How Banks Are Enslaving Humans

[Revoltingest]

And rich people don't do these things?

Somehow, they manage to earn &/or keep their wealth.
But I've known 1 or 2 who squandered a big hunk'o money.
Those who are or become poor because of bad decisions
must take responsibility for those decisions, & not blame others.

 

[Stevicus]

I've been clear as a bell (no insinuations).

No, you really haven't.

No offense taken....conversation just hasn't yet been productive.

You said that I was being "ad hominem" (when I wasn't), and you also said that I was making the discussion about you (when I wasn't). Conversation hasn't been productive because you don't want it to be. That's your choice, not mine.

 

[Stevicus]

People do need personable accountability, but, at the same time, this "poor choices" mentality in America is severely overplayed. If poor choices were all that kept people in poverty, why is there still so much of it? And what about teens? There brain is still immature, and they are known for making poor choices. Should they follow them for the rest of their lives, because that is the direction we're heading in.
Everybody makes mistakes, everyone makes poor decisions. One class shouldn't be singled out for them. The only difference is because one class can afford poor decisions and aren't noticed as often.

I agree with your point about the "poor choices" mentality being overplayed in America. Part of it has to do with maintaining certain propagandistic myths about America being the "land of opportunity" and notions that "anyone can do anything once they put their mind to it." It's magical thinking of the kind propagated by Norman Vincent Peale and others of his ilk.

So, in order to maintain this illusion, it's necessary to severely overplay the notion that, if there are those who are poor or can't make it in this society - there must be something wrong with them and the choices that they've made. There couldn't possibly be anything wrong with our society, since we live in Utopia here. That's the general implication of the argument in question.

 

[darkendless]

And rich people don't do these things?

Risk and reward. Rich people tend to absorb more risk in their careers and are thus 'in too deep' to make rookie errors. They are financially rewarded for the risks they take (unless they stuff up or make a poor decision). Poor people who work minimum wage/minimum skill jobs are generally not required to maintain the same professional standard.

I mentor uni students into the engineering industry. Seeing a professional attitude develop is a curious thing.

As to the OP it's always amusing to see people continually blame the rich. Being poor is not terminal if you make good decisions. A colleague of mine lived in poverty in Bosnia during the war. Now he's a senior engineer with a solid reputation. He worked his way up from the bottom. I find too many excuses are made for a lack of application.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Risk and reward. Rich people tend to absorb more risk in their careers and are thus 'in too deep' to make rookie errors. They are financially rewarded for the risks they take (unless they stuff up or make a poor decision). Poor people who work minimum wage/minimum skill jobs are generally not required to maintain the same professional standard.

That is not at all what I was referring too. There is a mentality in our society that we like to put the "mistakes and poor choices" of the poor under a microscope, but when it comes the rich we seem to not ever mention anything about them, even though they both do the same sort of things.

 

[darkendless]

That is not at all what I was referring too. There is a mentality in our society that we like to put the "mistakes and poor choices" of the poor under a microscope, but when it comes the rich we seem to not ever mention anything about them, even though they both do the same sort of things.

I guess universally the poor are blamed for being poor.

Here it's the other way around. The poor seem to be excused on the grounds of 'misfortune' whilst the rich are crucified. Our society seems to be geared towards resentment of the rich. The rich are the ones who create jobs through investment and pay net income tax. 50% of our country pays no net income tax. 50% of the countries income take is paid by 2% of the population. Taxes on people wearing over 80k have been increased (taxed $800 more/year on *80k and increasing). Social forums are always quick to blame the well off for the problems of the poor. I for one do not understand the hatred for the biggest contributors in society.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I guess universally the poor are blamed for being poor.

Here it's the other way around. The poor seem to be excused on the grounds of 'misfortune' whilst the rich are crucified. Our society seems to be geared towards resentment of the rich. The rich are the ones who create jobs through investment and pay net income tax. 50% of our country pays no net income tax. 50% of the countries income take is paid by 2% of the population. Taxes on people wearing over 80k have been increased (taxed $800 more/year on *80k and increasing). Social forums are always quick to blame the well off for the problems of the poor. I for one do not understand the hatred for the biggest contributors in society.

And that couldn't possible be from the massive wealth-gap in America, the bulk of income since the recession going to the very top, and everyone else having wages that, at best, have been stagnant?
If you want to look at the biggest contributors, look no further than the cashier who rings your food up, works at a gas station, sales attendants, and others like them. If it weren't for those people who put up with endless ****, no-to-poor benefits, low pay, and little hope of getting ahead, we couldn't have the society that we have. You'd have to make your own food if there were no food service workers. Transportation would be very different without convenience store workers. And even factory workers and truckers do their part to contribute to things that society does.
Every last member of the global bourgeois could disappear today and the world would carry on without them like it has.

I for one do not understand the hatred for the biggest contributors in society.

With the specific job creators you refer to, mine usually starts with the severe exploitation and destructive habits of companies like Nike, Tyson, WalMart, Apple, Nestle, Dole, Chiquita, Microsoft, BP, BoA, etc. They have so much money that they buy up other nations, forcing them into a peripheral role that allows us to live so cheaply. These nations struggle to develop their own national bourgeois because Western Capitalist own too much. It's because of the ultra-wealthy we have an economy that is very fragile, and suffers from turmoil at a rate that suggest long-term our economy is not stable.

 

[darkendless]

And that couldn't possible be from the massive wealth-gap in America, the bulk of income since the recession going to the very top, and everyone else having wages that, at best, have been stagnant?

It's an issue here to. The common sense argument is that why pay more than the minimum wage for a job requiring minimum skills. In the case of the USA i understand that your minimum wage is pathetic. Here in Australia ours is at least enough to survive on.

If you want to look at the biggest contributors, look no further than the cashier who rings your food up, works at a gas station, sales attendants, and others like them. If it weren't for those people who put up with endless ****, no-to-poor benefits, low pay, and little hope of getting ahead, we couldn't have the society that we have. You'd have to make your own food if there were no food service workers. Transportation would be very different without convenience store workers. And even factory workers and truckers do their part to contribute to things that society does.

Of course but where do benefits come from. You can't tax the poor without sending them into poverty so the difference comes from the rich. The rich are also the job creators. They invest at huge personal risk and the fruits of their labour are employment opportunities.

Who bats an eyelid for a rich investor who fails? No one. Who complains when an investor makes millions following a successful calculated risk? Everyone. The problem I have with people complaining about wages is that a lot of these people (my experience only) feel that they deserve more money for doing the same thing and maintaining the same level of risk. I don't even know what to say to such people. Wages should increase in line with inflation unless more responsibility/risk is accepted or greater productivity is produced.

With the specific job creators you refer to, mine usually starts with the severe exploitation and destructive habits of companies like Nike, Tyson, WalMart, Apple, Nestle, Dole, Chiquita, Microsoft, BP, BoA, etc. They have so much money that they buy up other nations, forcing them into a peripheral role that allows us to live so cheaply. These nations struggle to develop their own national bourgeois because Western Capitalist own too much. It's because of the ultra-wealthy we have an economy that is very fragile, and suffers from turmoil at a rate that suggest long-term our economy is not stable.

Funnily enough we have a problem with China doing this. Probably 50% of the Clients I work on developments for are partially or fully funded by a Chinese entity.

Economies are not stable. Our (Oz) economy is down the toilet because China is reducing resource purchases. Our masses blame the rich and the government. Then again, they have to blame someone so why not blame the faceless corporations and those who live a life of luxury?

 

[Stevicus]

I guess universally the poor are blamed for being poor.

Here it's the other way around. The poor seem to be excused on the grounds of 'misfortune' whilst the rich are crucified. Our society seems to be geared towards resentment of the rich.

I can see where both sides may be overstating their perceptions and making blanket statements about "the rich" and "the poor," while most of us probably fall somewhere in the vaguely-defined "middle class" or "working class" as it may be known in other countries. But it's overly simplistic to generalize about the poor, since the lower classes don't all fall into the same category or grouping which can be easily summed up as "people who made bad choices."

I don't know that the rich are necessarily "crucified," at least not on a mainstream level. A lot of people glorify and envy the lifestyles of the rich and famous, especially when it comes to celebrities, rock stars, and even royalty. Likewise, many of the anecdotal "rags to riches" stories which dominate mainstream propaganda are generally glorified and given positive attention. Heck, even the guy who invented the Pet Rock is remembered fondly, although the suckers who actually spent money on that silly thing - that's a different matter.

But the historical record also shows that not all who became rich did so under honorable, peaceful, ethical, or lawful circumstances, and in those situations, there might be negative attention and resentment.

I don't think very many people blame all the rich; I think the real focus of resentment is against those with power and others who use knowledge of the system for unscrupulous gain.

When it comes to the poor, I think distinctions should be made between those who are genuinely lazy, criminal, or otherwise dishonest versus those who may be truly disabled, mentally ill, or some other malady.
Then there are those who may work at a low-paying, menial job, yet they're still working an honest job, following the rules, and doing what they can to be good citizens contributing to the value of their community. They don't deserve to be treated like dirt or lumped in with bums and welfare chiselers.

So, yes, you're right that there's resentment of the rich, but also resentment of the poor - not to mention other levels of resentment overall. It's clearly having an effect on the level of political gridlock and divisiveness taking place. The politicians and pundits will continue to stir the pot, as they need their jobs as well.

 

[pro4life]

Are you?
I asked for an alternative to capitalism, & you responded with Keynes's flavor of capitalism.

Abolish Banks and bank loans.
Also charge a fixed rate tax (~3%) on total wealth of each individual of which that wealth is able to generate money.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Who bats an eyelid for a rich investor who fails? No one. Who complains when an investor makes millions following a successful calculated risk? Everyone.

The problem with them making millions from investments is that they are making those millions just because they already have millions. It's a perpetual motion of upward power.

In the case of the USA i understand that your minimum wage is pathetic.

It is. Even where what is apparently one of the cheapest places to live in America, current minimum wage isn't enough for even a living wage. You may work, but it's a few factory and skilled trade jobs and sea of food-service and retail. Which is why it's so cheap here because most people can't afford much more than cheap, if they can even afford that.

Funnily enough we have a problem with China doing this. Probably 50% of the Clients I work on developments for are partially or fully funded by a Chinese entity.

China is a whole other issue. They are reason enough to reconsider how the economy works, because they are willing to provide cheap labor prices that the largest corporations are looking for, and although some in China profit greatly, they do nothing to protect their workers, who make pennies a day. They're also bad about stealing and cloning technology to make the cheap knock-off brands.

Economies are not stable.

This is one of the reasons to work towards a different economy. One that is not consumption based to spare the planet, one that is internally designed to prevent exploitation, and one where people will not be devastated when larger market forces outside of their control aren't doing well.

 

[Revoltingest]

Abolish Banks and bank loans.
Also charge a fixed rate tax (~3%) on total wealth of each individual of which that wealth is able to generate money.

That would be a real lifestyle changer!
I'm give'n up all me stuff, & go'n on the dole.
All youz young whippersnappers can work yer behinds off to support me & mine.

 

[Wirey]

Abolish Banks and bank loans.
Also charge a fixed rate tax (~3%) on total wealth of each individual of which that wealth is able to generate money.

A 3% tax rate would instantly bankrupt the government. A graduated scale work better, especially if it includes tax breaks for investment. Get rich people to sink their cash back into their business, and you create jobs.

 

[Revoltingest]

A 3% tax rate would instantly bankrupt the government. A graduated scale work better, especially if it includes tax breaks for investment. Get rich people to sink their cash back into their business, and you create jobs.

I think he's proposing to charge a wealth tax on top of all the other taxes (income, property, sales, intangibles, business, personal property). Government would still go bankrupt though, despite the extra revenue.

 

[pro4life]

I think he's proposing to charge a wealth tax on top of all the other taxes (income, property, sales, intangibles, business, personal property). Government would still go bankrupt though, despite the extra revenue.

Actually the opposite, remove all the above taxes you mentioned

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually the opposite, remove all the above taxes you mentioned

That's not so bad, but a tax based solely upon wealth would sure change things in unexpected ways.