How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you again

This is my bias. I can only speak from Catholic vs. Buddhist perspective.

Compassion is defined by action not the other way around. (I can only enjoy the height of swinging if I push myself on the swing to fly back and forth. If I just sat still, I would not feel that height of enjoyment. I need action.)

A Catholic's compassion is embedded in the sacraments of Christ. So, their compassion may involve spreading their faith. It may involve inviting people to the Church. Catholic compassion if people are interested may be talking about their relationship with the Eucharist. If one understands Catholicism, they may even talk about Eucharistic adoration. Their expression is different because they want people to come to Christ. It's an inner need for people to be with them in christ to be one body, one Church.

Buddhism is not like that. The Buddha didn't teach evangelism but instruction. He taught not to talk to those who don't understand and he taught that practice brings out compassion which is universal (Buddhist definition) that everyone would understand. No one needs to share in this compassion to experience it from a devoted Buddhist. It's a humbleness that even on this thread, cultural Buddhist probably won't participate in because The Buddha taught not to debate and have harsh words of other people's religions.

Catholic compassion is defined by the grace of god through christ.

Buddhist compassion is defined by the liberation of the mind through mental training.

Yes, both have positive results. You still have letters of compassion. I just don't understand why you need the letters to relate to each other to share in the compassion without needing to integrate in any one else's but your own.

Spoken as one who has truly lived within the Catholic traditions and is immersed in Buddhism. Given you no longer believe in God it makes perfect sense for you to be practising Buddhism rather than Catholicism or any other faith in the Abrahamic traditions.

Its difficult for me as an outsider to appreciate the distinctiveness of a Catholics or Buddhists compassion, but that's my limited comprehension.

Do Buddhists have much to say about Faith adherents in other religions? Obviously Baha'is do, and I know you struggle with that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I see it the other way around. The compassion is the cause of the action. Because actions vary, it is safe to conclude that the concept of compassion varies too, unless you just give the general meaning.

A good example is an alcoholic in his last few years at a retirement home, or dying. Some people would think that it is compassionate to allow him a good shot of whiskey before bedtime, as then he wouldn't have to go through the delirium tremors involved with withdrawal, which, at that point would be far worse on him than the alcohol. Other people, and hospitals would refuse to do that. So with hard topics like euthanasia, death with dignity, methadone treatment for heroin addiction, the idea of compassion varies widely.

On a personal note, my hard and fast vegetarianism is a result of my compassion for animals. Others limit that type of compassion to humans alone, and can eat the flesh of another creature to their heart's content with no sign of remorse.

In Baha'i versus some others, the treatment of homosexuality reflects differing views on compassion.

The above are all good examples so thank you.

Here's an entirely different example where I believe that being too kind , helpful, and complaint could make someone worse, not better.

I had a patient recently who wasn't too happy with me. Her daughter has a diagnosis of attention hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and is on a psycho stimulant drug that helps her concentrate. However this drug is popular amongst the local drug addicts and it turns out that the mother was selling these drugs and also using them for her own addictions. This was known to me as a police statement outlining charges were provided to my medical practice. There was an alert on file not provide any more of these medications to the mother.

However she attended requesting a further prescription. When confronted with the police letter she cried and said it was all a mistake and the police had got it wrong. She had been set up. I explained that the medication could be provided to her daughter by the pharmacy delivering to the school who would provide her daughter the medication so she could concentrate. She told me the pharmacy and school was unreliable and could not be trusted to provide her daughter with the pills. Only she could do this.

I politely but firmly declined her request outlining what was and wasn't going to happen.

She contacted the practice manger today and complaining she felt judged by me and I had not understood her circumstances.

O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 158-160

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you have a source for that?

More Than Likely this - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 167-170

"...How often the Prophets of God and His supreme Manifestations in Their prayers confess Their sins and faults! This is only to teach other men, to encourage and incite them to humility and meekness, and to induce them to confess their sins and faults. For these Holy Souls are pure from every sin and sanctified from faults. In the Gospel it is said that a man came to Christ and called Him “Good Master.” Christ answered, “Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God.” 3 This did not mean—God forbid!—that Christ was a sinner; but the intention was to teach submission, humility, meekness and modesty to the man to whom He spoke. These Holy Beings are lights, and light does not unite itself with darkness. They are life, and life and death are not confounded. They are for guidance, and guidance and error cannot be together. They are the essence of obedience, and obedience cannot exist with rebellion.
To conclude, the addresses in the form of reproach which are in the Holy Books, though apparently directed to the Prophets—that is to say, to the Manifestations of God—in reality are intended for the people. This will become evident and clear to you when you have diligently examined the Holy Books."

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Wow. Wrath? I must be one horrible communicator if you see my words are full of wrath.But then I'm just a lowly non-Baha'i'. What could one expect besides wrath?

That is right. I was considering assigning more universally malevolent qualities to you,


Sorry, its my bad humour. Please don't report me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I follow the Vedas and the Upanishads. They are shruti. But this is incredibly different than what you said. What you said is by not following the manifestations, we're blind. You said, "I'm right and you''e wrong." This says by neglecting the Reality of the inner core of our Being, the Self God within the lotus of the heart, we are unable to see clearly. Two totally different concepts, other than the use of the word 'blind'. I see no comparison at all.

Even then it isn't really clear, because normally any translation of the original Sanskrit gets distorted. I'm a Hindu amd often admit I wouldn't get the true meaning unless I was fluent in Sanskrit, let alone somebody reading an English translation.

To illustrate my point, here are two more translations of that same verse.

1) Demonic verily are the worlds which are enveloped in blinding darkness. And to them go, after death, those who harm their inner selves.

2) Verily, those worlds of the asuras are enveloped in blind darkness; and thereto they all
repair after death who are slayers of Atman.

The metaphor however is a universal one, and I'm sure we would find it in many sacred texts with multiple meanings.

The Bab and His followers were a test for the Persian people. The Babi's and later Baha'is were reformers and progressive. The Mulla's and religious leaders denounced the Baha'is calling us apostates, enemies of Islam. And why not? We had dared to follow One who came after Muhammad when Muhammad had clearly stated He was the seal of the Prophets. We deserved to be tortured and butchered in the most cruel and horrific ways.

So it really was a time of light and darkness, and yes, spiritual blindness contrasting with those who had eyes to see what was true and just. Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the Baha'i claims there can be no justification for the rule of the mob and the barbaric behaviour that results.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Perhaps I can help, if you will tell me what made you think that Bahai sees differences as negative.

It's a long post-story. It was said thousands of posts ago that differences causes division and division causes wars. I asked how differences and division relate, and did not get an answer. The differences question was ignored to recently.

Bahaullah says to take out differences in order to unify or bring unity to make world peace via following the teachings of the revealed prophets that lead to god.

Throughout this whole thread, I've been asked "why do you keep looking at what is different rather than what we have in common?"

So, there is a Bahai view on here that differences somehow is negative and we should look at what everyone has in common.

The problem with that is differences and diversity are the same so if they don't talk about differences with people, then how do they define and accept diversity.

If Bahaullah takes away differences then how can he accept diversity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good points about geography, but they weren't universal in my view. Exclusive, in my view.

In which way do you think they were exclusive?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Wow. Wrath? I must be one horrible communicator if you see my words are full of wrath.But then I'm just a lowly non-Baha'i'. What could one expect besides wrath?

By not getting anywhere I meant slow progress. Others, well, it seems like it's just the same thing reiterated many times. So learning is individual.

You keep saying you would like to know more about Hinduism, but than nobody asks anything about Hinduism, lol.

How do we explain the manifestations influence? Did you read my firs post on the subject almost 600 pages ago? (Do you see now why I see little progress?)

Lots of people have been totally able to produce stuff similar to the sacred writings, the sacred books. Gibran, Aurobindo, Tiruvalluvar, Tirumular, too many to count. Maybe you just are so fixated on the few of the 'manifestations' you haven't looked elsewhere.

Lots of people have been scorned, imprisoned. Nelson Mandela comes to mind. My point, as always, is that the so called manifestations are nowhere near as unique as you seem to thing they are. Wise men, arguable, amongst many wise men on this planet. The difference? ... none really, other than circumstance or good PR representatives.

Is this not just reiteration, LH? On both sides?

So what’s Hinduism’s view or your particular view on how or if God influences civilisation or don’t you think that God or the Supreme Reality has any dealings with us humans?

What is your view of what the relationship is between God and us, why we exist?

Whats Hinduism’s Belief in a creation story? Have we always existed.

No you are not that way. I was just reflecting my own insecurity at the thought of upsetting someone I consider a good person.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do Buddhists have much to say about Faith adherents in other religions? Obviously Baha'is do, and I know you struggle with that.

Yes, most definitely. His Holiness, the Dali Lama compares Christianity and Buddhism. It's early morning here, so I'll find the other ones I gave ya'll way back.

The Dalai Lama Reflects on buddhism and Christianity

He actually does a beautiful job of comparing and contrasting the two. Here is a contrast. There are many comparisons as well.

However, while certain Buddhist traditions may accept the notion of salvation, they view it more in terms of a person’s individual spiritual or mental state, a state of perfection of the mind, rather than in terms of an external environment. Buddhism does accept the notion of different pure lands of the buddhas, pure states that come into being as a result of the positive karmic potentials of the individual.​

The lecture and dialogue with the priest at the end compares Buddhism and Christianity in that they both have similar goals (which I have mentioned) and similar results (which I have mentioned). Their differences are in their practices, why they practice, and what is involved in their practice that makes their similar goals and results possible.

I see compassion as different because the foundation is different. When you have a different foundation, whatever comes from foundation will reflect it. Whatever comes from god, a foundation, would be a reflection of that foundation.

There is no god in Buddhism. The foundation is the mind. Our attachments to this life is a reflection of how the mind interprets the world.

So, someone who speaks compassion from god would use different tones, different languages, and different intent. Throughout this thread, there has always been a "but god says this through these X prophets." or "Bahaullah is a manifestation of god which means this."

If compassion is the same from different religions, then these would not make sense. However, because Bahai is distinct from Buddhism, their compassion is expressed and lived differently than how a Buddhist would express it and live it.

The results of compassion/action of love are similar. The foundation is not.

Origin defines or gives results not the other way around. Different origin, similar results on the surface. Lesser peace is fine with similar results.

No one has approached deeply about finding commonality in greater peace. If Bahai wants greater peace, how do they gain one with someone who does not believe in god when our foundations are supposed to be similar?

To be continued with more links...

 

[Vinayaka]

The above are all good examples so thank you.

Here's an entirely different example where I believe that being too kind , helpful, and complaint could make someone worse, not better.

I had a patient recently who wasn't too happy with me. Her daughter has a diagnosis of attention hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and is on a psycho stimulant drug that helps her concentrate. However this drug is popular amongst the local drug addicts and it turns out that the mother was selling these drugs and also using them for her own addictions. This was known to me as a police statement outlining charges were provided to my medical practice. There was an alert on file not provide any more of these medications to the mother.

However she attended requesting a further prescription. When confronted with the police letter she cried and said it was all a mistake and the police had got it wrong. She had been set up. I explained that the medication could be provided to her daughter by the pharmacy delivering to the school who would provide her daughter the medication so she could concentrate. She told me the pharmacy and school was unreliable and could not be trusted to provide her daughter with the pills. Only she could do this.

I politely but firmly declined her request outlining what was and wasn't going to happen.

She contacted the practice manger today and complaining she felt judged by me and I had not understood her circumstances.

I would have done what you did. Not good for the daughter, (to not have meds that help her) not good for the mother. Those are sad situations. We had kids at the school I taught where we administered their meds.

 

[Vinayaka]

Please don't report me.

Wrath always connotes the Abrahamic God to me, in the way the yellers portray him.

 

[Vinayaka]

The metaphor however is a universal one, and I'm sure we would find it in many sacred texts with multiple meanings.

Perhaps, but it's used in very different ways. Let's use the term ignorance rather than the metaphor. Christians say you're ignorant of the truth if you don't accept Jesus.
Baha'i' said you're ignorant of the truth if you don't accept the manifestations.
A young doctor might say to an older doctor that he's ignorant of a new drug' existence. (blind to the fact ....)
Hindus say ignorance (anava in Sanskrit) is one of the bondages Siva (or Vishnu, etc.) created so the soul would have to work in order to return to close association, or union. So it's like a covering of darkness so we can't see past our own egos.

There are lots of metaphors that can be used to mean very different things. I maintain that saying people are blind because they don't agree with your version of reality is insulting. But at least you did admit you could have chosen a better way to explain it, although I have yet to hear a better way.

 

[Vinayaka]

In which way do you think they were exclusive?

You don't know?

By saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." Obviously that excludes all the people who are wrong. Baha'i's, in reality, in my view are exclusive, because you say other faiths afren't up to Baha'i'.

 

[Vinayaka]

So what’s Hinduism’s view or your particular view on how or if God influences civilisation or don’t you think that God or the Supreme Reality has any dealings with us humans?

What is your view of what the relationship is between God and us, why we exist?

Whats Hinduism’s Belief in a creation story? Have we always existed.

No you are not that way. I was just reflecting my own insecurity at the thought of upsetting someone I consider a good person.

Thanks for asking.

In my view, God is the watcher of Himself. Everything is an extension of Himself. He isn't the puppet master. Everything is as it should be ... in a state of evolution, there is nothing wrong, it's all natural, souls are learning growing, evolving, and in that process they make mistakes. An analogy is watching your own child grow up, all through the stages of toilet training, teenage mistakes, until she/he is a capable independent mature adult, and your equal. Puppetry doesn't work, still there is some role modelling and guidance.

At the deepest level we are God. So at that level there is no relationship. Do you have a relationship with yourself. While you're (the soul) evolving to that deep level, God is father, mother, friend, brother, advisor, Guru, silent sage, and more.

There is no creation story, just lots of analogies ... sparks from a fire, raindrops from a cloud, waves on the ocean.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Its difficult for me as an outsider to appreciate the distinctiveness of a Catholics or Buddhists compassion, but that's my limited comprehension.

Try to replace distinctiveness with diversity and each person who is diverse having their own foundation.

Its like the sun shining through the stain glass window.

1. Bahai would see one sun (foundation) creates different colors

2. I dont see the sun as the foundation. I see the colors as foundations. Once the sun hits the colors, those colors are different. The colorw make the church beautiful not the sun. Without the colors, whats the purpose of the sun?

3. Bahai may see the foundation as all rays point the same direction so the foundations are the same

4. I see the light rays are the Results of the sun but each ray is still a reflection of their own color. Same direction, different color.

5. Bahai says they respect diversity. To other non-god religious, the diversity is in the foundations (the colors) not a product of the sun. To make matters difficult, some believe in more than one sun. Others say the sun is everything not a separate ball of gass.

Our focus of foundations are the colors. Your point of reference is the sun.

The rays of compassion are different because of the color not how the sun shines through the window. Take away the colors, the beauty is gone.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nutshell: Foundation of diversity starts at the colors not by the sun.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@adrian009 and guys I honestly didn't mean to write so much. Adrian here are some links and other things about religious diversity and rather than in unity in Buddhism.

The Dangers of Changing Religions

There are many different religions and cultures in the world and each has developed to suit its own people. Because of that, I always recommend that it’s best to keep the religion you were born into. In the West, most people are Christians, although there are also some Jews and some Muslims. For them, or for anyone, to change religions is not easy and sometimes it just creates confusion. His Holiness, the Dalai Lama talks about converts sticking to our own religions rather than converting. He has a reflective but criticizing view on religious diversity when it comes to conversions. Establishing Harmony within Religious Diversity.​

Religious diversity and religious harmony Few excerpts.

All religions are for the purpose of human happiness. They all teach ethics and compassion and stress harmony among people. Philosophically there are differences, and while recognizing those, we can still appreciate the similarities. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Spiritual leader of the Tibetan people. The Dalai Lamas are believed to be manifestations of Avalokiteshvara or Chenrezig, the Bodhisattva of Compassion and the patron saint of Tibet. Bodhisattvas are believed to be enlightened beings who have postponed their own nirvana and chosen to take rebirth in order to serve humanity. His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, describes himself as "a simple Buddhist monk." Dalai Lama once said that he believes the real religion is compassion.

We experience the compassion of others from infancy throughout our lives. Without the kindness and efforts of others, it would be impossible for us to sustain our lives alone.

....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

....

Bodhisattvas have compassion and empathy for sentiment beings. I wouldn't use "try to save them" as The Buddha says, but to use the empathy we have to help others help themselves. It's a showing of compassion and teaching the Dhamma.

Unlike the universal view, though, the philosophical differences are based on practices and those practices are extremely different (as colors of the stain glass window).

This is how we pray at the temple. This is how I pray now. Prayers aren't what "gives" compassion but they are compassion. So this prayer of compassion means totally different than this:

If you'd tell these two people that their compassion is the same/unified, you are literally telling them their foundations are the same. You are basically saying they have the same sun just different colors from the glass panes.

These two religions I know from experience the former and talked with the latter have a completely different aura in their approach, completely different biases, completely different cultures, and as a result defining what compassion actually means to each culture/religion.

These different displays of compassion are the compassion itself.

So there is Buddhist compassion. Christian compassion. Hindu compassion. etc...

If you accept the diversity, by default, you accept their differences. If you unify their differences, there is no more diversity. (If you define the colors by the sun, then you're saying diversity when you really mean unity. If you define diversity by the colors, regardless of the sun, you still respect the colors as they are without needing to define them by the sun behind it)

--

The reason I say the same/unify is when you have different colors of a window pane, when there is only One sun behind it. No matter how many colors you use, it all defines one sun. That, by definition is unification.

Other religions do not see it this way.

The problem in this thread is Bahai trying to back out of what they believe by rephrasing it to keep the peace. Own up and acknowledge your belief for what it is. Bahaullah says take away differences to bring unity-just say that. Making peace is also being honest with others not trying to find what you guys have in common.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

OKAY I'M DONE. YOU DON'T have to read and reply to it all.

Have an hour before heading back.

Adrian, just thought you'd find those links helpful.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

It's a long post-story. It was said thousands of posts ago that differences causes division and division causes wars....
So, there is a Bahai view on here that differences somehow is negative and we should look at what everyone has in common.

The problem with that is differences and diversity are the same so if they don't talk about differences with people, then how do they define and accept diversity.

If Bahaullah takes away differences then how can he accept diversity.

My guess is that this is a translation issue in one of two places. Persian and Arabic have a word, mokhtalef, which means either being different to one another (dieversity), or disputing with one another (conflict). English "differences" as the same two meanings: if we say "settle your differences" it refers to the things that cause disputes, but if we say the differences between the flowers make a bouquet, we mean what makes them unique, and not, what makes them argue with one another.

So far as I can see at a glance above, what you have been expressing here is identical to the Bahai teaching, which is "unity in diversity" and not "unity by being all the same."