Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
The most accurate appraisal of biblical teachings is "it depends on the author".
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How and Why did Hell become a Place of Punishment?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Yes, you are right... tell people that drugs are not good for them and they begin staring at it like a deer looking at an oncoming car with its lights turned on. Just no sense.
The Holy Bottom Burp
Active Member
Just as an aside, I think the 'traditional' view of hell is morphing into something else, even in Evangelical Christian circles. http://rethinkinghell.com/ I suspect many 'ordinary' Christians have a real problem reconciling "eternal conscious torment" with a Jesus who is portrayed as a god who loves us to bits and just wants to empower us etc. in the 21st century church. I'm not so sure annihilation is any more 'loving' TBH, but hey ho, I'm not a Christian so I'm not going to worry about it!
In Christianity discussions about heaven and hell are actually debates about what Christianity is. Christianity has a concept called 'Christ' which is a massive organism living in many bodies. Paul uses phrases like "Christ in you the hope of glory" and talks about how when one hurts all are hurt and how all Christians are one body. Self denial is central to joining this body. The concept of individuality which has since appeared changes the ideas about life in Christ or without Christ into ideas about living forever in a retirement world that is either pleasant or painful for you, the individual. Gone are the goals of improving this world we call home. The purifying fire of judgment that purifies the Church is then misconstrued to be painful individual punishment for individuals, just as the goal of God's will being done on Earth is misconstrued as a retirement that lasts forever (heaven) for the individual. When people abandon self denial and progress, then eternity and resurrection become an individual selfish thing which can be either pleasant or unpleasant for individuals.
In sixth century Islam appears, and it codifies Hell as an individual place of punishment and heaven as a place of reward directly in its holy books. There is no room for debate about the nature of death in Islam. Hell is not a group thing, nor is heaven. They are individual, and each individual goes to an eternal condition based upon their behavior in this life.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Ancient polytheistic religions weren't so much about controlling people as later monotheists ones were. For control, you need to have the threat of punishment to hold over people.
LOL....you know, its amazing to me how desperate the human race is to go on living......anywhere......as long as they are alive...somewhere. The churches give the impression that there are only two destinations after death...heaven and hell. Nowhere in the Bible do we find such a teaching. The only two choices given to man were "life or death". (Deuteronomy 30:15-20)
Deuteronomy 30:19...."This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall choose life, so that you and your offspring will live" (Complete Tanach)
Man was created as a material being with a spiritual aspect to his nature which facilitated the ability to appreciate his many blessings, acquired because of the loving qualities of his Creator, and hopefully to mirror those qualities in his life. That appreciation would be expressed in worship. Its a natural part of our make-up. Only when sin entered the picture did man's nature change....and not for the better. His expectation about how long he would live, also changed. Death came only as a result of disobedience, but the expectation to live forever never left us....it is programmed into our DNA.
After being evicted from the Garden, God barred the way to "the tree of life", thereby allowing the rebels to reap the consequences of their actions. (Genesis 3:221-24) Death came as a penalty, not as a natural part of life. God's first purpose was to have a perfect race of humans, reflecting his qualities, and taking care of this earth and everything on it as his representatives....forever.
Part of being made in God's image, meant that he had free will and an expectation of unending life. The reason why the woman was deceived by the devil is because he removed the penalty in her mind.....he told her she 'would not die'. God told her she would. So death came eventually and it caused them much grief, especially when one of their sons killed his brother out of jealousy.
God's people were never told about a spiritual afterlife of any description. However they did express faith in God's ability to restore human life by means of a resurrection. i.e. a full restoration to everlasting life on this earth, as God first intended.
Ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife of the kind taught in Christendom. Their belief was that the dead were confined to their graves (sheol) and that all prospects for future life was by means of a resurrection back to this life. The notion that there is some immortal spirit or soul that departed from the body at death was adopted from devil-inspired paganism. First century Christianity did not convey the idea of any immortal spirit departing at death. That idea has been grafted into scripture by an apostate church......the "weeds" that Jesus said were planted by the devil. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43)
If you read the gospel of John, you can see that when Jesus becomes King and his rulership is extended to this earth, then he will call the dead from their graves.....not from any spiritual realm. (John 5:28-29) He calls then from their tombs because they are all still in them, both "the righteous and the unrighteous". They haven't gone anywhere. This will be the general resurrection of the dead. The "first resurrection" has already taken place for those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven. (Revelation 20:6) They are resurrected with spiritual bodies because mortal humans cannot exist in the spirit realm. The Bible says they were not resurrected until Christ's return.....so they too slept in their graves until Christ's call. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was "sleeping" and that he was going to "awaken him". (John 11:11-14) Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him back to life? If he was in a better place, why bring him back, only to die a second time? There is so much more to this topic than meets the eye.
Please don't dismiss things so quickly.....remember that....."the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19)
Nothing in this world is as it seems.
Skwim
Veteran Member
The Christian hell appears to be an adaptation of the worst features of the Jewish Sheol
"'The traditional biblical interpretations explain that Sheol is a grim and desolated land below, occupied by the dead who continue their colorless existence irrespective of their earthly conduct."
source: Wikipedia
source: Wikipedia
and built upon it:
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church . . .defines hell as eternal fiery punishment for refusing to love God:
source: Wikipedia
and built some more. According to Christian Science:source: Wikipedia
"Mortal belief; error; lust; remorse; hatred; revenge; sin; sickness; death; suffering and self-destruction; self-imposed agony; effects of sin; that which 'worketh abomination or maketh a lie
source: Wikipedia
As for why this transformation took place, my opinion is that Christianity found it to be a great selling point. Convince people of the dire fate that lies ahead after they die and then sell them the machinery to avoid it. And the more dire the fate the quicker the sale and continued renewals. It also helps set up the church as a power over the lives of its followers, holding the fear of hell over their heads should they not want to adhere to its rulings and commands.
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That was a very good piece. IMO, I would only correct some minor points.
1)"Man was created as a material being with a spiritual aspect to his nature" I would say man was created a spiritual being with a material aspect
2) To choose life or death is correct - but He did create a Hell for Satan and his minions. But since the NT was written by Jews in revelation, you are hard pressed to convince me that it isn't in the OT
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2 ESV)
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Revelation 14:9-11 (ESV Strong's) 9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night,
Revelation 20:10 (ESV Strong's) 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 (ESV Strong's) 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Sure sounds like everlasting punishment to me! TORTURED day and night forever and ever. One can't be TORTURED if one does not exist!
Revelation 20:10 (ESV Strong's) 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 (ESV Strong's) 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Sure sounds like everlasting punishment to me! TORTURED day and night forever and ever. One can't be TORTURED if one does not exist!
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Revelation 14:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
If one ceases to exist, they would have rest.
If one ceases to exist, they would have rest.
The christian concept of hell (as used to threaten non believers and "naughty" children today) does not exist in the Bible. Before the 14th century with Dante's Inferno and Hieronymus Bosch the best threat, straight from the bible was a fiery furnace and gnashing of teeth.
Good to know that christian punishment is based on art and comedy
Altfish
Veteran Member
It was developed by religious leaders to keep the flock in check.
SabahTheLoner
Master of the Art of Couch Potato Cuddles
The name was, not so sure about the place (the Norse had more than one world under Midguard, not all of which were necessarily "evil". The realm of Hel was more or less a close equivalent of Hades, while fire had its own world). The entire Christian concept of hell is taken from a mix of other other pre-existing religious groups and emphasized the darker parts of it.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Short answer. The Bible teaches two hells. One is the grave, where everyone goes. The second is the fire that will destroy the evil people who will not follow God's rules. They will be burned up completely, not punished forever in constant flames.
Considering that myriads of spirit beings were created before the material universe and its inhabitants, I would say that God always intended for humans to be humans.....material creatures with a spiritual aspect to their nature. No other material creature was created to worship. Reflecting the Creator's qualities would mean an intelligent, well considered management of this earth and everything on it, just as God declared in his original mandate. (Genesis 1:28). Once sin entered into the world however, man's ability to reflect his Maker's qualities diminished drastically, descending into the sad and sorry mess we see today. (Romans 5:12)
Jesus' words help to clear this up, I believe.....
Matthew 10:28:
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna." (often erroneously rendered "hell")
Gehenna is not sheol or hades.....this is also referred to as the "lake of fire"...the place "prepared for the devil and his angels". (Matthew 25:41) So what did "gehenna" mean to a first century Jew? It was not the same place as "hades" or "sheol". "Destroy" means to obliterate something from existence. Whatever goes into "gehenna" is destroyed....not tortured.
Luke 12:4-5:
“I tell you, my friends, don’t be terrified by those who can kill the body but after that can do nothing more. 5 I’ll show you whom you should fear: fear the one who, after you have been killed, has the authority to throw you into hell (gehenna]. Indeed, I tell you, that’s the one you should fear." (CEB)
"Gehenna" appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and whereas many translators take the liberty to render it by the word “hell,” a number of modern translations transliterate the word from the Greek geʹen·na.
When a Bible translates several different words with one term...there is a recipe for confusion and misunderstanding.
In the King James Version the word “hell” is rendered from sheol, 31 times and from hades 10 times. This version, preferred by many, is not consistent, however, since sheol is also translated 31 times “grave” and 3 times “pit.” In the Douay Version sheol is rendered “hell” 64 times, “pit” once, and “death” once.
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . . . corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’”
So understanding the difference in these terms is important. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant when, after a tirade of condemnation against the Pharisees, in Matthew 23, he said....in verse 33: “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?
"Sheol" or "hades" was the common grave. To Jews, everyone went to sheol to await the coming resurrection under Messiah's kingdom. There was no conscious existence in that place. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10) It was a place of rest or repose...hence the typical "Rest in Peace" on many gravestones.
Genenna, on the other hand, was a "judgment".....something completely different.
What did the Jews understand "gehenna" to mean? It was in reference to the Valley of Hinnom, where in ancient times the apostate Jews used to sacrificed their children to a foreign god. Something the true God found detestable. (Jeremiah 7:31)
That place was converted into Jerusalem's garbage dump, just outside the city walls. Garbage was burned there with fires that never went out. They were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone or sulphur. The carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were often thrown into the fire to dispose of the remains. What the fire missed, the maggots finished off. (Mark 9:47-48) This meant in essence, that the criminal was not considered worthy of a decent burial and hence had no memorial tomb to signify that he had ever lived and his name would not bring reproach on his family. A tomb with a person's name inscribed, was also seen as a promise of a resurrection. It was believed that God would see the name and remember that person to call them forth from their grave, just as Jesus called Lazarus from his. (John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14)
So to a first century Jew, untouched by the false teaching of an immortal soul, gehenna was a place from which no one returned. Those in hades came back to life, but those relegated to "the judgment of gehenna" were never to see life again. It was a symbol of everlasting death. That equaled "everlasting condemnation" in the eyes of those who knew exactly what it meant.
This is what Daniel spoke about in the verse you quoted...
Revelation 20:13-14 says....
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and each one was judged according to their deeds. 14 And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire." (LEB)
Interestingly, "the sea" is also viewed as a grave for those who were 'buried' there.
The "lake of fire" is the place where things that are symbolically thrown in there, are never seen again. Since "death and the grave" also end up in there, it is obviously not a literal place. It is called the "second death" because it is the kind of death that has no resurrection. Death and its receptacle, (the grave) will never be seen again in "the new earth" (2 Peter 3:13)
When people have been taught about an immortal soul for their whole life, it is a difficult concept to dismiss, but everlasting life was always meant to be enjoyed in paradise conditions here on earth. God never abandoned his first purpose....he just took a detour when humans and angels decided to abuse their free will. Once the lessons are learned, all will return to the way God intended all along. Is there a reason why it shouldn't?
Confucian Mormon Buddhist
Member
But you're not comparing the same things? Hades is often translated as "Hell" now, but it really means something more like "afterlife," as it contained multiple regions, some of them Hells (punishment areas) and some of them Heavens (reward areas). Like, Elysium is a heaven, Tartarus is a hell.
I would assume the Aztecs, likewise, had different hells and heavens within their afterlife.
Ricktheheretic
"Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law"
Eternal punishment had a place in ancient Egyptian religion. The Egyptians believed in a place called "amenti" where the dead who were condemned by the gods were thought to suffer. But closer to the Judeo-Christian religions is Zoroastrianism. I think that some Zoroastrians believe hell to purgatorial and that even Angra-Mainyu (the evil god) will be redeemed eventually. I know that there is hell in Zoroastrianism, but I forget what they call it.