no impact.



They hold the same belief. Nobody wants to defend against that charge when their religion teaches that homosexuals are defective. It's a losing argument these days, one that only serves further to make the point that religious homophobia is moving outside the Overton window (acceptable opinion).



What you call bashing is moral indignation regarding a doctrine repugnant to humanists, and that has not abated at all. Why would it?

The real argument here is that you don’t believe in God and we do. Because IF there is a God and He DID send Baha’u’llah then all these accusations are false and baseless. But you rely wholly on the imperfect fallible mind in making these judgements being in denial that the human mind errs. So the only thing to do is each go our own way.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Because IF there is a God and He DID send Baha’u’llah then all these accusations are false and baseless.
So basically what you're saying is, God is ultimately responsible for the law and guidance given by Baha'u'llah? If so, then that just means God is anti-gay and discriminates.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Thats not an accusation my dude. It's an if;then statement. Would you feel less defensive if I said 'if someone believes this, I believe this', even though they're the exact same statement?

Okay then let's change it into something we can agree on.
"People who think other people need to stop being gay, because being gay is immoral behavior for reasons they cannot rationally describe, are bigots." Agreed?
I try to use "a person" "some people" "one"(can), etc.

"People who think other people need to stop being gay"...

People who think other people need to stop being gay for whatever reason is bigotry. Those people not only do not lije homosexuals, they are also trying to tell someone how to live their life.

Bigotry:
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

However one can not agree with it and not be a bigot.
Don't agree/disagree
To not share the same opinion or feeling as someone.


I never brought up approve or disapprove. All I said was "don't agree".

Answer these two questions and it might help clear things up a bit...

Some people like eating snails because they are good.
I don't agree. I think its gross.
-do I hate snail eaters?
-do I have snailophobia?
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I try to use "a person" "some people" "one"(can), etc.

"People who think other people need to stop being gay"...

People who think other people need to stop being gay for whatever reason is bigotry. Those people not only do not lije homosexuals, they are also trying to tell someone how to live their life.

Bigotry:
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

However one can not agree with it and not be a bigot.
Don't agree/disagree
To not share the same opinion or feeling as someone.


Some people like eating snails because they are good.
I don't agree. I think its gross.
-do I hate snail eaters?
-do I have snailophobia?
Unreasonable attachment to the idea that being gay is immoral is something I think qualifies as being bigoted against homosexuals.
Disagreeing seems a weasel word. You're using disagreement in the same way as trying to say you're not gay. But literally nobody is talking about that.
"I disagree with homosexuality" "why" "because it's gross." "That's not a disagreement with homosexuality, that's a disagreement with *you* being homosexual."

The contentious point is only if someone thinks being gay is immoral.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Unreasonable attachment to the idea that being gay is immoral is something I think qualifies as being bigoted against homosexuals.
Disagreeing seems a weasel word. You're using disagreement in the same way as trying to say you're not gay. But literally nobody is talking about that.
"I disagree with homosexuality" "why" "because it's gross." "That's not a disagreement with homosexuality, that's a disagreement with *you* being homosexual."

The contentious point is only if someone thinks being gay is immoral.

I never brought up approve or disapprove. All I said was "don't agree".

Answer these two questions and it might help clear things up a bit...

Some people like eating snails because they are good.
I don't agree. I think its gross.
-do I hate snail eaters?
-am I a snailophobic?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
From being gay to not being gay, obviously. Could you change from being straight to being gay? Only I could not, and the sheer pernicious arrogance of asking others to is sickening.

People join our religion voluntarily. They deeply love Baha’u’llah so want to obey Him out of love for Him. He has won the deep love and trust of Baha’is and so they try to follow His teachings.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I never brought up approve or disapprove. All I said was "don't agree".

Answer these two questions and it might help clear things up a bit...

Some people like eating snails because they are good.
I don't agree. I think its gross.
-do I hate snail eaters?
-am I a snailophobic?
Sounds like you're the one instigating the confusion using words in ways nobody else here uses. Nobody says 'I disagree with homosexuality' when they really mean 'I'm straight.'
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
My approval or disapproval of how anyone lives their live is "not warranted"
IOW its not necessary/not needed.
So, maybe you approve maybe disapprove, but that doesn't matter?

I'm surprised you don't have an opinion one way or the other. But I have no reason to doubt what you're saying.

Thanks,
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Science is a tool for gaining knowledge of reality, religion for indulging subjective wishful thinking, and dulling critical thinking.



It isn't, this was just explained to you. Note with irony you aren't pouring approbation on science for the diseases your deity created, that science has helped cured, or even eradicated, irony overload.



By spreading useless ineffectual platitudes, and homophobic hate speech. Or denying objective facts like species evolution, or that humans are animals. Again I strongly disagree.



As if no one else had the wit, that's just hilarious. Wishful thinking and woolly platitudes, peppered with denials of scientific facts and blind adherence to bigoted doctrine, don't suggest profundity to me.


Pray for the founder of your cult to change Putin's mind, let us know how it goes. In the mean time I think the moral thing to do is support the Ukrainian's fight to defend their sovereign nation, and help Russians get rid of a vile religious dictator.

Baha’u’llah’s teachings say that if one leader takes up arms against another then the world should arise and unitedly oppose him. The world is not united on the issue of Ukraine yet so Putin can continue his aggression until then.

Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. (Baha’u’llah)
 
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