How and why did you reject christ?

[IndigoChild5559]

It had nothing to do with sacrifice while it clothed them from their sin? Or are you saying that when Adam and Eve went from naked and free to a knowledge of their nakedness, that they were wrong? Didn't God clothe them while they were still not needing clothes (in Eden)?

Do you wear clothes in public? Is it sinful or not to expose our parts in public?

God can sacrifice animals, just like people - a sacrifice is one giving up (life blood) to help another get by/atone.

Or should God have said, "Who told you 'you're naked'? Take those fig leaves off. You're NOT naked at all!"

From Adam through Zechariah, there is blood poured out. The blood of Yeshua atones for all our sin IMHO.

According to the text, Adam and Eve were NOT clothed before they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

If you want to believe that only blood atones for your sins, that's another discussion than this little subthread. There is nothing about God killing animals that speaks to blood atonement, as I said. It can be interpreted more than one way, so there is no way it can be used for evidence.

 

[BilliardsBall]

According to the text, Adam and Eve were NOT clothed before they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

If you want to believe that only blood atones for your sins, that's another discussion than this little subthread. There is nothing about God killing animals that speaks to blood atonement, as I said. It can be interpreted more than one way, so there is no way it can be used for evidence.

Huh? Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed, then ate the fruit and were ashamed, and then God slew an animal to cover their shame.

Atonement isn't just for sin, but for our shame, guilt and punishment. I believe Yeshua came to take our sin, shame, guilt and punishment. Is 53:8 "By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Huh? Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed, then ate the fruit and were ashamed, and then God slew an animal to cover their shame.

That's what I just said. This is why God slew animals. It had nothing to do with offerings.

Atonement isn't just for sin, but for our shame, guilt and punishment. I believe Yeshua came to take our sin, shame, guilt and punishment. Is 53:8 "By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished."

I realize you believe this. I don't expect to change your mind, either.

I'm just saying that I disagree. First, I reject the Christian scriptures (NT) because they contradict the Tanakh -- the Tanakh came first and is therefore the measuring reed for whether a teaching is of God. Second, I reject Jesus as messiah, because he didn't fulfill the prophecies. For example, he didn't bring all the Jews back to Israel, he didn't rule from Jerusalem, nor did he usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations.

 

[firedragon]

That's what I just said. This is why God slew animals. It had nothing to do with offerings.



I realize you believe this. I don't expect to change your mind, either.

I'm just saying that I disagree. First, I reject the Christian scriptures (NT) because they contradict the Tanakh -- the Tanakh came first and is therefore the measuring reed for whether a teaching is of God. Second, I reject Jesus as messiah, because he didn't fulfill the prophecies. For example, he didn't bring all the Jews back to Israel, he didn't rule from Jerusalem, nor did he usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations.

Just a question. What if your definition of the Messiah is also wrong? What kind of questioning have you done?

 

[columbus]

Just a question. What if your definition of the Messiah is also wrong? What kind of questioning have you done?

I'm not @IndigoChild5559, obviously.
But I can easily answer that question.

If the understanding of a well educated Jew isn't the definition of Messiah, then the word simply doesn't have one. The characteristics and goals of a Messiah were described in ancient Jewish texts.

If more modern people want to use the word to describe anybody they want to give authority to, then the word loses any particular definition and becomes a label instead. More like wizard, king, or shaman or something. It could include Martin Luther King Jr and Chairman Mao.

Tom

 

[firedragon]

I'm not @IndigoChild5559, obviously.
But I can easily answer that question.

If the understanding of a well educated Jew isn't the definition of Messiah, then the word simply doesn't have one. The characteristics and goals of a Messiah were described in ancient Jewish texts.

If more modern people want to use the word to describe anybody they want to give authority to, then the word loses any particular definition and becomes a label instead. More like wizard, king, or shaman or something. It could include Martin Luther King Jr and Chairman Mao.

Tom

Is that the inquiry you have done?

 

[columbus]

Is that the inquiry you have done?

Sure.
It's easy. You don't have to attend college classes to know that.

Neither Jesus nor any of the other people described as Messiahs accomplished what the primary goal, the very definition, of what a Messiah was. So, Jewish heretics started changing the meaning of the word, to suit their ideological agenda. And making up legends to retrofit Jesus back into the Jewish Scripture of old.

It doesn't take a degree to see this. In fact, it appears that such scholarship is an impediment to seeing the obvious.
Tom

 

[firedragon]

Sure.
It's easy. You don't have to attend college classes to know that.

Neither Jesus nor any of the other people described as Messiahs accomplished what the primary goal, the very definition, of what a Messiah was. So, Jewish heretics started changing the meaning of the word, to suit their ideological agenda. And making up legends to retrofit Jesus back into the Jewish Scripture of old.

It doesn't take a degree to see this. In fact, it appears that such scholarship is an impediment to seeing the obvious.
Tom

OK.

 

[columbus]

OK.

You are agreeing that scholarship is an impediment to seeing the obvious? Or maybe that the word Messiah hasn't got much meaning any more, due to Jewish heresies like Christianity and Islam?

I'm not sure what you meant by "OK".
Tom

 

[firedragon]

You are agreeing that scholarship is an impediment to seeing the obvious? Or maybe that the word Messiah hasn't got much meaning any more, due to Jewish heresies like Christianity and Islam?

I'm not sure what you meant by "OK".
Tom

I just said OK as an acknowledgement of your post. I didn't mean I agree to anything.

 

[columbus]

I just said OK as an acknowledgement of your post. I didn't mean I agree to anything.

Well, I have learned some things about you from our exchanges.
Tom

 

[firedragon]

Well, I have learned some things about you from our exchanges.
Tom

Nice.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just a question. What if your definition of the Messiah is also wrong? What kind of questioning have you done?

The concept of the Messiah originated with the Jewish writings. It's our concept. Others, such as Christians, Muslims, and Bahais, have come along later and tried to alter what the word means. But we Jews have pretty much ignored all that, and stuck to our guns. For us, messiah will always mean what it means in our own sacred texts.

What questioning have I done? Far too much! I've spent a good part of my life studying the religions of the world, especially Taoism, Lakota spirituality, and Chrisitanity. (IOW I've studied Islam some too.) So I'm familiar with other respective ideas of "messiah" too and how they differ from the Jewish messiah.

 

[firedragon]

The concept of the Messiah originated with the Jewish writings. It's our concept. Others, such as Christians, Muslims, and Bahais, have come along later and tried to alter what the word means. But we Jews have pretty much ignored all that, and stuck to our guns. For us, messiah will always mean what it means in our own sacred texts.

What questioning have I done? Far too much! I've spent a good part of my life studying the religions of the world, especially Taoism, Lakota spirituality, and Chrisitanity. (IOW I've studied Islam some too.) So I'm familiar with other respective ideas of "messiah" too and how they differ from the Jewish messiah.

Thats interesting. I understand. Its nice to dialog with a learned person. Especially someone learned in the Judaic faith or Judaism particularly because its rare.

Anyway, everyone predominantly understand the difference in the Jewish Messiah vs the Christian Messiah or rather the concepts. What do you really see as a difference between the Islamic concept or in particular the Messiah as cited in the Qur'an vs the Jewish Messiah?

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's what I just said. This is why God slew animals. It had nothing to do with offerings.



I realize you believe this. I don't expect to change your mind, either.

I'm just saying that I disagree. First, I reject the Christian scriptures (NT) because they contradict the Tanakh -- the Tanakh came first and is therefore the measuring reed for whether a teaching is of God. Second, I reject Jesus as messiah, because he didn't fulfill the prophecies. For example, he didn't bring all the Jews back to Israel, he didn't rule from Jerusalem, nor did he usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations.

And there's a number of issues:

You want the Messiah to do Isaiah 2 (make the swords plowshares) but haven't been told about Joel 3 (make the plowshares swords, for Har-Meggido).

He shall rule from Jerusalem and return the Jewish people to the land and make peace. The ancients knew of Messiah Ben-David (King of Peace/War) and Messiah Ben-Joseph (Suffering Servant). Yeshua is both and His father's name? JOSEPH. And from David's house--direct descent.

The NT is Jewish scripture. "Christian" means "follower of Mashiach". You're saying "I reject the Messianic scriptures these Jews wrote, because all 12 teams of writers/scribes all contradict Tanakh". Did all 12 go insane, then?

Where is the counter scripture? (I lived in Jerusalem at the time, He never healed or preached here!)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And there's a number of issues:

You want the Messiah to do Isaiah 2 (make the swords plowshares) but haven't been told about Joel 3 (make the plowshares swords, for Har-Meggido).

He shall rule from Jerusalem and return the Jewish people to the land and make peace. The ancients knew of Messiah Ben-David (King of Peace/War) and Messiah Ben-Joseph (Suffering Servant). Yeshua is both and His father's name? JOSEPH. And from David's house--direct descent.

The NT is Jewish scripture. "Christian" means "follower of Mashiach". You're saying "I reject the Messianic scriptures these Jews wrote, because all 12 teams of writers/scribes all contradict Tanakh". Did all 12 go insane, then?

Where is the counter scripture? (I lived in Jerusalem at the time, He never healed or preached here!)

there is only one messiah. messiah ben David.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thats interesting. I understand. Its nice to dialog with a learned person. Especially someone learned in the Judaic faith or Judaism particularly because its rare.

Anyway, everyone predominantly understand the difference in the Jewish Messiah vs the Christian Messiah or rather the concepts. What do you really see as a difference between the Islamic concept or in particular the Messiah as cited in the Qur'an vs the Jewish Messiah?

Islam believes the Jesus is the Messiah and that he will come again. He will be the Great Healer and Destroyer of Untruths, defeating the anti-Christ. You see how little relationship this has to the jewish messiah.

 

[firedragon]

Islam believes the Jesus is the Messiah and that he will come again. He will be the Great Healer and Destroyer of Untruths, defeating the anti-Christ. You see how little relationship this has to the jewish messiah.

Of course the Islamic idea of a Messiah is different from the Jewish understanding.

You see mate, I asked specifically "What do you really see as a difference between the Islamic concept or in particular the Messiah as cited in the Qur'an vs the Jewish Messiah?".

 

[BilliardsBall]

there is only one messiah. messiah ben David.

I read Isaiah 53 today and saw it as about Israel, not Jesus. Here are some verses:

Surely Israel has borne Israel’s griefs
And carried Israel’s sorrows;

Yet we esteemed Israel stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.

But Israel was wounded for Israel’s transgressions,
He was bruised for Israel’s iniquities;

The chastisement for Israel’s peace was upon Israel,
And by Israel’s stripes Israel is healed.

All Israel like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Israel the iniquity of all of us in Israel.


Do you see any issues?

 

[MonkeyFire]

Just remember Christ does not cater to you. If you want to be happy and safe it's on you. Religion is the most beautiful thing, I think you just cant tolerate nature well enough, which is true about disbelief and skepticism?