How can 'Christians' be so divided?

[Quiddity]

Great point! Think of the Bible as a Letter from god. Why would he want us to see so many different interpretations of the same letter?

I wasn't necessarily saying interpretations, but teachings. You can get valid interpretations from just one verse. But what I believe shouldn't happen is getting contradicting teachings.

~Victor

 

[Abram]

Christianity is no more likely to become unified than "sports fans" are likely to be unified. To illustrate . . . . a die hard Yankee fan and a die hard Red Sox fan, are both, to an outside observer, "sports fans" but they are never going to be unified in the sense that you are requesting.

There was at one time a unification of the church in the manor in which I think you are hoping for. It was the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages, also known as the Dark Ages. It was also in the Caliphate of the Ottoman Empire. It was, on a smaller scale, in the high preists of the Inca's whose human sacrifices caused the streets to flow with blood.

Since the age of the enlightenment, however, theocracy has been absent in western civilization, largely. This is a result of freethinking, applying reason and science, and the result of the masses being able to read. Uniting all Christians under one church is going to be a pretty tall order in this day and age.

Are you willing to forego your particular brand of Christianity in favor of Catholocism? Or LDS? Or Snake Handling, or what-have-you? If you were to unite all Christians, what would be your core doctrine? Which version of the Bible would you use? Would your God be a vengeful, jealous, Old Testament style of God? Or a loving, all inclusive, Jesus-style God?

It is these and literally thousands of other questions like these that makes overall Christian unity an impossibility. When you hold the keys to the gates of heaven, you have power over others. Unless there is some disagreement with the established view of those holding the keys, then there is not going to be any room for future key-holders to pop up. And make no mistake, there is strong gain to be had, by holding the keys to heaven.

B.

:clap that was awesome... frubal 4U

 

[jonny]

I got to thinking of how we Christians must look to others today...we have so many differences within what we call Christians...How do you suppose we look to those who don't understand Christianity? Well??? How can we explain a faith that is so wonderful with promise when we have so much that confuses those we'd like to win for Christ??? I'd like to get some input from other 'Christians' on this subject.
Thanks,
Hugs to all,
FTH:162:

I think Christians are too worried about being right and not worried enough about doing what's right.

 

[Abram]

I think Christians are too worried about being right and not worried enough about doing what's right.

Amen brotha... :clap

 

[Searcher of Light]

Christianity and religion in general will always be divided because of one key element: people.
People vary in ways of thinking and opinions therefore religion will vary as well. Christianity cannot be united completely as long as opinion and ways of thought are held as doctrine. And since that is how religion is formed religion will always be divided. However, some common ground is possible.

 

[searcher63]

I got to thinking of how we Christians must look to others today...we have so many differences within what we call Christians...How do you suppose we look to those who don't understand Christianity? Well??? How can we explain a faith that is so wonderful with promise when we have so much that confuses those we'd like to win for Christ??? I'd like to get some input from other 'Christians' on this subject.
Thanks,
Hugs to all,
FTH:162:

Isn't that what Satan wants? The old Military Adage Applies...divide and conquer! Confuse people and He wins..How?..If people get confused enough they lose faith..throw up their hands...and stop pursuing Truth, and start pursuing their own desires.

 

[opensoul7]

Christianity has been divided since the begining .It did not consolidate until 325 A.D under the guidance of constantine at the council of nicaea. There were and always will be a variety of beliefs and ideas about Jesus. The gospels were not written until 60 -100 + years after the life of Jesus , and the canonical new testament was not put together until the council of Nicaea 325 years after the death of Jesus. They was once alot of writing about Jesus and alot of arguing about who he was, was he god , did he live or was he spirit only , ect,ect. The gnostic texts such as the Nag hammadi scrolls have given insight into some of those different points of views. Much of the varied writtings were destroyed by the church (Catholic)and a whole group of Christians were eradicated by the church during the Albigensian crusade.I think that the devil is in the details, too many people argue and kill over the small differences that will always be there , verses finding the connections and teachings that they all agree on .

 

[dawny0826]

We need to embrace the teachings of The Bible . . . we need to elevate our theology . . . we need that theological knowledge to breed love for the poor and dying . . . we need some consensus on what the bible clearly teaches and what clearly deems as unorthodox . . . but there are so many wolves in sheeps clothing and now its high time that Godly shepards remove the wolves from the sheep herd.

Very well put.

 

[jonny]

We need to embrace the teachings of The Bible . . . we need to elevate our theology . . . we need that theological knowledge to breed love for the poor and dying . . . we need some consensus on what the bible clearly teaches and what clearly deems as unorthodox . . . but there are so many wolves in sheeps clothing and now its high time that Godly shepards remove the wolves from the sheep herd.

Embracing the teachings of the Bible doesn't work. That's what got Christians where they are today. Do you think you will find a Christian who doesn't believe they are following the Bible? You seem to want to heal the divide with more councils and creeds. Instead of repairing the divide, you want to clearly define Christianity to exclude those who disagree with you. Good luck with that.

Christians need to focus on embracing the teachings of Christ - love God and love your neighbor. While Paul's teachings may be left up to various interpretations, Christ's teachings are clear. Love will heal the divide - not bible bashing.

Disagreements over doctrinal issues are not the divide that is hurting Christianity. It's the hate that is taught over the pulpits and in the classrooms of our "Christian" churches. Like I said, worry about doing right, not so much about being right.

 

[benjosh]

The foundation of Christ's church is revelation. Jesus told Peter that revelation from the Father is the Rock of the church. The revelation is that Jesus is the Christ (the annointed one, Messiah), the son of the living God.


17 And Simon Peter answered
and said, Thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God.
18 And Jesus answered and said
unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
Bar-jona; for flesh and blood hath
not revealed this unto thee, but
my Father who is in heaven.


Those who do not know the difference between interpretation and revelation are not upon the Rock of the Christ anointing.

Churches are divided because interpretation is King. Millions of us call ourselves followers of Christ when we are actually a strange mixture of actual revelation while on some things we are followers of teachers with interpretations.

We look to others for interpretations. The more respected they are in a church hierarchy the more likely we are to accept their experience as a final answer. But their experience (as in, putting in their time into the organization)
is less likely to be revelation than our own experience, because we leave some room for experimentation.

As Martin Luther King said, churches and Christians are supposed to be thermostats not thermometers. We should be warming the culture rather than be warmed by its ways. The churches reflect the culture more than shining light into it.

This does not mean I am going to study Martin Luther King's religion and read everything he said. That statement found in his Letter From the Birmingham Jail addressed the questions of what the churches do (in this case re: civil rights) It has nothing to do with King's interpretation of scripture. What it does suggest is that he had revelation. If you understand what he meant about thermostats and thermometers; you have just received revelation. You have not joined a church or taken a theology class. You have received revelation because of the Holy Spirit.

The antidote to division is the unity that comes from revelation of Jesus Christ through the Father, via the Holy Spirit.

Most churches have interpreted the Father and his role out of their religion. He reveals the Son through the Holy Spirit.

You can believe that this is my interpretation or you can seek revelation on what I just shared.

BenJosh

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The foundation of Christ's church is revelation.

17 And Simon Peter answered
and said, Thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God.
18 And Jesus answered and said
unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
Bar-jona; for flesh and blood hath
not revealed this unto thee, but
my Father who is in heaven.


Those who do not know the difference between interpretation and revelation are not upon the Rock of the Christ anointing.

Revelation is communication, and communication must be interpreted. Because God is metaphysical, we cannot reach God through science or philosophy or any other tool by which we interpret nature. God had to enter nature and participate with nature (that is, humanity) in a unique and special way. Because we cannot rationally (scientifically or philosophically) conclude that Jesus is the Christ by interpreting this passage, God must reveal it to each of us personally. Such a conclusion is beyond reason, principally because we cannot even hold that God exists as a premise in our logic for interpreting the text.

The Bible is a record of God's communication (so some Christians confess). This record has entered into nature and is reviewable by every tool that humanity possesses. We can apply social scientific models, linguistic tools, and every form of applicable criticism to understand what the text says.

 

[benjosh]

Revelation is communication, and communication must be interpreted. Because God is metaphysical, we cannot reach God through science or philosophy or any other tool by which we interpret nature. God had to enter nature and participate with nature (that is, humanity) in a unique and special way. Because we cannot rationally (scientifically or philosophically) conclude that Jesus is the Christ by interpreting this passage, God must reveal it to each of us personally.

Is this quote above your restating my words in yourown words? And is the following the conclusion you come to?

Such a conclusion is beyond reason, principally because we cannot even hold that God exists as a premise in our logic for interpreting the text.

In other words are you stating that what I said was beyond reason?

please clarify.

BenJosh

 

[michel]

I got to thinking of how we Christians must look to others today...we have so many differences within what we call Christians...How do you suppose we look to those who don't understand Christianity? Well??? How can we explain a faith that is so wonderful with promise when we have so much that confuses those we'd like to win for Christ??? I'd like to get some input from other 'Christians' on this subject.
Thanks,
Hugs to all,
FTH:162:

You know, Judi, you seem to have unfortunately proved the O.P on the purpose of this thread, here we are, with pages and pages of he said "......" "No he didn't he meant....".

How sad.

 

[Mike182]

im not sure about this over in America, but here in England when that horrid tsunami struck, all the churches pulled together to organise a relief and charity aid

were devided on the fine detail, and that causes us to go to seperate places inour towns to worship, but on the general things, we have no problem agreeing and co-operating

 

[fromthe heart]

You know, Judi, you seem to have unfortunately proved the O.P on the purpose of this thread, here we are, with pages and pages of he said "......" "No he didn't he meant....".

How sad.

No... not sad Mich...it just proved a point! LOOK at all the opinions on just that topic...does anyone KNOW the truth in how fast you drive in a speed limit of 55MPH? Bet all the theologians can't keep it on 55 either. You'd think with all the religious politics some of these top guys would just look at what God's word says and come to an agreement and know that when God says No it's No...I have a problem with what part of 'thou shalt not' folks don't get??? We really need a revelation of the word of God and that would be taking the words to mean what they said when Jesus WASN'T speaking in parable. He said LOVE your enemies...so hey you Baptists,Catholics,LDS,Muslims,ATHEISTS...WE LOVE YOU!!!(whew,I'm one of those too)...Love brings about great understanding within the bounds of misunderstanding. I don't think ANYONE wants to believe in Hell...but yet there it is right in God's word! It's all as plain as it can get on wrong behavior...but yet some want to call evil doings good to just 'get along' with others...I feel we should get along and if we disagree with someone we should agree to disagree or just shut up and leave them alone if they won't listen to the words God has given us as truth(all you Christians out there)...So many 'Christians' beat a dead horse and make we Christians look like a divided lot that can't dig ourselves out of a one inch hole. ALL we HAVE to do is LEARN what is in GOD'S WORD...it's that simple...we don't have to do anything else to learn all the truths of the whole entire world!!!

If you agree say "AMEN!!!" if you don't that's ok too...afterall we are ALL God's children..some are just on the wrong path and are lost in their thinking...if we don't reach them at least we can say we tried...let the rest to God...if what you believe is written in the WORD of God...there's a good bet you got it right...but if you twist some passage to fit your needs well guess what...you got it wrong...if someone wants to argue...well it takes 2 to argue...if the Christian just states the scriptural truth and doesn't add or take from it and someone doesn't want to 'try' to see the point we are NOT obliged to force anything on anyone...so just shut up!!! I can't think of anyone over the last year that I've met on this site that I sincerely don't care about...you can call me a fanatic, you can say I'm believing the biggest lie ever told,you can say..gee I don't think I like her...it's ok!!! I don't care...what I care about is that not one of you, IF my GOD does turn out to be the true GOD(which I believe with all my heart), will spend eternity in the eternal lake of fire because you trusted in something such as yourself,someone's idea of the truth as not stated in the Holy Scriptures, or some idea bent on sending your soul to hell. TRY every works out there and when it doesn't match what God's word has to say in my personal opinion it's gonna be wrong. Each and everyone of you are worth so much more than spending eternity in hell for disbelief,or by following misconceptions.:149:

This I say as respectfully as I possibly know how, I apoligize for my frankness to those who chose to not believe ...it's ok to get mad at me cuz you see I don't care if you like me or hate me...I love you all!!!
God be with you all!!!
Totally FROM THE HEART

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

From the Heart,

That sounds just fine in theory, but when you try to apply it, it becomes an effort in impossibility. It is quite clear even just from the small fraction of the overall human community that inhabits RF, that there is not going to be any real agreements on these matters of faith.

I will agree with you that Jesus said to love everybody. However, in the same book that talks of Jesus' loving message, there is direct orders to stone homosexuals to death.

Right there, we have a problem from the very source of your religion. You say, lets all follow the Bible. OK, well, which parts? The parts that tell us to love everyone, or the parts that say to stone homosexuals to death?

There is absolutely no way that there is going to be mass agreement across the board on how to interpret the Bible. The Bible is so full of contradictions, retractions, etc. . . that it is quite easy for anyone to find something in the Bible to justify the behavior of their choice.

If I want to go out and murder gays, then I can do it, and find solace in the Bible saying it is OK to do that. If I want to go around preaching love and tolerance for everyone, then I can find Biblical passages to justify that as well. You see how we are going to have a problem here?

B.

 

[Quiddity]

From the Heart,

That sounds just fine in theory, but when you try to apply it, it becomes an effort in impossibility. It is quite clear even just from the small fraction of the overall human community that inhabits RF, that there is not going to be any real agreements on these matters of faith.

I will agree with you that Jesus said to love everybody. However, in the same book that talks of Jesus' loving message, there is direct orders to stone homosexuals to death.

Right there, we have a problem from the very source of your religion. You say, lets all follow the Bible. OK, well, which parts? The parts that tell us to love everyone, or the parts that say to stone homosexuals to death?

There is absolutely no way that there is going to be mass agreement across the board on how to interpret the Bible. The Bible is so full of contradictions, retractions, etc. . . that it is quite easy for anyone to find something in the Bible to justify the behavior of their choice.

If I want to go out and murder gays, then I can do it, and find solace in the Bible saying it is OK to do that. If I want to go around preaching love and tolerance for everyone, then I can find Biblical passages to justify that as well. You see how we are going to have a problem here?

B.

I suppose a real solution with real people is out of the question. Much easier to interpret things like gay bashing then to ask any serious question like "what do you understand by this?". Maybe it's too much work for you.

~Victor

 

[fromthe heart]

From the Heart,

That sounds just fine in theory, but when you try to apply it, it becomes an effort in impossibility. It is quite clear even just from the small fraction of the overall human community that inhabits RF, that there is not going to be any real agreements on these matters of faith.

I will agree with you that Jesus said to love everybody. However, in the same book that talks of Jesus' loving message, there is direct orders to stone homosexuals to death.

Right there, we have a problem from the very source of your religion. You say, lets all follow the Bible. OK, well, which parts? The parts that tell us to love everyone, or the parts that say to stone homosexuals to death?

There is absolutely no way that there is going to be mass agreement across the board on how to interpret the Bible. The Bible is so full of contradictions, retractions, etc. . . that it is quite easy for anyone to find something in the Bible to justify the behavior of their choice.

If I want to go out and murder gays, then I can do it, and find solace in the Bible saying it is OK to do that. If I want to go around preaching love and tolerance for everyone, then I can find Biblical passages to justify that as well. You see how we are going to have a problem here?

B.

BUT you dropped the key my friend...Jesus said "LET HIM WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE"...if you want to stone a homosexual...you better be totally without sin...in other words...God is the only one who CAN cast that stone!!!

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

I suppose a real solution with real people is out of the question. Much easier to interpret things like gay bashing then to ask any serious question like "what do you understand by this?". Maybe it's too much work for you.

~Victor

Victor,

I am afraid you lost me on this one. But it is not long after new years and I have consumed several bottles of champagne over the weekend, so maybe it is me. But could you explain what you are trying to get at here?

B.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

BUT you dropped the key my friend...Jesus said "LET HIM WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE"...if you want to stone a homosexual...you better be totally without sin...in other words...God is the only one who CAN cast that stone!!!

Lets be very clear. I don't think anyone needs to be stoning homosexuals, no matter how "without sin" that individual may be. My point is that you want all Christians to be united, but united under what credo? It appears to me that you want all Christians to unite under your interpretation of the Bible.

I think this is about as likely as all Christians all of a sudden deciding to be Roman Catholic (like my wife is) or everyone deciding to be LDS (as several of my buddies from Law School are). There is not going to be any consensus, if there was, Martin Luther would never have tacked his theses (sp?) to the wall, and there would only be one Church.

B.