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How best to argue against creationists

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Is it possible that there is a creator at work in the evolution of humankind?

Sure, haven't I said so at least 100 times, to you?

As I have now said to you many, many, times. The Theory of Evolution (ToE) is NOT the theory that there is no God. That is called atheism. ToE is a specific scientific theory in a specific scientific field and like all scientific theories, is completely consistent with the idea that God created all things. For that reason, as I have typed to you so many times my fingers are bored just repeating it, when discussing evolution, we can all assume that God created all things. That is because ToE, like all scientific theories, is about
HOW. HOW. HOW. NOT WHO, HOW.

Do me a favor. Repeat this phrase after me and see if it penetrates. Thanks.
 

McBell

Unbound
Sure, haven't I said so at least 100 times, to you?

As I have now said to you many, many, times. The Theory of Evolution (ToE) is NOT the theory that there is no God. That is called atheism. ToE is a specific scientific theory in a specific scientific field and like all scientific theories, is completely consistent with the idea that God created all things. For that reason, as I have typed to you so many times my fingers are bored just repeating it, when discussing evolution, we can all assume that God created all things. That is because ToE, like all scientific theories, is about
HOW. HOW. HOW. NOT WHO, HOW.

Do me a favor. Repeat this phrase after me and see if it penetrates. Thanks.
Seems to me that you will have to tell Danmac at least three times a POST that God made everything so that evolution could work.

Otherwise his weak faith will require him to lapse repeatedly.
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
When you base your religious faith on denying scientific truth, at some level you know you're in trouble.
 

Danmac

Well-Known Member
Sure, haven't I said so at least 100 times, to you?

As I have now said to you many, many, times. The Theory of Evolution (ToE) is NOT the theory that there is no God. That is called atheism. ToE is a specific scientific theory in a specific scientific field and like all scientific theories, is completely consistent with the idea that God created all things. For that reason, as I have typed to you so many times my fingers are bored just repeating it, when discussing evolution, we can all assume that God created all things. That is because ToE, like all scientific theories, is about
HOW. HOW. HOW. NOT WHO, HOW.

Do me a favor. Repeat this phrase after me and see if it penetrates. Thanks.

I cannot believe that which contradicts my Bible. It has proved to be true too often for me to doubt any of it.

Genesis2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Therefore, man could not have come from another creature. He is distinct, from all other life forms. Mankind cannot be reduced to a mere animal. He was made in the image of his creator. Apes were not.

Genesis1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
The debate must be focused on the question of why? Why is it so important that evolution be wrong? Why is a literal interpretation of Genesis so important?
Thats one good approach.
Another one is to actually debate creationism.
Creationsists often spend their time telling you that evolution is wrong.
Instead of discussing that and wasting time with presenting evidence they ignore anyway the best thing (especially in front of a huge audience) is to ask them to present the evidence FOR their "theory".
They should be taken to the task to explain how life came to be and what evidence supports that except for their small interpretation of some ancient script.
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
I cannot believe that which contradicts my Bible.
That statement alone is a confession of dogma instead of open search for truth.

It has proved to be true too often for me to doubt any of it.
As you surely will know (and probably follow in any aspect of life except your religion) it doesn't matter how many times something or someone is right for the question if he couldn't still be wrong at another time. So even if the bible had proved to be true (which in my case i would definetly doubt) that wouldn't mean it always has been and will be true.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
I cannot believe that which contradicts my Bible.
And there you have it folks. No matter what scientific facts you present. No matter what empirical evidence you may show. If it is contrary to what certain Creationists believe his/her reveled revelation says, it will be dismissed.
This is intentionally remaining ignorant of reality, or willful ignorance.
Not much you can do about it with some Creationists.
But there is hope. Believe it or not, at one time I used to carry around that little book of misinformation called "The Handy Dandy Evolution Refuter". Fortunately for me, I dug deeper. I wanted to be sure I was completely informed about that which I argued against. And I found out the information I was given by those promoting Creationism was wrong. I did not like being lied to "in God's name".
I was honest with myself. I did not want to remain ignorant. And I began to despise those who wanted to keep me in the dark.
The point being, although there are many Creationists, like Danmac, who are perfectly happy to remain ignorant as long as they get to keep their dogma, there are others out there who, when they find out they are being lied to, will strive to learn the reality of the world, no matter how painful that may be.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I cannot believe that which contradicts my Bible. It has proved to be true too often for me to doubt any of it.

Genesis2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Therefore, man could not have come from another creature. He is distinct, from all other life forms. Mankind cannot be reduced to a mere animal. He was made in the image of his creator. Apes were not.

Genesis1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Fine, I understand. You reject science in favor of your religious creation myth. That's your perfect prerogative, and while I think it's wrong, it's your right to be wrong in that way. What I have a problem with is you bolstering your own comfort by telling lies, such as that ToE is not supported by the evidence, when it is. Does your religion have anything to say about the importance of telling the truth?

So, just to be clear, you believe that an invisible powerful being formed a shape out of dirt and magically brought it to life, and that's how people came to be?
 

newhope101

Active Member
Maybe creationists look to the incredible amount of things that needed to be in situ for life to have started and flourished. The building blocks for life are scattered throughout the universe. How amazing that the earth is situated right where it is in relation to the sun, the atmosphere and ozone layer being just what we need, the amazing factory within a single cell, protection from asteroids that Jupiter affords so that life can proliferate, the seasons, the rain. Those building blocks were able to do their thing on earth unlike other planets. So far only earth has managed to produce a beautiful creation. Mankind is so incredibly fortunate to have had all this in place. Then there are articles such as the ones pasted below. So it seems that some scientists question the validity of ToE. This does not prove creation, but it allows room for doubt. It’s not really that hard to believe some higher intelligence may be behind it all.


 
Molecular biologists and researchers at the Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona (UAB) Department of Genetics and Microbiology, in Spain, have recently called into question the established belief that the earliest life forms on the planet appeared from self-catalytic molecules. They say that these structures are unable of Darwinian evolution, and propose that a new explanation needs to be sought out for shedding light on the origins of the huge diversity for life on our planet, AlphaGalileo reports.
AND....
A Review Of The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds By Douglas Axe, Bio-Complexity, Issue 1, pp. 1-12
Proteins adopt a higher order structure (eg: alpha helices and beta sheets) that define their functional domains. Years ago Michael Denton and Craig Marshall reviewed this higher structural order in proteins and proposed that protein folding patterns could be classified into a finite number of discrete families whose construction might be constrained by a set of underlying natural laws (1). In his latest critique Biologic Institute molecular biologist Douglas Axe has raised the ever-pertinent question of whether Darwinian evolution can adequately explain the origins of protein structure folds given the vast search space of possible protein sequence combinations that exist for moderately large proteins, say 300 amino acids in length. To begin Axe introduces his readers to the sampling problem. That is, given the postulated maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred since the universe began (10150) we cannot surmise that evolution has had enough time to find the 10390 possible amino-acid combinations of a 300 amino acid long protein.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Maybe creationists look to the incredible amount of things that needed to be in situ for life to have started and flourished. The building blocks for life are scattered throughout the universe. How amazing that the earth is situated right where it is in relation to the sun, the atmosphere and ozone layer being just what we need, the amazing factory within a single cell, protection from asteroids that Jupiter affords so that life can proliferate, the seasons, the rain. Those building blocks were able to do their thing on earth unlike other planets. So far only earth has managed to produce a beautiful creation. Mankind is so incredibly fortunate to have had all this in place. Then there are articles such as the ones pasted below. So it seems that some scientists question the validity of ToE. This does not prove creation, but it allows room for doubt. It’s not really that hard to believe some higher intelligence may be behind it all.
That's an argument from hindsight (that's what I call it anyway, I'm sure there's a better name for the formal fallacy). Life could of arisen in any place, by any means, and you would still be saying the same thing. There is no possible or logical way to determine the "possibility" of life arising, since we still have no definite idea of the requirements for life to form, much less whether the conditions earth found itself were the only requirements for life to form. Life thrives on earth because of the earth's location, but that does not mean anything more than moss thrives on a ball in a puddle because of the ball's location. It doesn't indicate anything, and it doesn't lend any credibility whatsoever to the notion of a "higher intelligence".

Molecular biologists and researchers at the Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona (UAB) Department of Genetics and Microbiology, in Spain, have recently called into question the established belief that the earliest life forms on the planet appeared from self-catalytic molecules. They say that these structures are unable of Darwinian evolution, and propose that a new explanation needs to be sought out for shedding light on the origins of the huge diversity for life on our planet, AlphaGalileo reports.
That paper doesn't say anything like what you're claiming it does.

AND....
A Review Of The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds By Douglas Axe, Bio-Complexity, Issue 1, pp. 1-12
Proteins adopt a higher order structure (eg: alpha helices and beta sheets) that define their functional domains. Years ago Michael Denton and Craig Marshall reviewed this higher structural order in proteins and proposed that protein folding patterns could be classified into a finite number of discrete families whose construction might be constrained by a set of underlying natural laws (1). In his latest critique Biologic Institute molecular biologist Douglas Axe has raised the ever-pertinent question of whether Darwinian evolution can adequately explain the origins of protein structure folds given the vast search space of possible protein sequence combinations that exist for moderately large proteins, say 300 amino acids in length. To begin Axe introduces his readers to the sampling problem. That is, given the postulated maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred since the universe began (10150) we cannot surmise that evolution has had enough time to find the 10390 possible amino-acid combinations of a 300 amino acid long protein.
Do you understand any of that and what relevance it has to abiogenesis or evolution?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
How best to argue against creationists

You can make it a drinking game.

Every time they say something stupid, you take a shot.
 

newhope101

Active Member
That's an argument from hindsight (that's what I call it anyway, I'm sure there's a better name for the formal fallacy). Life could of arisen in any place, by any means, and you would still be saying the same thing. There is no possible or logical way to determine the "possibility" of life arising, since we still have no definite idea of the requirements for life to form, much less whether the conditions earth found itself were the only requirements for life to form. Life thrives on earth because of the earth's location, but that does not mean anything more than moss thrives on a ball in a puddle because of the ball's location. It doesn't indicate anything, and it doesn't lend any credibility whatsoever to the notion of a "higher intelligence". Quote.

I'm sorry, but the moss that thrives on the ball wouldn't thrive if it was on Mars. If earth is not so special one may expect to have found some sort of life elsewhere. Earth appears to be unique in that so many factors came together not only for life to have begun but even more appears to be necessry for it to thrive.

No I do not understand the science I posted. I don't think one has to understand the detail to pick up that scientists disagree amongst themselves.The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds appears to use the word "against". Seems to me this scientist is refuting something of the status quo, same as the other article. It appears this guy is saying there was not enough time for it all to have happened.

What's your point? Are you trying to say there is complete agreement between scientists as to 'how' it all works. If so, despite all your knowlege of genetics, biology etc, perhaps you remain less educated and narrow minded than many. There's lots of info that suggests disagreement between scientists on TOE. Scienctists say we evolved, yet there is much disagreement as to how. Same as there is much debate about where current humans came from. There is much debate about everything apart from scientists agreeing we came from primates because of similar DNA. You'd best get out there and have a look. Do you understand the articles? You have done well to find the full article, read it and posted in the space of a few minutes. Well done!

I can respect your opinion but don't make out it's all sorted. There are many unanswerd questions and conflicting data. I can't believe evolutionists continue to alledge there is no debate about anything.. ...and that can leave room for doubt. That's my point...
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Maybe creationists look to the incredible amount of things that needed to be in situ for life to have started and flourished. The building blocks for life are scattered throughout the universe. How amazing that the earth is situated right where it is in relation to the sun, the atmosphere and ozone layer being just what we need, the amazing factory within a single cell, protection from asteroids that Jupiter affords so that life can proliferate, the seasons, the rain. Those building blocks were able to do their thing on earth unlike other planets. So far only earth has managed to produce a beautiful creation. Mankind is so incredibly fortunate to have had all this in place. Then there are articles such as the ones pasted below. So it seems that some scientists question the validity of ToE. This does not prove creation, but it allows room for doubt. It’s not really that hard to believe some higher intelligence may be behind it all.


 
Molecular biologists and researchers at the Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona (UAB) Department of Genetics and Microbiology, in Spain, have recently called into question the established belief that the earliest life forms on the planet appeared from self-catalytic molecules. They say that these structures are unable of Darwinian evolution, and propose that a new explanation needs to be sought out for shedding light on the origins of the huge diversity for life on our planet, AlphaGalileo reports.
AND....
A Review Of The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds By Douglas Axe, Bio-Complexity, Issue 1, pp. 1-12
Proteins adopt a higher order structure (eg: alpha helices and beta sheets) that define their functional domains. Years ago Michael Denton and Craig Marshall reviewed this higher structural order in proteins and proposed that protein folding patterns could be classified into a finite number of discrete families whose construction might be constrained by a set of underlying natural laws (1). In his latest critique Biologic Institute molecular biologist Douglas Axe has raised the ever-pertinent question of whether Darwinian evolution can adequately explain the origins of protein structure folds given the vast search space of possible protein sequence combinations that exist for moderately large proteins, say 300 amino acids in length. To begin Axe introduces his readers to the sampling problem. That is, given the postulated maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred since the universe began (10150) we cannot surmise that evolution has had enough time to find the 10390 possible amino-acid combinations of a 300 amino acid long protein.

Can you explain why you're talking about abiogenesis in a thread about evolution? Did you not know they are two different subjects? Or do you not care? Which?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
If earth is not so special one may expect to have found some sort of life elsewhere. Earth appears to be unique in that so many factors came together not only for life to have begun but even more appears to be necessry for it to thrive.

Now before you go any further, stop and think. You are claiming that we should expect to have found life elsewhere. Of the trillions of planets in the universe, how many have we visited?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
That's an argument from hindsight (that's what I call it anyway, I'm sure there's a better name for the formal fallacy). Life could of arisen in any place, by any means, and you would still be saying the same thing. There is no possible or logical way to determine the "possibility" of life arising, since we still have no definite idea of the requirements for life to form, much less whether the conditions earth found itself were the only requirements for life to form. Life thrives on earth because of the earth's location, but that does not mean anything more than moss thrives on a ball in a puddle because of the ball's location. It doesn't indicate anything, and it doesn't lend any credibility whatsoever to the notion of a "higher intelligence". Quote.

I'm sorry, but the moss that thrives on the ball wouldn't thrive if it was on Mars. If earth is not so special one may expect to have found some sort of life elsewhere. Earth appears to be unique in that so many factors came together not only for life to have begun but even more appears to be necessry for it to thrive.

No I do not understand the science I posted. I don't think one has to understand the detail to pick up that scientists disagree amongst themselves.The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds appears to use the word "against". Seems to me this scientist is refuting something of the status quo, same as the other article.

What's your point? Are you trying to say there is complete agreement between scientists as to 'how' it all works. If so, despite all your knowlege of genetics, biology etc, perhaps you remain less educated and narrow minded than many. There's lots of info that suggests disagreement between scientists on TOE. Scienctists say we evolved, yet there is much disagreement as to how. Same as there is much debate about where current humans came from. There is much debate about everything apart from scientists agreeing we came from primates because of similar DNA.

I can respect your opinion but don't make out it's all sorted. There are many unanswerd questions and conflicting data. I can't believe evolutionists continue to allege there is no debate. ...and that can leave room for doubt. That's my point.

No, and this is a very important point to understand. There is no significant disagreement about whether the Theory of Evolution is correct. It is a virtual consensus of Biologists, more than 99% of them. It is not a controversial theory within Biology. In fact, it's the foundational theory of all of modern Biology.

And yes, there are many unanswered questions and conflicting data within that theory. Do you see the difference?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I'm sorry, but the moss that thrives on the ball wouldn't thrive if it was on Mars.
That is because it didn't evolve to live on Mars. Now that we know there is water there, we can actually start seriously looking for life there.

If earth is not so special one may expect to have found some sort of life elsewhere.
Because most live is microscopic and we haven't had the technology to look and be certain we were not contaminating the evidence. The problem with such arguments from ignorance is that eventually reality (and human abilities) catch up.

Earth appears to be unique in that so many factors came together not only for life to have begun but even more appears to be necessry for it to thrive.
Only because we have a rediculously limited view of the universe. We are just now starting to be able to find Earth sized planets in systems outside our own.

How do you expect us to be able to judge the hundreds of thousands of other galaxies in our neighborhood?

wa:do
 

McBell

Unbound
Maybe creationists look to the incredible amount of things that needed to be in situ for life to have started and flourished. The building blocks for life are scattered throughout the universe. How amazing that the earth is situated right where it is in relation to the sun, the atmosphere and ozone layer being just what we need, the amazing factory within a single cell, protection from asteroids that Jupiter affords so that life can proliferate, the seasons, the rain. Those building blocks were able to do their thing on earth unlike other planets. So far only earth has managed to produce a beautiful creation. Mankind is so incredibly fortunate to have had all this in place. Then there are articles such as the ones pasted below. So it seems that some scientists question the validity of ToE. This does not prove creation, but it allows room for doubt. It’s not really that hard to believe some higher intelligence may be behind it all.


 
Molecular biologists and researchers at the Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona (UAB) Department of Genetics and Microbiology, in Spain, have recently called into question the established belief that the earliest life forms on the planet appeared from self-catalytic molecules. They say that these structures are unable of Darwinian evolution, and propose that a new explanation needs to be sought out for shedding light on the origins of the huge diversity for life on our planet, AlphaGalileo reports.
AND....
A Review Of The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds By Douglas Axe, Bio-Complexity, Issue 1, pp. 1-12
Proteins adopt a higher order structure (eg: alpha helices and beta sheets) that define their functional domains. Years ago Michael Denton and Craig Marshall reviewed this higher structural order in proteins and proposed that protein folding patterns could be classified into a finite number of discrete families whose construction might be constrained by a set of underlying natural laws (1). In his latest critique Biologic Institute molecular biologist Douglas Axe has raised the ever-pertinent question of whether Darwinian evolution can adequately explain the origins of protein structure folds given the vast search space of possible protein sequence combinations that exist for moderately large proteins, say 300 amino acids in length. To begin Axe introduces his readers to the sampling problem. That is, given the postulated maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred since the universe began (10150) we cannot surmise that evolution has had enough time to find the 10390 possible amino-acid combinations of a 300 amino acid long protein.
[FONT=Arial,Geneva,Helvetica,sans-serif]This is an interesting world I find myself in - an interesting hole I find myself in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it?[/FONT]
~D.Adams' Puddle
 
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