How Both the Republicans and the Democrats Have Joined Forces to Screw You

[Trailblazer]

the trends of the past 40 or so years, during which the middle class has grown poorer and poorer while the elite top 1% of the top 1% have grown richer and richer. For example, within the past 40 years, there has been a transfer of wealth from the middle class to the uppermost upper class of around 500 trillion dollars. That's a real concern --

So what do you see as the solution?
Do you think the poor and middle class has shrunk all because of the cost of goods and services?
Please bear in mind I am a newbie to this politics stuff.

 

[PureX]

I don't see it because I have been in my own private hell for most of the last 50 years struggling just to survive. As such, I never had time to pay attention to economic and social issues. But also, as a Baha'i I believe that equity and justice will eventually be established in the world so I do not concern myself with politics.

I am sincerely sorry for your long travail.

But your Baha'i teachings do not seem to reflect reality. Since the 1970s, equity and justice seem to have been on the wane, not the increase. Greed has become the dominant motive for nearly everything business and government does. Forcing the general popuace to scramble in a similar way just to try and stay afloat, economically. And as all this fear and greed become our national obsession; justice, and generosity, and cooperation, and security and peace all fall by the wayside.

 

[PureX]

It's also not lost on some of us that most of what passes as progressive politics is silly squabling about who is oppressed the most. As if changing the skin tone or gender identities of the people who live off owning the things people need is going to amount to much more than a fart in the wind. It's not a threat to them. This is why wokeness is making its way through the corporate world faster than a vindaloo through a drunk man.

When you throw a bunch of people into the water, and they fear they're going to drown, they will begin to claw at each other, trying to push the other person down to raise themselves up, in an effort to keep themselves afloat. The economic version of this sad scenario is what's fueling a lot of our current social strife.

 

[Altfish]

Dark money, for one. It need not go through PACs, and PACs might even be small potatoes compared to the sums involved in dark money.

OK, I (as a foreigner) assumed that the Koch's and Mercers and Putins, etc funneled their money through PACs

 

[tytlyf]

False equivalence. Only 1 party denies the science of climate change. Only 1 party always gives the freebies to the wealthy elitists and not the middle class.

The party's aren't even close to being the same.

 

[Sunstone]

So what do you see as the solution?
Do you think the poor and middle class has shrunk all because of the cost of goods and services?
Please bear in mind I am a newbie to this politics stuff.

Where to begin? Well first, I appreciate your interest. You and I have something in common. I spent most of my life uninterested in politics, economics, and most social issues. Only got really interested a couple decades ago, and that's when I began buying books and magazines, subscribing to newspapers, and in general gradually and sometimes painfully educating myself on what has been going on. So, we have that much in common.

As I see it, the core problem is the vast and growing gap between 'the richest and the rest'. In my opinion, it amounts to a grave threat to our democracy -- and indeed, it has been undermining it for at least 40 years. I wouldn't mind at all someone having 100 billion dollars and me having 100 dollars were it not for the fact the billionaire is highly likely to use some of that money to, in effect, buy my government, and shape its laws, regulations, and policies to favor them -- often at my expense.

Having said that, there is no one solution to the problem. If and when the problem is solved, it will be by a combination of things, rather than by any one thing. Moreover, the 'solution' will only be temporary -- the battle is ongoing and will never end.

So of the hundreds of things that could be done to improve the situation, here are three that would most likely help....

Universal health care -- this would have numerous benefits, such as allow small business people to compete on a more level playing field with large corporations and billionaires for talented workers. Right now, small business people often cannot afford to provide health insurance to their people, consequently, they have a hard time attracting superior talent. There are many other benefits to UHC that would help close the gap between the richest and the rest.

Ample daycare -- Poorer families with small children find it exceedingly difficult to get ahead when one parent's ability to work for an income is constrained by the necessity of looking after the kid or kids.

Universal Basic Income -- This is coming sooner or later to every industrialized nation on earth, though America will most likely be among the last to adopt it. The reason is that robots and artificial intelligences are replacing workers at accelerating rates. Within 20 years, most estimates place unemployment at or near Great Depression levels, no matter what else happens. Basically, a robot will be doing the job rather than a human. Apparently, the way out is some kind of universal basic income that was high enough people would not starve to death, could keep a roof over their heads, and clothes on their back, but not so high as to be unsustainable. Bill Gates has recommended taxing robots to pay for it. I think that's a good idea. A UBI would lessen the gap between the richest and the rest in several ways.

So -- that's three "solutions". There are hundreds, great and small. But they need to be implemented. And so far, not much is being done.

 

[Sunstone]

OK, I (as a foreigner) assumed that the Koch's and Mercers and Putins, etc funneled their money through PACs

They do in part, but that's only the start of it.

 

[Sunstone]

False equivalence. Only 1 party denies the science of climate change. Only 1 party always gives the freebies to the wealthy elitists and not the middle class.

The party's aren't even close to being the same.

Ah! The ideologically correct response at last! Good to see you again. Unfortunately you are not only ideologically correct, but also only superficially correct.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am sincerely sorry for your long travail.

Thanks.

But your Baha'i teachings do not seem to reflect reality. Since the 1970s, equity and justice seem to have been on the wane, not the increase. Greed has become the dominant motive for nearly everything business and government does. Forcing the general popuace to scramble in a similar way just to try and stay afloat, economically. And as all this fear and greed become our national obsession; justice, and generosity, and cooperation, and security and peace all fall by the wayside.

The darkest hour is just before the dawn and that is what we have been seeing all over the world for the last few decades. With the age of technology materialism has run rampant. It is not just a problem with the super rich. The whole human race has change and become less selfish and materialistic and more noble and spiritual before these systems can change. Also, economic and political systems need to be overhauled and that is what I already see happening all over the world.

Humanity did not get this way overnight so these problems won't be fixed overnight. It will take a lot of time, but I see a start, a glimmer of hope, with the new administration. Trump took us all on a major detour, but maybe that had to happen in order to wake people up. Some people are still sleeping but that won't last forever. I am very hopeful about this country and the world situation, but of course I see that through the eyes of a Baha'i, and we are very optimistic because we believe we have a good reason to be.

The Baha'i Faith is not just another new religion, it is an entire system that promotes justice and equity in the world, a new world order, that which is what was referred to in the Bible as the Kingdom of God on earth. I can be pretty downcast about my personal situation, but I am always uplifted when I think about what I believe is in store for the whole world, and thinking about it puts my rather dismal personal situation in proper perspective.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

Those of us who are Baha’is can see the old world order is dying and a new world order is rising in its stead. Not only the Baha’is but many others can see this is what is happening. And now with the challenges the world faces owing to the pandemic, change is happening all around us at an ever-increasing pace. The world will never be the same as it was before in spite of what some people hope for.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I assume you have carefully factored in those billions, if not trillions of dollars the rich park in offshore bank accounts where it cannot be taxed? Or the legal loopholes so many of them use to declare little or no taxable income? And perhaps you have also factored in how large corporations do pretty much the same things, plus a few other tricks, too. It's easy to say you have paid 69% of your income in taxes if you have only reported as taxable income a quarter or less of what you actually made.

UA, there is an economist at Stanford University who heads up a team of people that work almost exclusively on identifying and calculating how much the super-rich and large corporations avoid paying in taxes -- through both legal and illegal means. Now, unless you can tell me you yourself are an economist and the head of a team of economic and financial sleuths, I'm going to take his word that the sum is in the trillions of dollars and growing.

Do the rich pay taxes?

I'm not a "rich vs poor" person. Money in that view isn't an issue with me. Im richer than a lot of people and poorer than others. I'm sure every other person "sins," so maybe it's less about having an X amount of money and more of what people do or don't do with it, hm?

Any people who are rich that don't fit what you're saying?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I assume you have carefully factored in those billions, if not trillions of dollars the rich park in offshore bank accounts where it cannot be taxed? Or the legal loopholes so many of them use to declare little or no taxable income? And perhaps you have also factored in how large corporations do pretty much the same things, plus a few other tricks, too. It's easy to say you have paid 69% of your income in taxes if you have only reported as taxable income a quarter or less of what you actually made.

If you were rich, would you do the same or is it less about the money, and more what people do with it?

UA, there is an economist at Stanford University who heads up a team of people that work almost exclusively on identifying and calculating how much the super-rich and large corporations avoid paying in taxes -- through both legal and illegal means. Now, unless you can tell me you yourself are an economist and the head of a team of economic and financial sleuths, I'm going to take his word that the sum is in the trillions of dollars and growing.

But my question and comment was that rich do pay taxes. Whether they legally do or not or try to get out of it is irrelevant to my question/comment.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

And unfortunately, most of the rest of us don't care what happens to anyone else, either. So it's a perfect storm of self-centered indifference.

I have to say that as Humanist, I actually do care about what happens to anyone -- in fact everyone -- else. It is fundamental to my world view. I have voted all of my life for taxes that help to support others, for policies that protect the rights of everyone, and aim at ensuring the general well-being. For no other reason than that I honestly believe that happiness breeds

The boomer generation didn't have to rely on each other to fight the 'robber barons' that caused the great depression, and then the fascists that started WW2. They had freedom and prosperity handed to them, and then squandered it on foolish egotism and greed. And the worse things got, the more ignorant and divided we all became. We gave that criminal elite an open door to do anything they want. And of course what they want is to own and control everything and everyone. And now they pretty much do. And now, instead of trying to stop them, we want to BE them!

I am a boomer myself (1948 to be exact). I will agree with you that, especially as a Canadian, I had freedom handed to me, but certainly not prosperity. I had to earn that to the extent that I could. And trust me, I'm not numbered among the wealthy, and when I finally stop working, will have to scrimp and save like most people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If they love Trump so much, why is their corporate media (owned by those same multi-billionaires) savaging him so badly?

He makes one of their own look awesome. Someone who is likely to not rock the boats and make waves, and Trump is so bad more people are just glad he lost than they are over being happy Biden won.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am a boomer myself (1948 to be exact). I will agree with you that, especially as a Canadian, I had freedom handed to me, but certainly not prosperity. I had to earn that to the extent that I could. And trust me, I'm not numbered among the wealthy, and when I finally stop working, will have to scrimp and save like most people.

That's my parents. They had freedom, but both grew up dirt poor, amd stayed that way until after I was born and my dad was fortunate enough to get a good paying union iob.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It would be an over-simplification to say that American elites of both major parties do not give a rat's butt about the average American's life or well-being, but not much of an over-simplification.

Basically, your leaders are beholden to super-rich billionaires and large corporations, both of which are drunk on asinine political and economic ideologies that absolve them of taking any meaningful social responsibility. So long as Wall Street is doing well, almost no one among the elites cares what happens to you.

The post-World War II social contract that brought about the largest and most prosperous middle class in world history began dying with Jimmy Carter, was kicked to shreds by Ronald Reagan, and buried by the presidents of both parties that came after Reagan.

America's elites feel they owe you nothing, and that your only value and worth in this world is to consume their products and services in order to make them even wealthier than they are. You're not a citizen to them, you're a consumer. They're not in this world with you, they're in this world against you.

So long as you are fighting among yourselves, and not uniting to fight them, you're getting what you deserve.

Just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.

Dang. Can't argue with that one. Your speaking to the choir here.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It is my opinion they all love Trump, and he is such an elite doll that he's the ugly ducking who made Biden look like a golden goose.

Biden is a golden goose. All the eggs are his and he's not sharing any of it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Me, I vote progressive these days because they're the only faction of the Democratic Party willing to take on the elites and demand a restoration of social and economic sanity in this country. But if I was inclined to more conservative politics, I would vote for the populist platform Trump ran on in 2016 (and then abandoned when he caved to the establishment) minus the racism, xenophobia, nationalism, and misogyny. There's a lot to be said for right-wing populism, and it's far more compatible with left-wing progressive politics than most people realize.

Hmm...interesting take.
Looking from afar, the Dems biggest problem is that they've become too driven by ideologies, and aren't focused enough on simple, pragmatic concepts that effect most Americans (imho).

Jobs, Health and Education.

Stick to those, and I think they'll get much more traction. Right now...rightly or wrongly...there are whole swathes of working class people with middle class aspirations who think the Republicans better represent their needs.

I think both sides are doing that poorly, incidentally (as per your OP) but nationalist messaging around jobs is a pretty simple statement. 'we'll keep jobs here...America first'.

Writing that off as xenophobic would be to miss the point, I think.

 

[Watchmen]

Me, I vote progressive these days because they're the only faction of the Democratic Party willing to take on the elites and demand a restoration of social and economic sanity in this country. But if I was inclined to more conservative politics, I would vote for the populist platform Trump ran on in 2016 (and then abandoned when he caved to the establishment) minus the racism, xenophobia, nationalism, and misogyny. There's a lot to be said for right-wing populism, and it's far more compatible with left-wing progressive politics than most people realize.

Quit making sense. It doesn’t jive with my opinion of you and your positions.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That's right. So what blame super-rich billionaires and large corporations?
Are some people just jealous because they aren't rich?

I think its more over the unsatiatble greed that never goes away and the damage that type of greed causes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where to begin? Well first, I appreciate your interest. You and I have something in common. I spent most of my life uninterested in politics, economics, and most social issues. Only got really interested a couple decades ago, and that's when I began buying books and magazines, subscribing to newspapers, and in general gradually and sometimes painfully educating myself on what has been going on. So, we have that much in common.

Well, I appreciate your sharing your ideas, Obviously you are far ahead of me, because I only got interested a few months ago, and what brought on my interest were the issues with Covid-19 and the U.S. election. Also, to be honest, I am tired of talking about God so now I am trying to look at the practical aspects of religion and how they can improve the world situation.

I believe economic problems are related to spiritual problems. It has worsened in the last four decades because the onset of more technology had caused materialism has run rampant. It is not just a problem with the super rich. The whole human race has change and become less selfish and materialistic and more noble and spiritual before these economic systems can change for the better. Economic and political systems need to be overhauled and that is what I already see happening all over the world, as I posted to PureX earlier today: #49 Trailblazer, Today at 12:35 PM

As I see it, the core problem is the vast and growing gap between 'the richest and the rest'. In my opinion, it amounts to a grave threat to our democracy -- and indeed, it has been undermining it for at least 40 years. I wouldn't mind at all someone having 100 billion dollars and me having 100 dollars were it not for the fact the billionaire is highly likely to use some of that money to, in effect, buy my government, and shape its laws, regulations, and policies to favor them -- often at my expense.

Baha'is believe that the solutions to these economic problems are embedded in the teachings of Baha'u'llah.
Below are some articles from Baha'iTeachings.org that are pertinent to the subject:

Making Economics Serve Humanity
Eliminating the Extremes of Wealth and Poverty
Spirituality: The Surprising Solution to Our Economic Problems
Will it Take a Pandemic to Make the World Economy Humane?​

Having said that, there is no one solution to the problem. If and when the problem is solved, it will be by a combination of things, rather than by any one thing. Moreover, the 'solution' will only be temporary -- the battle is ongoing and will never end.

Why do you think that a solution would only be temporary? I believe there are permanent solutions to these problems, but it won't be solved overnight. It will require a lot of people working together.

So of the hundreds of things that could be done to improve the situation, here are three that would most likely help....

Universal health care -- this would have numerous benefits, such as allow small business people to compete on a more level playing field with large corporations and billionaires for talented workers. Right now, small business people often cannot afford to provide health insurance to their people, consequently, they have a hard time attracting superior talent. There are many other benefits to UHC that would help close the gap between the richest and the rest.

Ample daycare -- Poorer families with small children find it exceedingly difficult to get ahead when one parent's ability to work for an income is constrained by the necessity of looking after the kid or kids.

Universal Basic Income -- This is coming sooner or later to every industrialized nation on earth, though America will most likely be among the last to adopt it. The reason is that robots and artificial intelligences are replacing workers at accelerating rates. Within 20 years, most estimates place unemployment at or near Great Depression levels, no matter what else happens. Basically, a robot will be doing the job rather than a human. Apparently, the way out is some kind of universal basic income that was high enough people would not starve to death, could keep a roof over their heads, and clothes on their back, but not so high as to be unsustainable. Bill Gates has recommended taxing robots to pay for it. I think that's a good idea. A UBI would lessen the gap between the richest and the rest in several ways.

So -- that's three "solutions". There are hundreds, great and small. But they need to be implemented. And so far, not much is being done.

I think those are a good place to start and they are in keeping with reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty. Universal compulsory education is one of the primary teachings of the Baha’i Faith. The Baha’i teachings say that everyone should have a trade or profession and earn a livelihood. If there was universal education I see no reason why anyone would have to be unemployed; although there will always be stratified society with the more educated having more income, at least there would be nobody who lacked the essentials for living a happy healthy life.