Homosexuality in the ancient world

[Duke_Leto]

I don't know if all trangender people have surgery and take hormones, or not. In the ancient world probably not.. Although they did castrate janissaries

Janissaries were circumcized (since they were converted to Islam), not castrated.

 

[sooda]

Janissaries were circumcized (since they were converted to Islam), not castrated.

You're right.

Janissaries were never at any time castrated. They were circumcized though since they were converted to islam and it is a tradition. The ones who were castrated were harem aghas. They were mostly African male slaves who were looking after harem women. They were castrated so that they shall not have sexual affairs with the harem women.

 

[sooda]

Yes it has. It has been around where it's been accepted, and it's been around where it has not been accepted. It has, so far as anyone can make out, occurred at approximately the same rate through recorded human history. And I think there just might possibly be something to be learned from that -- which is that it sure as heck seems to a naturally-occurring feature of human development.

By the way, for those who equate "naturally-occurring" with "God ordained," that presents a wee problem, doesn't it?

Matthew 19:12

King James Bible
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

But, even by that measurement I don't see the justification for burning St Joan or thousands of witches.. unless the witch owned some prime bottom land and good milk cows.

Yep, there is a lot of accuracy in this.
Based on what I've seen, vindictive treatment of outsiders (eg. Hermits, non-conformers generally, women who refuse men, deformities or medical conditions, etc) are all common enough reasons for the mob to denounce an individual.

Actual evidence of witchcraft seems more rare.

 

[sooda]

Yep, there is a lot of accuracy in this.
Based on what I've seen, vindictive treatment of outsiders (eg. Hermits, non-conformers generally, women who refuse men, deformities or medical conditions, etc) are all common enough reasons for the mob to denounce an individual.

Actual evidence of witchcraft seems more rare.

I'd say non-existent.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Matthew 19:12

King James Bible
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

And in the context of this thread, this means what, exactly? To me, it seems to be something thrown into the discussion hoping it will have some relevance, but with no clear idea of what relevance that might be.

 

[sooda]

And in the context of this thread, this means what, exactly? To me, it seems to be something thrown into the discussion hoping it will have some relevance, but with no clear idea of what relevance that might be.

It means the ancients were aware of those who were sexually different.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It means the ancients were aware of those who were sexually different.

So what? Evolution has made us all splendidly able to identify difference in others, with the merest glance.

I'm trying to understand what it is you are arguing for...or against.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'd say non-existent.

Me too, but I'm making allowance for 'evidence' not equating to 'proven'.

There can be evidence for things such as eye witnesses who mistook what they saw, misinterpreted it, or simply lie, for example.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

By the way, if I was going to have to be really, really different, this is the one I'd want (warning, do not go to the link if you are at all offended by sexual content.) Meet The Man With Two Functioning Penises

That was a hoax. The pics are Photoshopped.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Africa
Women in Lesotho engaged in socially sanctioned long term, erotic relationships, named motsoalle. Male Azande warriors in the northern Congo routinely took on boy-wives between the ages of twelve and twenty, who helped with household tasks and participated in sex with their older husbands.

Americas
Homosexual and transgender individuals were common among other pre-conquest civilizations in Latin America, such as the Aztecs, Mayans, Quechuas, Moches, Zapotecs, and the Tupinambá of Brazil.

Ancient Asyrria
In the ancient Assyrian society, homosexuality was present and it was also not prohibited. Religiously, there was nothing amiss with homosexual love between men. Some ancient religious Assyrian texts contain prayers for divine blessings on homosexual relationships.

Ancient China
Homosexuality has been acknowledged in China since ancient times. Nearly every emperor in the Han Dynasty had one or more male sex partners.

Ancient Greece
The ancient Greeks did not conceive of sexual orientation as a social identifier as Western societies have done for the past century. Greek society did not distinguish sexual desire or behaviour by the gender of the participants, but rather by the role that each participant played in the sex act, that of active penetrator or passive penetrated.

Ancient India
Kama Sutra, the ancient Indian treatise on love talks about feelings for same sexes. The Laws of Manu, the foundational work of Hindu law, mentions a “third sex”, members of which may engage in non-traditional gender expression and homosexual activities.

Anient Rome
The “conquest mentality” of the ancient Romans shaped Roman homosexual practices. In the Roman Republic, a citizen’s political liberty was defined in part by the right to preserve his body from physical compulsion or use by others; for the male citizen to submit his body to the giving of pleasure was considered servile.

Homosexuality in the Ancient World

I think that you should also add Native Americans to this list.

Rather than emphasising the homosexuality of these persons, however, many Native Americans focused on their spiritual gifts. American Indian traditionalists, even today, tend to see a person's basic character as a reflection of their spirit. Since everything that exists is thought to come from the spirit world, androgynous or transgender persons are seen as doubly blessed, having both the spirit of a man and the spirit of a woman. Thus, they are honoured for having two spirits, and are seen as more spiritually gifted than the typical masculine male or feminine female.

Therefore, many Native American religions, rather than stigmatising such persons, often looked to them as religious leaders and teachers.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

What if the witch turned me into a Knute?

LOL Now why would a witch turn you into a football player? (Knute Rockne Norwegian-American football player and coach at the University of Notre Dame)

 

[Stevicus]

LOL Now why would a witch turn you into a football player? (Knute Rockne Norwegian-American football player and coach at the University of Notre Dame)

She wanted to win one for the Gipper.

 

[sooda]

I think that you should also add Native Americans to this list.

Thanks.. That's extraordinary.

 

[Niblo]

Well if the statues are any indication......

That's why jelly babies are all female....saves on the jelly.

 

[Niblo]

I can't believe that @columbus and I posted the same thing at exactly the same time!

Ah yes....but his crow bar was not your crowbar.

 

[Niblo]

You mean a salamander? A newt?

She did that to me.......but I got better!

PS: You can learn of my case in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. But we got her in the end.

 

[onevoice]

Africa
Women in Lesotho engaged in socially sanctioned long term, erotic relationships, named motsoalle. Male Azande warriors in the northern Congo routinely took on boy-wives between the ages of twelve and twenty, who helped with household tasks and participated in sex with their older husbands.

Americas
Homosexual and transgender individuals were common among other pre-conquest civilizations in Latin America, such as the Aztecs, Mayans, Quechuas, Moches, Zapotecs, and the Tupinambá of Brazil.

Ancient Asyrria
In the ancient Assyrian society, homosexuality was present and it was also not prohibited. Religiously, there was nothing amiss with homosexual love between men. Some ancient religious Assyrian texts contain prayers for divine blessings on homosexual relationships.

Ancient China
Homosexuality has been acknowledged in China since ancient times. Nearly every emperor in the Han Dynasty had one or more male sex partners.

Ancient Greece
The ancient Greeks did not conceive of sexual orientation as a social identifier as Western societies have done for the past century. Greek society did not distinguish sexual desire or behaviour by the gender of the participants, but rather by the role that each participant played in the sex act, that of active penetrator or passive penetrated.

Ancient India
Kama Sutra, the ancient Indian treatise on love talks about feelings for same sexes. The Laws of Manu, the foundational work of Hindu law, mentions a “third sex”, members of which may engage in non-traditional gender expression and homosexual activities.

Anient Rome
The “conquest mentality” of the ancient Romans shaped Roman homosexual practices. In the Roman Republic, a citizen’s political liberty was defined in part by the right to preserve his body from physical compulsion or use by others; for the male citizen to submit his body to the giving of pleasure was considered servile.

Homosexuality in the Ancient World

Are you not, perhaps, begging the question?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How did they separate the men from the boys in ancient Greece?

With a crow bar.
Tom

With a crowbar.

I can't believe that @columbus and I posted the same thing at exactly the same time!

Yeah, but columbus' was funnier. You need to work on your delivery.

 

[sooda]

Are you not, perhaps, begging the question?

Meaning what? Isn't it clear that homosexuality has been around since the beginning?