House Democrat Health Plan

[Mister_T]

The key here is why so many folks cannot provide for themselves and need the help of others in the first place.

No, the key here is why a public service who's aim is to help it's citizens, has turned into bleed-you-until-you're-dry profit venture at poorer people's expense.

You cannot sit in school and refuse to learn and then go out in adult life with no valuable skills and wonder why your life sucks.

There are middle class people can't afford healthcare, Rick. Are you trying to say that middle class people are lazy and didn't go to school either? This is also besides the fact that there are many, many poor people with a college degree that do not have coverage. Damn their lazy uneducated hides.

The icing on the cake is believing someone else owes you something for your poor performance.

No, the icing on the cake is that our nation and a good portion of it's citizens, has turned into a greedy, self-serving and unethical money machine who exploits it's less fortunate.

 

[YamiB.]

The key here is why so many folks cannot provide for themselves and need the help of others in the first place.

You cannot sit in school and refuse to learn and then go out in adult life with no valuable skills and wonder why your life sucks.

The icing on the cake is believing someone else owes you something for your poor performance.

For your statement to actually apply to our country we would need an equitable education system which we do not.

There is also the obvious problem with your thinking that those who start out in wealthy family are given an advantage in maintaining their position. A person should not be faulted so much for finishing second in a race where the winner had a head start.

 

[Autodidact]

The key here is why so many folks cannot provide for themselves and need the help of others in the first place.

You cannot sit in school and refuse to learn and then go out in adult life with no valuable skills and wonder why your life sucks.

The icing on the cake is believing someone else owes you something for your poor performance.

Because many jobs don't provide health insurance, and on the private market it costs $500-1000 per individual.

 

[Autodidact]

The key here is why so many folks cannot provide for themselves and need the help of others in the first place.

You cannot sit in school and refuse to learn and then go out in adult life with no valuable skills and wonder why your life sucks.

The icing on the cake is believing someone else owes you something for your poor performance.

Unless you do everything right and then get sick. You lose your health insurance and can never get it again for love or money. Then the icing on the cake is people like Rick insulting your initiative when the only thing you did wrong was to get sick.

 

[Copernicus]

The key here is why so many folks cannot provide for themselves and need the help of others in the first place.

Good question. Did Jesus ever stop to ask himself that?

You cannot sit in school and refuse to learn and then go out in adult life with no valuable skills and wonder why your life sucks.

It is human nature for us always to assume that the blame for our troubles lies elsewhere. Sometimes, it actually does, however. Malaria, for example, can be blamed on mosquitoes. But you make it sound as if you make it a principle never to contribute to charities. You never know when your hard-earned money might go to someone who doesn't deserve it.

The icing on the cake is believing someone else owes you something for your poor performance.

I wish that there were a way to determine who was genuinely worthy of health care and who was not. Then we could refuse it even to rich people who have the means to pay for it but don't deserve it. Or maybe your experiences tell you that wealthy people are wealthy precisely because they deserve the best things from life.

Reverend Rick, did you know that there is a good side to illness and injuries? They tend to reduce the surplus population. Christmas? Bah! Humbug!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

There are (legitimate) selfish reasons to support universal health insurance, Reverend Rick (and Kathryn).

I might lose my insurance someday due to a "pre existing condition", or due to job loss, etc. Or I might get sick and find out I'm not really covered. Or I can't afford it. I'm willing to pay a little more in taxes now so I can get some help if/when it happens to me.

And it could happen to you, too.

 

[Jackytar]

Check this out - link.

Jackytar

 

[Reverend Rick]

There are middle class people can't afford health care, Rick. Are you trying to say that middle class people are lazy and didn't go to school either?

No, I am saying these folks you refer to do not manage their money correctly. They value a nice car more than health care.

We are talking middle class here. We have some money to work with in this instance. My son is middle class. He pays 1500 a month for health care and does with out things like a nice car or cable TV.

People with I-phones and no health care are the perfect example.

I am so sick and tired of everyone feeling entitled to succeed in life. People get sick and die. People get sick and get better and have to pay medical bills.

Boo Hoo, no new Acura for me this year. Get a second job and take responsibility for yourself. You can threaten to file bankruptcy and find that creditors will work with you and reduce the amount owed and accept flexible terms of payment.

Remember folks, we are talking middle class here. Anyone want to take a stab at what the median income is in our country?

 

[Copernicus]

No, I am saying these folks you refer to do not manage their money correctly. They value a nice car more than health care.

The problem, of course, is that you don't really know how much money to set aside, because you don't know what illnesses or injuries you will sustain in the future. If you can afford it, you can bet against an insurance company that you will likely get seriously ill or injured, but they have ways of cheating on that bet.

We are talking middle class here. We have some money to work with in this instance. My son is middle class. He pays 1500 a month for health care and does with out things like a nice car or cable TV.

His payments can become a comical tragedy if the insurance company discovers a way to deny his claims against future medical treatments. They are getting very good at doing that. For example, I now find that even generic drug treatments prescribed by my doctor can be denied because some panel of insurance bureaucrats has failed to put them on the reliquary.

People with I-phones and no health care are the perfect example.

Most of those people are on insurance plans, but I'm quite sure that you can find people who are not. That is especially true of young people, whose illusion of health and safety is often much stronger than that of older people.

Remember folks, we are talking middle class here. Anyone want to take a stab at what the median income is in our country?

That is irrelevant, since health care costs can easily overwhelm any income level. People who are in need of health care that they cannot afford are not always irresponsible people, but that seems to be what you would have us believe.

 

[Autodidact]

No, I am saying these folks you refer to do not manage their money correctly. They value a nice car more than health care.

We are talking middle class here. We have some money to work with in this instance. My son is middle class. He pays 1500 a month for health care and does with out things like a nice car or cable TV.

People with I-phones and no health care are the perfect example.

I am so sick and tired of everyone feeling entitled to succeed in life. People get sick and die. People get sick and get better and have to pay medical bills.

Boo Hoo, no new Acura for me this year. Get a second job and take responsibility for yourself. You can threaten to file bankruptcy and find that creditors will work with you and reduce the amount owed and accept flexible terms of payment.

Remember folks, we are talking middle class here. Anyone want to take a stab at what the median income is in our country?

And I'm sick and tired of $1500 to go to an industry whose job is denying people health care.

 

[jamaesi]

No, I am saying these folks you refer to do not manage their money correctly. They value a nice car more than health care.

We are talking middle class here. We have some money to work with in this instance. My son is middle class. He pays 1500 a month for health care and does with out things like a nice car or cable TV.

People with I-phones and no health care are the perfect example.

I am so sick and tired of everyone feeling entitled to succeed in life. People get sick and die. People get sick and get better and have to pay medical bills.

Boo Hoo, no new Acura for me this year. Get a second job and take responsibility for yourself. You can threaten to file bankruptcy and find that creditors will work with you and reduce the amount owed and accept flexible terms of payment.

Remember folks, we are talking middle class here. Anyone want to take a stab at what the median income is in our country?

Since you do this schtick so often- people are just stupid and waste their money and deserve to starve to death or die because they can't afford medical treatment and whatever- I'd like to see some sources for this. Could you provide a link to a website or article or reference a book or something that proves that people who can't afford health insurance can't afford it because they bought a brand new car and an iPhone?

Otherwise could you pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease stop this strawman?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

No, I am saying these folks you refer to do not manage their money correctly. They value a nice car more than health care.

We are talking middle class here. We have some money to work with in this instance. My son is middle class. He pays 1500 a month for health care and does with out things like a nice car or cable TV.

People with I-phones and no health care are the perfect example.

I am so sick and tired of everyone feeling entitled to succeed in life. People get sick and die. People get sick and get better and have to pay medical bills.

Boo Hoo, no new Acura for me this year. Get a second job and take responsibility for yourself. You can threaten to file bankruptcy and find that creditors will work with you and reduce the amount owed and accept flexible terms of payment.

Remember folks, we are talking middle class here. Anyone want to take a stab at what the median income is in our country?

Read. Learn. Then speak.

"Despite strong ties to the workforce—over eight in ten uninsured come from working families—about two-thirds of the uninsured are individuals and families who are poor (incomes less than the federal poverty level or $21,203 for a family of four in 2007) or near-poor (with incomes between one and two times the poverty level). "

"For many of the uninsured, the costs of health insurance and medical care are weighed against equally essential needs. The uninsured are about three times as likely as those with health coverage to live in a household that is having difficulty paying monthly expenses as basic as rent, food, and utilities.20"

"In 2007, 58% of all low-income employees were offered and eligible for employer-sponsored coverage, leaving more than four in ten without access to this coverage (Figure 16)."

"For example, a parent in a family of three working full-time at the minimum wage could not qualify for Medicaid in 29 states in 2007.44"
​

http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-05.pdf
(quotes originally from the 2008 report)

 

[Reverend Rick]

Read. Learn. Then speak.

How about answering my question. What is the medium income in the United States?

"Despite strong ties to the workforce—over eight in ten uninsured come from working families—about two-thirds of the uninsured are individuals and families who are poor (incomes less than the federal poverty level or $21,203 for a family of four in 2007) or near-poor (with incomes between one and two times the poverty level). "

"For many of the uninsured, the costs of health insurance and medical care are weighed against equally essential needs. The uninsured are about three times as likely as those with health coverage to live in a household that is having difficulty paying monthly expenses as basic as rent, food, and utilities.20"

"In 2007, 58% of all low-income employees were offered and eligible for employer-sponsored coverage, leaving more than four in ten without access to this coverage (Figure 16)."

"For example, a parent in a family of three working full-time at the minimum wage could not qualify for Medicaid in 29 states in 2007.44"
​

http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-05.pdf
(quotes originally from the 2008 report)

Are these people making the medium income?

 

[Magic Man]

No, I am saying these folks you refer to do not manage their money correctly. They value a nice car more than health care.

No, they just can't afford health care along with shelter, food and clothes.

We are talking middle class here. We have some money to work with in this instance. My son is middle class. He pays 1500 a month for health care and does with out things like a nice car or cable TV.

$1,500 a month!? You don't see anything wrong with that? If someone can afford $1,500 a month for health insurance, they are middle class. I hate to break it to you. Cable TV only saves you maybe $100 a month and a nice car as opposed to a cheap, old car, only saves you maybe $200-400 a month. So, maybe a savings of $400 a month. That still means he could have those things and afford $1,100 a month for health insurance. That's a second mortgage. Most middle class people can't afford a second mortgage.

Besides, even if that's the case, do you really think it's acceptable for people to be paying $1,500 a month for health insurance?

People with I-phones and no health care are the perfect example.

First, we're not even talking about these people. Why do you rely so much on these strawman arguments?

Second, as I just pointed out, I-phones cost, what, $70-80 a month? How is cutting out $80 a month going to allow someone to afford $1,000 for health care?

I am so sick and tired of everyone feeling entitled to succeed in life. People get sick and die. People get sick and get better and have to pay medical bills.

I'm sick and tired of people thinking that people wanting basic medical care counts as "people feeling entitled to succeed in life".

People should not get sick and die simply because they aren't rich enough to afford health care.

Boo Hoo, no new Acura for me this year. Get a second job and take responsibility for yourself. You can threaten to file bankruptcy and find that creditors will work with you and reduce the amount owed and accept flexible terms of payment.

You really are out of touch, and don't car who sees how ignorant you are, huh?

Again, no new Acura means a savings of maybe $400 a month. Last I checked, that doesn't equal or even come close to $1,500.

Also, as has been explained to you many, many times now. Many of the people who can't afford health care have more than one job, and probably work harder than you do. Please get your facts straight.

Remember folks, we are talking middle class here. Anyone want to take a stab at what the median income is in our country?

Yes, we're talking middle class, the class that can't afford $1,500 a month for health insurance for the most part. My wife and I are middle class, I'd say. I have no car payment and she is paying for a $13,000 car, and we just bought a small house paying slightly more than we were for our apartment. We have cable and internet. We pay about $100 for health insurance through her job. There is no way in hell, even if we got rid of her car, the TV and the internet, that we'd be able to afford $1,500 a month. That's more than our mortgage payment. And we don't even have kids yet.

I'm glad you're able to afford health care, but you need to realize that you and your son are not average Americans. You need to start looking at the problem as it actually is, not as you want it to be.

 

[Magic Man]

How about answering my question. What is the medium income in the United States?

Are these people making the medium income?

Not that it's at all relevant, but just for you, Rick I went and looked it up. In 2007, the median household income was $50,740. That means after taxes (being very generous in how much taxes they don't pay), the median household gets about $45,000 a year. That means $3,750 a month. Maybe you can explain to me how that family affords $1,500 a month in health care because I just don't see it. That would leave them with $2,250 a month. If they then have a $1,300 mortgage (which is less than my $1,400 one, even though a family of 4 would feel cramped in my house), that leaves $950 for food, clothes, transportation, gas and electric, phone, school/children's activities. That's an extremely tight budget without a TV or computer or cell phones. And that's the median household income. That means that 50% of households make less than that.

Sorry to bring facts to the table in a discussion with you, Rick. I know how you hate them. But there it is, in plain numbers. Even without "luxuries" like a TV, cell phones or internet or any other luxury you could come up with the median household in the U.S. would struggle to afford what your "middle class" son pays for insurance.

Now, would you please drop your strawman "if people would just get rid of luxuries, they could afford it, too" and your "everyone who can't afford health insurance is lazy" arguments?

 

[Autodidact]

How about answering my question. What is the medium income in the United States?

Are these people making the medium income?

In 2007, the median annual household income rose 1.3% to $50,233.00 according to the Census Bureau.

Wiki is your friend.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Not that it's at all relevant, but just for you, Rick I went and looked it up. In 2007, the median household income was $50,740. That means after taxes (being very generous in how much taxes they don't pay), the median household gets about $45,000 a year. That means $3,750 a month. Maybe you can explain to me how that family affords $1,500 a month in health care because I just don't see it. That would leave them with $2,250 a month. If they then have a $1,300 mortgage (which is less than my $1,400 one, even though a family of 4 would feel cramped in my house), that leaves $950 for food, clothes, transportation, gas and electric, phone, school/children's activities. That's an extremely tight budget without a TV or computer or cell phones.

It may be a tight budget, but I know people who do more for less. For one, many people in my state would think 1300 a month is a bit steep for a house payment. My son put some money down on his house and has a 1,000.00 payment including escrow.

I may have it wrong, perhaps many people spend too much money on clothes and eating out. The big thing you are missing is, being responsible and self reliant is priceless. Who told you life would be easy? Don't you see how making ends meet and providing for your family builds character? It makes you appreciate the finer things in life when you finally climb up into the upper half of wage earners.

Most folks who make a medium income only have one job. They could always do better. Work on that Masters or Doctorate. Take on an evening or weekend job.

You would be amazed at the amount of money you save when you work more and play less.

 

[Zephyr]

In 2007, the median annual household income rose 1.3% to $50,233.00 according to the Census Bureau.

Wiki is your friend.

Damn that is a very high number.

 

[T-Dawg]

It may be a tight budget, but I know people who do more for less. For one, many people in my state would think 1300 a month is a bit steep for a house payment. My son put some money down on his house and has a 1,000.00 payment including escrow.

I may have it wrong, perhaps many people spend too much money on clothes and eating out. The big thing you are missing is, being responsible and self reliant is priceless. Who told you life would be easy? Don't you see how making ends meet and providing for your family builds character? It makes you appreciate the finer things in life when you finally climb up into the upper half of wage earners.

Most folks who make a medium income only have one job. They could always do better. Work on that Masters or Doctorate. Take on an evening or weekend job.

You would be amazed at the amount of money you save when you work more and play less.

Rick, I don't deny that personal responsibility and hard work are helpful, but...

Do you actually do any of this stuff yourself???

PS: You say that people should work on their Masters or Docorate... but college is one of the most expensive things a person can do, not to mention that it takes up precious working time. How are they supposed to pay for college and healthcare with one job (since they're too busy at college to work two) when they can't even afford a few luxuries and healthcare with two jobs?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Damn that is a very high number.

This is the point. If you make enough, you can afford health care.

So, is the problem health care is too high, or is it many folks are under the medium income? I say people need to become more productive so they can afford the basics in life not just have them handed out to everyone.

If any point was made here in this thread, it would be easier to give you a house or a car than health care.