How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

Tarred? I'm quite sure you meant "painted", or at least I hope so. And are you not striving for unity and oneness? That alone would warrant "lumping all Baha'is together".

Unity in diversity is the phrase. If you have a concern with what I say then speak to me. If you have a concern about what another Baha'i says talk to them. If you have a concern with what the Baha'i position then talk to a Baha'i. There are at least four that I know of who have contributed to this thread. They all seem like knowledgeable Baha'is and decent people as far as I can see.

Some very good advise. Are Baha'is willing to take it? I don't think the Hindus and Buddhists that have been speaking to you don't misunderstand what your saying about Krishna and Buddha, they disagree. And when an adherent gets what you're saying, but tries to inform you that you're misrepresenting or misinterpreting their faiths, you would be wise to listen.

And so far as giving offense? You do that when you ignore entire cultures and faiths that don't live up to your criteria. For a group trying to vie for world unity and peace, you're not off to a great start.

I can not say that I have had any in depth conversation with any Buddhists or Hindus on RF. I have with a few Christians, Jews and atheists. I have had an in depth conversation with Carlita on other threads.

I agree that some Hindus and Buddhists disagree with the Baha'i perception of their Faith. We're Baha'is, not Buddhists or Hindus.

Do we misrepresent these religions? If we claimed to represent these religions as Buddhists and Hindus then that would be true. However we are clear that we are Baha'is and have an understanding about Buddhism and Hinduism that differs from many adherents. That's an entirely different matter.

One view Baha'is have is that Buddhists and Hindus are manifestations of God. The problem is that many Hindus believe in many Gods, and many Buddhists belief in no God. That's a conversation for Baha'is to have with Buddhists and Hindus. Its an obvious problem for anyone investigating the Baha'i Faith too. Clearly the Baha'i have an explanation about why those differences exist. I recognise that explanation is not going to satisfy everybody and it will annoy some.

You have raised a question about ignoring entire cultures and faiths that don't live up to our criteria. What groups are they? It certainly isn't the pagans or atheists. Do you feel Baha'i reach for the ignore function as soon as they see the word pagan? Perhaps we run for the hills. I doubt if many would and I'm sure most would be happy to talk with you as I am.

Only, you do shun some. You say you wish to consort with people of all faiths, but this is a disingenuous claim when we can clearly see this not being the case with Pagan religions. Proving quite plainly that words are wind.

Honestly, do you feel that the Baha'is shun you because you are a Pagan? Some of us, myself included don't know very much about your beliefs. I don't know how much you know of the Baha'i faith and it may totally disinterest you. That doesn't mean we can't have a reasonable and civilised conversation as I hope we are doing now.

 

[Tabu]

Thanks for your comments. We can agree on Krishna and the Bhagavad-Gita so we are not doing too bad are we friend?

As to Him being Kalki Avatar these are the Words of Baha'u'llah Himself

"The time fore-ordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 12-13.

In God Passes By the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith it says clearly that..

“To Him the Bhagavad-Gita of the Hindus had referred as the "Most Great Spirit," the "Tenth Avatar," the "Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna.”

Excerpt From: Effendi, Shoghi. “God Passes By.”

This link goes into the time calculation, place and even city where Kalki is to appear.

Bhartiya Baha'i: HINDUISM AND THE BAHÁ’I FAITH

We are going Great , but other than their names I don't know where we have agreed on Krishna and Bhagwad Gita , but that's ok , we share a similar rendezvous with many Hindu schools of thought.
We (BKs) believe in God being One , and the Source of knowledge , the Shining Sun when He dawns changes the night of ignorance and devotion to The day of knowledge .
This day we call as The Confluence Age ,( i.e the confluence between the Iron age and The Golden Age ) , is synonymous to The Day of Judgement mentioned in the Abrahamic religions.
This day doesn't set in with the coming of any great saint , religious leader or any pure soul , but with the coming of God Himself.
(though all these great souls have their relative significances and prevent humanity from a total moral collapse).
I agree with most of the teachings of Bahai faith presented to me so far , and see this faith as that fresh new branch from which have sprung beautiful green leaves and fragrant and radiant flowers . Most of you here are energetic , enthusiastic, reasonable and humble in your approach.
In our belief , God doesn't pass by , but comes once in a cycle , which according to us is 5000 years , when everything is in total degradation . Establishment of the new world through Brahma , and destruction of the old world through Shankar , both are accomplished by The Supreme Father Shiv in this Confluence age.
And humanity is united only in Heaven ( Golden and Silver ages combined) , this corresponds to the trunk of the tree , and in all the other ages there would be branching and sub branching .

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I'm listening.

I'll believe that the next time a Buddhist or a Hindu attempts to show you the error in baha'i interpretation of their scripts.

Unity in diversity is the phrase.

Is it just a phrase, or is that your groups goal? The world needs less double-speak, particularly from the Abrahamic groups.

I agree that some Hindus and Buddhists disagree with the Baha'i perception of their Faith. We're Baha'is, not Buddhists or Hindus.

Do we misrepresent these religions? If we claimed to represent these religions as Buddhists and Hindus then that would be true.

That is not the only qualifier. When a baha'i tells a Hindu - despite studious explanation to the contrary - the "actual nature" of Krishna, you are misrepresenting Hinduism. The same with the teachings of the Buddha. Your "perception" of their faiths - and others - is misrepresentation and misinterpretation through the continued misinformation that you perpetuate.

One view Baha'is have is that Buddhists and Hindus are manifestations of God. The problem is that many Hindus believe in many Gods, and many Buddhists belief in no God.

And you don't see the problem there? You've been told that your views are contradictory to the very nature of Krishna and the Buddha themselves. I don't often use this, but what you're doing is tantamount to cultural appropriation. You don't understand the figures that you're taking and using for your prophets, you just do so for reasons that are really unclear. The problem is not Buddhist and Hindu beliefs, the problem is baha'i use of Buddha and Krishna as prophets just because "they were wise."

You have raised a question about ignoring entire cultures and faiths that don't live up to our criteria. What groups are they? It certainly isn't the pagans or atheists.

Well that's a blatant lie. Especially when we have multiple threads of you baha'inians saying that Paganism "isn't actually a religion" and discounting our deeply and sacredly held beliefs as comic book characters. Nobody likes being marginalized, adrian, and when you go on about "world peace" but leave out certain groups - yes, we Pagans - that gives the impression that we are not part of your world, and could certainly imply darker things that that. You baha'is go on about peace and brotherhood, but you're not making any friends outside your circle.

Some of us, myself included don't know very much about your beliefs.

Then perhaps you should get off the spiritual high horse and learn about them, rather than discredit them. Especially when there's such pressure to read and understand bahai beliefs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We are going Great , but other than their names I don't know where we have agreed on Krishna and Bhagwad Gita , but that's ok , we share a similar rendezvous with many Hindu schools of thought.
We (BKs) believe in God being One , and the Source of knowledge , the Shining Sun when He dawns changes the night of ignorance and devotion to The day of knowledge .
This day we call as The Confluence Age ,( i.e the confluence between the Iron age and The Golden Age ) , is synonymous to The Day of Judgement mentioned in the Abrahamic religions.
This day doesn't set in with the coming of any great saint , religious leader or any pure soul , but with the coming of God Himself.
(though all these great souls have their relative significances and prevent humanity from a total moral collapse).
I agree with most of the teachings of Bahai faith presented to me so far , and see this faith as that fresh new branch from which have sprung beautiful green leaves and fragrant and radiant flowers . Most of you here are energetic , enthusiastic, reasonable and humble in your approach.
In our belief , God doesn't pass by , but comes once in a cycle , which according to us is 5000 years , when everything is in total degradation . Establishment of the new world through Brahma , and destruction of the old world through Shankar , both are accomplished by The Supreme Father Shiv in this Confluence age.
And humanity is united only in Heaven ( Golden and Silver ages combined) , this corresponds to the trunk of the tree , and in all the other ages there would be branching and sub branching .

Your post is so beautiful and spiritual and I already feel that we are united in many ways. Any literature or scripture you can point me to I'm most accepting to read it? Also once every cycle is how we understand it too. And we too believe that this Day is the Coming of God. Can you elaborate on that more as well as show me some scripture saying that? Thank you very much for your kind words. Peace to you always.

 

[Windwalker]

Seriously Loverofhumanity, you'd do well to humbly ask others you assume don't know to help you understand, rather than assume you have the answers from your own limited group understanding. The latter is your error. Start looking with your own eyes, rather than looking to others of your limited group to tell you truth. You'll find those you think don't know, know more than you and the group you look to for your answers.

 

[Tabu]

Your post is so beautiful and spiritual and I already feel that we are united in many ways. Any literature or scripture you can point me to I'm most accepting to read it? Also once every cycle is how we understand it too. And we too believe that this Day is the Coming of God. Can you elaborate on that more as well as show me some scripture saying that? Thank you very much for your kind words. Peace to you always.

Thanks ,
At this moment I suggest you some videos by our wonderful sister Shivani

And for the details about how the time cycle moves and transforms and for the knowledge of what happens at the different stages in the time cycle and when sorrow and devotion enter this cycle, you can look up into the pictures I have posted in my thread in DIR.
BrahmaKumari : A Picture is worth a Thousand Words
Any furthers questions are welcome.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Seriously Loverofhumanity, you'd do well to humbly ask others you assume don't know to help you understand, rather than assume you have the answers from your own limited group understanding. The latter is your error. Start looking with your own eyes, rather than looking to others of your limited group to tell you truth. You'll find those you think don't know, know more than you and the group you look to for your answers.

Yes you are right. I have much to learn and hopefully one day I can become more knowledgeable than you. Please pray that I receive more humility and wisdom as I am in much need of these things.

How many times I see the knowledge of the people here and feel more than disappointed with my ignorance. But that hopefully keeps me trying to learn from you all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thanks ,
At this moment I suggest you some videos by our wonderful sister Shivani

And for the details about how the time cycle moves and transforms and for the knowledge of what happens at the different stages in the time cycle and when sorrow and devotion enter this cycle, you can look up into the pictures I have posted in my thread in DIR.
BrahmaKumari : A Picture is worth a Thousand Words
Any furthers questions are welcome.

Many thanks Tabu. I watched the entire uplifting peaceful and very inspiring and empowering video and it taught me some very important things and I'm very grateful for your sharing this with me.

I can control myself but I can't control those things or others around me. Beautiful.

Is this meditation being taught in schools because it should be?

I like this quote from your website a lot.

"Meditation doesn’t need chanting or mantras, incense or candles, and you don’t have to be sitting cross-legged on the floor in a darkened room."

Many thanks

 

[Dawnofhope]

Is it just a phrase, or is that your groups goal? The world needs less double-speak, particularly from the Abrahamic groups.

It just means accepting our differences and getting along anyhow. I wouldn't read anymore into it than that.

That is not the only qualifier. When a baha'i tells a Hindu - despite studious explanation to the contrary - the "actual nature" of Krishna, you are misrepresenting Hinduism. The same with the teachings of the Buddha. Your "perception" of their faiths - and others - is misrepresentation and misinterpretation through the continued misinformation that you perpetuate.

Ok that's how you see it. I personally know little about Hinduism and Buddhism. I've told you I haven't had any in depth conversations with Buddhists or Hindus on this site. I'm not sure where this is coming from.

And you don't see the problem there? You've been told that your views are contradictory to the very nature of Krishna and the Buddha themselves. I don't often use this, but what you're doing is tantamount to cultural appropriation. You don't understand the figures that you're taking and using for your prophets, you just do so for reasons that are really unclear. The problem is not Buddhist and Hindu beliefs, the problem is baha'i use of Buddha and Krishna as prophets just because "they were wise."

So the problem is that the Baha'i belief doesn't accord with Hindu or Buddhist belief? You could say that about any two religions.

Nobody likes being marginalized, adrian, and when you go on about "world peace" but leave out certain groups - yes, we Pagans - that gives the impression that we are not part of your world, and could certainly imply darker things that that.

So the Baha'is are excluding pagans because you don't believe in one of our recognised Manifestation of Gods? Really! What I'm reading between the lines is a deep distrust and unhappiness about Abrahamic religions. I get that, but the Baha'is are not excluding anyone

You baha'is go on about peace and brotherhood, but you're not making any friends outside your circle.

learn about them, rather than discredit them. Especially when there's such pressure to read and understand bahai beliefs.

You sound angry and unhappy. Who's putting pressure on you to read and understand Baha'i beliefs? How do you know I'm not making efforts to learn about paganism? I've asked questions from pagans about their beliefs on RF including when you started an OP recently. I feel like you're putting pressure on me.

 

[oldbadger]

Unity in diversity is the phrase

Hi 009.....
Imo there's a big big problem with the Bahai version of Unity in Diversity.
Orwellian Doublethink comes to mind.
In a Bahai World there would not be Unity in Diversity, because only Bahais would have the vote, or be able to hold office. That is not Unity....

I can not say that I have had any in depth conversation with any Buddhists or Hindus on RF. I have with a few Christians, Jews and atheists. I have had an in depth conversation with Carlita on other threads.

There you are.... you've left out the StuddHill Full Moon Frolickers again.... we're all mortified!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi 009.....
Imo there's a big big problem with the Bahai version of Unity in Diversity.
Orwellian Doublethink comes to mind.
In a Bahai World there would not be Unity in Diversity, because only Bahais would have the vote, or be able to hold office. That is not Unity....

Its a good question. The acceptance of the Baha'i world order will be voluntarily accepted. There are many aspects of todays world such as democracy, the need for international government, equality of men and women etc that are increasing accepted as universal principles for everyone. In the future I believe there will be the same clarity as to who Baha'u'llah is and the need for His system of governance. If Baha'u'llah is who He says He is, it will happen. If not then we will fade away. There certainly won't be any attempt to forcefully seize the reigns of power.

There you are.... you've left out the StuddHill Full Moon Frolickers again.... we're all mortified!

You guys are just not feeling the Baha'i love!!!

Here's something I found from the Baha'i writings that my pagan brothers can either accept or decline as a peace offering...

In regards to ancient religions:

"just as the rays of the natural sun have an influence which penetrates into the darkest and shadiest corners of the world, giving warmth and life even to creatures that have never seen the sun itself, so also, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit through the Manifestation of God influences the lives of all, and inspires receptive minds even in places and among peoples where the name of the Prophet is quite unknown."

(Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 4)

See! were not such horrible people after all

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It just means accepting our differences and getting along anyhow. I wouldn't read anymore into it than that.

So it's a meaningless platitude--got it.

Ok that's how you see it.

Evidently I'm not the only one, when you've got members of that faith diligently attempting to correct your misuse of their figures.

So the problem is that the Baha'i belief doesn't accord with Hindu or Buddhist belief? You could say that about any two religions.

The difference being that with most "any two religions," one doesn't claim incorrect things about the other. You certainly don't see Hindus claiming, for instance, that Jesus is an incarnation of Krishna.

the Baha'is are not excluding anyone

Yes, you are. You can try to psychoanalyze it all you want, pin the blame on me as "angry and unhappy", but the fact of the matter is that your group excludes people. When you say "this isn't actually a religion because..." you are excluding. And you can't very well attain world peace peacefully when you exclude people.

I've asked questions from pagans about their beliefs on RF including when you started an OP recently.

And your question was answered. So let me ask you, adrian; why are various forms of Paganism "not religions"? And what, exactly, does your quote of Dr. J.E. Esslemont mean?

 

[oldbadger]

............ ....................... If Baha'u'llah is who He says He is, it will happen. If not then we will fade away. .....................

Fair enough...
think Queen Victoria said something along those lines.

You guys are just not feeling the Baha'i love!!!

Ah..... but the sight of Mrs Winstanley skipping about in the moonlight..... melts the heart so......

Here's something I found from the Baha'i writings that my pagan brothers can either accept or decline as a peace offering...
"............................................ the outpouring of the Holy Spirit through the Manifestation of God influences the lives of all, and inspires receptive minds even in places and among peoples where the name of the Prophet is quite unknown."

(Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 4)

Ah... yes.... but old Khayyam might have it right....:_

''How sweet is mortal Sovranty!'' ---- think some:
Others ------- ''How blest the Paradise to come!''
Ah, take the Cash in hand and waive the Rest:
Oh, the brave Music of a distant Drum!
Omar Khayyam`

 

[Dawnofhope]

So it's a meaningless platitude--got it.

Sounds angry.

Evidently I'm not the only one, when you've got members of that faith diligently attempting to correct your misuse of their figures.

So where are all these people on RF trying to correct me?

The difference being that with most "any two religions," one doesn't claim incorrect things about the other. You certainly don't see Hindus claiming, for instance, that Jesus is an incarnation of Krishna.

So lets consider what you have said about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith:

post #70
I've noticed that the Baha'i's love to play tolerant, but they're just as bad as Christians or Muslims when it comes to looking down their nose at most non-Abrahamic faiths.

Post #87
No he didn't. In fact, Rome killed him. His fanatical believers, on the other hand, continued for hundreds of years until one of them became the Emperor. Hardly a homerun from Jesus himself.

No he didn't. In the myth, his god did. In fact, the unnamed Pharaoh was going to let the Hebrews go after the first plague, and Moses was ready to high-tail it out with his people. But then your god decided that he had an example to set, changed Pharaoh's mind for him, and made his people suffer more just to prove some point.

Uh, simple; they had money and power. Are you really that naïve? Jesus didn't pull a Superman and fly around the globe bringing good cheer to mankind. People perpetuating the myth that had become the man, and teachings that hardly resemble anything that Jesus would have taught spread the "gospel truth" by coin, and blood, and fear. Jesus' message died 500 years after he did.

Post #102
There is nothing unique there, nothing "of god"; only fear and control.

Post #127
What is evident for all to see is that the Apostles got their own ideas after his death, deified him, and spread their version of his message--which got progressively violent over time, but Peter was already a pretty violent guy.

How would the Jews, Christians, and Muslims feel? I doubt if any of the adherents of those Faiths would be too keen on your perspective.

Yes, you are. You can try to psychoanalyze it all you want, pin the blame on me as "angry and unhappy", but the fact of the matter is that your group excludes people. When you say "this isn't actually a religion because..." you are excluding. And you can't very well attain world peace peacefully when you exclude people.

As far as I can see the problem isn't that I want to exclude you, rather you have no interest in being included in anything to do with the Baha'i faith because it is Abrahamic.

So let me ask you, adrian; why are various forms of Paganism "not religions"? And what, exactly, does your quote of Dr. J.E. Esslemont mean?

It is as it says. The Baha'i Faith considers certain people who have existed through history to be Manifestations of God. Their influence has spread across the globe. There are many wise and great people who are not Manifestations of God who have had profound influence.

As to the question of what constitutes a 'religion' that's an entirely different matter. Scholars on comparative religion will have much to say. I don't know the answer to your question.

 

[Windwalker]

Yes you are right. I have much to learn and hopefully one day I can become more knowledgeable than you. Please pray that I receive more humility and wisdom as I am in much need of these things.

Well I appreciate you receiving the friendly advice from me, but it's not about being more knowledgeable that someone else. For me, it's much more about the approach to knowledge itself that more important. We all have mistaken assumptions, or just plain wrong information or ideas. The key is to learn to be more open, to start with "I don't know", or, "I could possibly be wrong", rather than "This is the way it is".

To me that is one of the big reasons I have an issue with this whole "prophet from God" model of understanding. It shuts the door on knowledge and puts it under lock and key. If someone wants to believe in that, they should at the least recognize that what they think the prophet meant might be incorrect. Denying knowledge to preserve belief, to me, is a grave sin.

How many times I see the knowledge of the people here and feel more than disappointed with my ignorance. But that hopefully keeps me trying to learn from you all.

Well, again it's not about all the things you know, but rather our openness to truth and knowledge, which acknowledges our own fallibility. That's the true measure and worth, far beyond what we know.

 

[Windwalker]

How would the Jews, Christians, and Muslims feel? I doubt if any of the adherents of those Faiths would be too keen on your perspective.

You are incorrect. I can say for myself, as well as for other Christians I personally know that everything he said in those quotes of his you listed is accurate and true. I have no issue acknowledging those, recognizing the mythic structures and stories of the Christian narrative. Not all who identify with the Christian faith in one form or another have to bury their heads in the sand in order to both feel true to and honor the lineage. The same holds true in other religions as well. In fact, progressive views which don't need to deny knowledge are how all religions can and should evolve in order to have any continuing relevance and value to anyone.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'll believe that the next time a Buddhist or a Hindu attempts to show you the error in baha'i interpretation of their scripts.


Is it just a phrase, or is that your groups goal? The world needs less double-speak, particularly from the Abrahamic groups.


That is not the only qualifier. When a baha'i tells a Hindu - despite studious explanation to the contrary - the "actual nature" of Krishna, you are misrepresenting Hinduism. The same with the teachings of the Buddha. Your "perception" of their faiths - and others - is misrepresentation and misinterpretation through the continued misinformation that you perpetuate.


And you don't see the problem there? You've been told that your views are contradictory to the very nature of Krishna and the Buddha themselves. I don't often use this, but what you're doing is tantamount to cultural appropriation. You don't understand the figures that you're taking and using for your prophets, you just do so for reasons that are really unclear. The problem is not Buddhist and Hindu beliefs, the problem is baha'i use of Buddha and Krishna as prophets just because "they were wise."

Well that's a blatant lie. Especially when we have multiple threads of you baha'inians saying that Paganism "isn't actually a religion" and discounting our deeply and sacredly held beliefs as comic book characters. Nobody likes being marginalized, adrian, and when you go on about "world peace" but leave out certain groups - yes, we Pagans - that gives the impression that we are not part of your world, and could certainly imply darker things that that. You baha'is go on about peace and brotherhood, but you're not making any friends outside your circle.


Then perhaps you should get off the spiritual high horse and learn about them, rather than discredit them. Especially when there's such pressure to read and understand bahai beliefs.

Well I appreciate you receiving the friendly advice from me, but it's not about being more knowledgeable that someone else. For me, it's much more about the approach to knowledge itself that more important. We all have mistaken assumptions, or just plain wrong information or ideas. The key is to learn to be more open, to start with "I don't know", or, "I could possibly be wrong", rather than "This is the way it is".

To me that is one of the big reasons I have an issue with this whole "prophet from God" model of understanding. It shuts the door on knowledge and puts it under lock and key. If someone wants to believe in that, they should at the least recognize that what they think the prophet meant might be incorrect. Denying knowledge to preserve belief, to me, is a grave sin.


Well, again it's not about all the things you know, but rather our openness to truth and knowledge, which acknowledges our own fallibility. That's the true measure and worth, far beyond what we know.

Well I appreciate you receiving the friendly advice from me, but it's not about being more knowledgeable that someone else. For me, it's much more about the approach to knowledge itself that more important. We all have mistaken assumptions, or just plain wrong information or ideas. The key is to learn to be more open, to start with "I don't know", or, "I could possibly be wrong", rather than "This is the way it is".

To me that is one of the big reasons I have an issue with this whole "prophet from God" model of understanding. It shuts the door on knowledge and puts it under lock and key. If someone wants to believe in that, they should at the least recognize that what they think the prophet meant might be incorrect. Denying knowledge to preserve belief, to me, is a grave sin.


Well, again it's not about all the things you know, but rather our openness to truth and knowledge, which acknowledges our own fallibility. That's the true measure and worth, far beyond what we know.

I agree with most of what you said. As to the Prophet of God model, well we Baha'is don't interpret the Baha'i Writings. There were only two Interpreters after Baha'u'llah and that was His appointed Interpreter in His Will, His eldest son, Abdul-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi the great grandson of Abdul-Bahá appointed by Him in His Will and Testament.

The reason we have no other authoritative interpreters after Shoghi Effendi passed away is because He left no will.

If we just interpreted as we wished the Baha'i Faith would end up in schisms like other Faiths. So we can think for ourselves but cannot change the authoritative interpretations of Abdul-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi.

 

[Windwalker]

I agree with most of what you said. As to the Prophet of God model, well we Baha'is don't interpret the Baha'i Writings. There were only two Interpreters after Baha'u'llah and that was His appointed Interpreter in His Will, His eldest son, Abdul-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi the great grandson of Abdul-Bahá appointed by Him in His Will and Testament.

Of course you interpret them. All human beings alive interpret the things they hear or read. If I say something directly to you, face to face, you still have to interpret the meaning of the words I say to you. It doesn't just go straight from my brain directly into yours. It has to pass through all the interpretive filters and processes of your particular and unique brain. This is true for every single human alive today, and every human who has ever lived in any age.

So when you say there are only two interpreters.... you still have to interpret what they say! Right? If you don't agree, let's discuss this point a little further as it comes to what I said before about how we can remain "open" to truth. We are fallible interpreters, one and all.

If we just interpreted as we wished the Baha'i Faith would end up in schisms like other Faiths.

Interpreting something does not mean you go off half-cocked into la la land, making stuff up "as you wished". Obviously there are paramaters, filters that put our interpreted ideas within a general "consensus" pool, but I guarantee you, no two people understand a common "truth" 100% in lock-stepped ideas. We should talk about this a little more.

So we can think for ourselves but cannot change the authoritative interpretations of Abdul-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi.

Which I think is unfortunate, because what happens when new knowledge comes along that challenges how they understood something at the time and made a pronouncement of absolute truth? Then what? You see what I mean about putting a lock and key on ideas, and how that will ultimately harm faith?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Of course you interpret them. All human beings alive interpret the things they hear or read. If I say something directly to you, face to face, you still have to interpret the meaning of the words I say to you. It doesn't just go straight from my brain directly into yours. It has to pass through all the interpretive filters and processes of your particular and unique brain. This is true for every single human alive today, and every human who has ever lived in any age.

So when you say there are only two interpreters.... you still have to interpret what they say! Right? If you don't agree, let's discuss this point a little further as it comes to what I said before about how we can remain "open" to truth. We are fallible interpreters, one and all.



Interpreting something does not mean you go off half-cocked into la la land, making stuff up "as you wished". Obviously there are paramaters, filters that put our interpreted ideas within a general "consensus" pool, but I guarantee you, no two people understand a common "truth" 100% in lock-stepped ideas. We should talk about this a little more.


Which I think is unfortunate, because what happens when new knowledge comes along that challenges how they understood something at the time and made a pronouncement of absolute truth? Then what? You see what I mean about putting a lock and key on ideas, and how that will ultimately harm faith?

Individual interpretation is fine as long as we understand that it's not authoritative or binding in other Baha'is and is only our own personal opinion.

Being nfallible then that flaw will not occuer as their interpretation is divinely guided and protected.

 

[Windwalker]

Individual interpretation is fine as long as we understand that it's not authoritative or binding in other Baha'is and is only our own personal opinion.

Being nfallible then that flaw will not occuer as their interpretation is divinely guided and protected.

But their understanding still has to come from their brain into yours. It cannot bypass your interpreting what they say. In the end, nothing you believe is "not your interpretation". Everything you think and believe is interpreted by you. Therefore, nothing you believe is infallible, even if you claim the source is infallible.

If you disagree, then how can that work? Do you understand how information comes from one mind to another?