How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

Naw. Im not that complicated as christians.

God-creator
Jesus-son
Holy spirit-god's love

God's Word (i.e. thou shall not kill)

OT-No one listened to God's Word (invisible/cant see people talk)

God decides to send a human "son".

He says jesus is his "final" Word.

"If you dont 'get me' my Message in the flesh, you wont get me for eternity."

Those who listen to god's message (aka his Word) will be saved. Those who do not, will not.

Its a play on words (no pun).

words-combination of letters made into sets with distinct meanings.

God's oral dications-Law

When no one listened to the verbal law he made the law represented by a person-jesus. Whatever jesus said was the Word "of god."

Thats what the trinity is. It explains the united relationship between god, son/Word/message, and the method of communicating that word after jesus' death.

I thought the concept is easy to understand. Right?

Hey, I think you've pretty much there.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Its more:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Word/Law/God's Oral Message that has existed without beginning. The Word was "with" god-it's His message and no one else's. Its emphazied that the two are so united they are one.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Thereby, god's law/oral dications i.e. given to moses was ignored in the OT, so he made his law flesh. A person who was the law thereby representing it. They are inserperable.

Its emphasied in hebrews (got to find the verse. I gave away my bibles) it says jesus is the visible "image" (not Is) of an invisible god.

He is only a representation of god's law and god's law and god are inseperable.

Are you having an epiphany or what.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you having an epiphany or what.

I had a last minute thought. They'd hate me if I were christian. I pick apart concepts that supposed to stay a mystery. Cant understand mysteries kind of like loving casper. Shrugs. I love religion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hey, I think you've pretty much there.

Im not trinitarian. Probably a big reason, though bahai baffles me since you seem to be in the middle of things. Pun and no pun intended.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I had a last minute thought. They'd hate me if I were christian. I pick apart concepts that supposed to stay a mystery. Cant understand mysteries kind of like loving casper. Shrugs. I love religion.

You would have a tougher time with the evangelical Christians belief me.

'Watch out for the devil'.

'Your possessed'.

'You need to follow the bible'

'You will stray'.

Those were the kind of comments I experienced as I grappled with what Christ really taught. It was rather discouraging to put it mildly.

That was 30 years ago. Now as a Baha'i and doctor, I come from a position of strength and feel I know the bible better than the average Christian.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Im not trinitarian. Probably a big reason, though bahai baffles me since you seem to be in the middle of things. Pun and no pun intended.

Ha ha.

The Trinity is a church, not Baha'i doctrine. The Nicene Creed contradicts the bible and confused Christianity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You would have a tougher time with the evangelical Christians belief me.

'Watch out for the devil'.

'Your possessed'.

'You need to follow the bible'

'You will stray'.

Those were the kind of comments I experienced as I grappled with what Christ really taught. It was rather discouraging to put it mildly.

That was 30 years ago. Now as a Baha'i and doctor, I come from a position of strength and feel I know the bible better than the average Christian.

I honestly wouldnt be surprised. Dont mention bahaullah though. That would cut the conversation short.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That sounds like the trinity. @adrian009 said (remember) thats a false doctrine. I cant tell the difference.

You had a good chat to Adrian, I will not add further at this time but to add the picture. We can put any Great Being name on the Mirror;

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ha ha.

The Trinity is a church, not Baha'i doctrine. The Nicene Creed contradicts the bible and confused Christianity.

The Church put The Bible together. Here we go: How are the bible books put together. Without The Church, you'd have a lot of written "spiritual" books more than 66 books I bet.

"It was actually not until 367 AD that the church father Athanasius first provided the complete listing of the 66 books belonging to the canon."

Why do christians, muslims, and bahai look to the bible as if it were from anyone other than The Church?

Thre link is one-sided but good info nonetheless.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Church put The Bible together. Here we go: How are the bible books put together. Without The Church, you'd have a lot of written "spiritual" books more than 66 books I bet.

"It was actually not until 367 AD that the church father Athanasius first provided the complete listing of the 66 books belonging to the canon."

Why do christians, muslims, and bahai look to the bible as if it were from anyone other than The Church?

Thre link is one-sided but good info nonetheless.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 is but one passage, this quoted from the New Living Translation as it is easier english; (Worth reading this book).

"...All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

Baha'u'llah has given you the answer to your question, I hope you do read the answer.

"...How far from the grace of the All-Bountiful and from His loving providence and tender mercies it is to single out a soul from amongst all men for the guidance of His creatures, and, on one hand, to withhold from Him the full measure of His divine testimony, and, on the other, inflict severe retribution on His people for having turned away from His chosen One! Nay, the manifold bounties of the Lord of all beings have, at all times, through the Manifestations of His Divine Essence, encompassed the earth and all that dwell therein. Not for a moment hath His grace been withheld, nor have the showers of His loving-kindness ceased to rain upon mankind."

The Church were custodians of the recorded Word. As men they were warned not to Add to or Take away from what they had been given. It was a responsibility to give the future the Word of God to each generation unaltered by human input, or unaltered by taking away aspects of that Word.

In that process there should have been a Church called Christains having a unity in diversity of their thought, not division.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I honestly dont have a negative look at other people's religions; so, its hard for me to see whats ethically wrong with The Church changing, adding, and subtracting its own books to reflect what they feel is god breathed. Once we see it outside the bible, we'd know god speaks directly through the heart. Nothing written is the same as god's voice. Nothing. (@adrian009 yeah, I know. Haha) That said...

"...All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

You cant use the bible to prove itself true. The Church put together the Full christian bible all 66 books.

Baha'u'llah has given you the answer to your question

This is bahai answer not christian.

You have to speak from christian view if your belief is aligned with scripture. If not, its not christian.

My point to adrian is The Church put the bible together so I see no issues having the trinity. Thats like getting mad at Sara's mother for adding more pictures to the photo album when the album was put together by her mother. She has the right. No one else.

Sara being imaginary.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You had a good chat to Adrian, I will not add further at this time but to add the picture. We can put any Great Being name on the Mirror;

View attachment 20256

Regards Tony

That is why I say bahai ane christianity dont mix. @adrian009 gave me a good example too. I cant remember my points though. If we had a conversation, I can remember it better. Christianity says those arent "mirrors" but are actually god (One god). Only one without reflection.

Other than that, its all bahai views. Are there other views that can strengthen the conversation?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I honestly dont have a negative look at other people's religions; so, its hard for me to see whats ethically wrong with The Church changing, adding, and subtracting its own books to reflect what they feel is god breathed. Once we see it outside the bible, we'd know god speaks directly through the heart. Nothing written is the same as god's voice

If we look at the Bible for guidance on this matter, it shows us we can only see God in His unaltered Laws until the day His Word is fulfilled;

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The Law carried over from the Torah and these passages are part of that Law;

Deuteronomy 4:2"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you"

Deuteronomy 12:3"Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

That is clear we are not to change what is written and it goes further, it tells us we will not know until the Time of the End in Daniel 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." It is in Revelation where we can see the seals are Opened.

Then we have 2 Peter 1:20 telling the Church not to put any meaning to Prophecy; "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." and then in Revelation it is confirmed;

Revelation 22:18 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19 - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

So the Church has authority to preserve and present as much of the unaltered Word as they could, so when the promise of Christ was fulfilled each person could look at the preserved Word and come to their own conclusion not influenced by set doctrine.

The Bible made it through all of this, Baha'u'llah has confirmed this fact. Followers of that Word did not make it through to this age, without adding to the Meaning of the Bible, meaning they had no authority to set as Doctrine.

You cant use the bible to prove itself true. The Church put together the Full christian bible all 66 books.

I would offer the Bible does and has prove itself True. It is Gods Guide in Law, Wisdom and of Prophecy. It has Guided and the Prophecy has been fulfilled.

This is bahai answer not christian.

You have to speak from christian view if your belief is aligned with scripture. If not, its not christian.

My point to adrian is The Church put the bible together so I see no issues having the trinity. Thats like getting mad at Sara's mother for adding more pictures to the photo album when the album was put together by her mother. She has the right. No one else.

Sara being imaginary.

I am a follower of Christ, so by what authority are we to judge who is and who is not a Christian? I would only gauge my own belief in Jesus the Christ against this advice;

Romans 12:9-21 Marks of the True Christian "9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

That is why I say bahai ane christianity dont mix. @adrian009 gave me a good example too. I cant remember my points though. If we had a conversation, I can remember it better. Christianity says those arent "mirrors" but are actually god (One god). Only one without reflection.

Other than that, its all bahai views. Are there other views that can strengthen the conversation?

I find the Words of Baha'u'llah and Christ as the Words of One Book, the Book of our One God. As are the Testimonies of all the Great Beings.

There is no stronger View to present, but to say many are now looking for this foundation.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christianity says those arent "mirrors" but are actually god (One god). Only one without reflection.

The Bible answers that and I will use Aramaic Bible in Plain English for this quote. I use it, as now Baha'u'llah has given a Message, we can see more in these passages;

John 1:18 "No man has seen God at any time; The Only Begotten God Who is in the bosom of The Father, he has declared him.”

Beget is "to cause; produce as an effect". It is God that Begets, a God no man has Seen, and the Begotten in this passage I see is Christ. It is the Christ who is in the bosom of the Father, the Father is not God in this passage.

John 6:46“No man has seen The Father, except he who is from God; he himself sees The Father.” In this passage the Father is not God, in this passage it is the Christ who has come from God and sees the Father, the Father is Baha'u'llah.

John 5:37"And The Father who has sent me, he testifies of me. You have never heard his voice and you have not seen his appearance," It is Baha'u'llah the Father that sent Christ the Son, in all this God is still unknowable to us. We can only see God through the Great Beings.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I find the Words of Baha'u'llah and Christ as the Words of One Book, the Book of our One God. As are the Testimonies of all the Great Beings.

I cant say you are not christian. I can say christianity does not teach anything about bahaullah (again). I dont know what christianity you believe. Ive read the bible and practiced three denominations and second hand JW and visited countless churches and have yet to hear bahaullah either in concept, spirit, literally, or firgurally. To me, what you believe is not what jesus taught. That is my experience and Opinion Not stated as fact.

If we look at the Bible for guidance on this matter, it shows us we can only see God in His unaltered Laws until the day His Word is fulfilled;

Bible equals apostles. Apostles equsls church. Church said whats inspired. You all believe what the church put together. If you want to believe in the god of the bible, quote the torah not jesus' apostles. (What you quote is from the apostles. Jesus wrote nothing.)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Bible answers that and I will use Aramaic Bible in Plain English for this quote. I use it, as now Baha'u'llah has given a Message, we can see more in these passages;

John 1:18 "No man has seen God at any time; The Only Begotten God Who is in the bosom of The Father, he has declared him.”

Beget is "to cause; produce as an effect". It is God that Begets, a God no man has Seen, and the Begotten in this passage I see is Christ. It is the Christ who is in the bosom of the Father, the Father is not God in this passage.

John 6:46“No man has seen The Father, except he who is from God; he himself sees The Father.” In this passage the Father is not God, in this passage it is the Christ who has come from God and sees the Father, the Father is Baha'u'llah.

John 5:37"And The Father who has sent me, he testifies of me. You have never heard his voice and you have not seen his appearance," It is Baha'u'llah the Father that sent Christ the Son, in all this God is still unknowable to us. We can only see God through the Great Beings.

Regards Tony

Talking to the wrong person. Im not a trinitarian.

But it does make sense. The scripture you quoted is interpreted as jesus with god's name. When you read god, they view it as jesus. They both are not separated.

I can explain how with scripture if you like. Read with interest to understand not to rebute.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I cant say you are not christian. I can say christianity does not teach anything about bahaullah (again). I dont know what christianity you believe. Ive read the bible and practiced three denominations and second hand JW ans visites countless churches and have yet to hear bahaullah either in concept, spirit, literally, or firgurally. To me, what you believe is not what jesus taught. That is my experience and Opinion Not stated as fact.

Bibld equals apostles. Apostlss equsls church. Church said whats inspired. You all believe what the church put together. If you want to believe in the god of the bible, quote the torah not jesus' apostles. (What you quote is from the apostles. Jesus wrote nothing.)

So using what you said and go back a couple of Revelations, we can say that Judaism taught nothing of Jesus and then also say we do not know what part of the Torah a Christian would believe. etc...

The same allegations go back through time.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Talking to the wrong person. Im not a trinitarian.

A Baha'i is also not a follower of the Trinity. So maybe you are the right person to talk to.

I am away for quite some time now, busy day.

Regards Tony

 

[Buddha Dharma]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg if Baha'is accept both Christianity and Islam, and both the Bible and the Koran- that could be problematic. Because Muslims don't believe John 1 like Christians do. Even in calling Jesus a begotten god. This violates the pure monotheism of Islam, which the Koran expounds in it's view on Jesus- that the word of Allah created him. Not that Jesus himself is Allah's word.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Take your time. I study in thirty minute intervals for my exams giving this ADDish thing.

So using what you said and go back a couple of Revelations, we can say that Judaism taught nothing of Jesus and then also say we do not know what part of the Torah

Yes. Jesus words were all from The Church via the apostles. If you want to know what god taught without The Church reference The Torah.