How can Christians not condemn homosexual behavior?

[Desfox]

I just said that your allegation of "christians believe x" was wrong because "christians" is SO wide.

Even Christian atheists exist.

Ultimately, you only have to believe you are following _Jesus´s teachings to be a christian. Even when your interpretations vary wildly form othe rpeople´s, and if you dont share materials other people have added it on.

Actually, the problem was your first assumption: the second I said "by paul, not Jesus" you immidiately taugth I wasn´t christian? that is in my view (and for another topoc ) exactly what is wrong with christianity from times to time. I say not take Paul´s words as Christs words and I am not a christian?

Curious curious stuff

Hey, you didn't give me much to work with! You username tells me nothing, neither does your religion, or your title, or even your signature! You went complete stealth on me!

What was my first assumption?

I would be careful on the whole "if you believe in Jesus' teachings" it doesn't matter. Not because this isn't true, but for example, Jesus clearly teaches about God (I don't know, I suppose you could disagree with me their) so you can't really be an atheist Christian, because then you are contradicting yourself.

Edit: I think I see what my first assumption was. So i can fix that with the defining words like "majority" or Orthodox" right?

 

[Me Myself]

Posibly

(/end of hijacking the thread >_>)

 

[Desfox]

Posibly

(/end of hijacking the thread >_>)

I think we may have killed, but I'll stop too just to make sure :run:

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Well, while it is true the bible is fairly consistent (if not uniform) in its condemnation of homosexuality, there is not a single comment on homosexuality or homosexuals explicitly by Jesus, therefore for a Christian who emphasises the centrality of the revelation imparted by Jesus Christ himself (as opposed to the teachings of those who preceded or succeeded him) his teachings of loving one another could take precedence without being theologically problematic, therefore for some individuals whom place greater emphasis on the specific teachings of Christ (as opposed to the related teachings) there is no problem with homosexuality.

 

[waitasec]

Just want to say that homosexuality in only a part of this.
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people." This is a description of completely wicked and "godless" people.

If you are only drawing "gays" out of this you are not interpreting the verse right (just like Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed just because of the homosexual relations)

does that mean godlessness = wicked?
wicked = homosexuality?

i know a lot of godless people that are not by any means wicked
and i know wicked people that are not homosexuals.

 

[Desfox]

Well, while it is true the bible is fairly consistent (if not uniform) in its condemnation of homosexuality, there is not a single comment on homosexuality or homosexuals explicitly by Jesus, therefore for a Christian who emphasises the centrality of the revelation imparted by Jesus Christ himself (as opposed to the teachings of those who preceded or succeeded him) his teachings of loving one another could take precedence without being theologically problematic, therefore for some individuals whom place greater emphasis on the specific teachings of Christ (as opposed to the related teachings) there is no problem with homosexuality.

The question all depends on what is really "loving one another"

For example, are two people getting together to support each other and carry out a destructive lifestyle that has physical/emotional/psychological dangers actually "loving one another"? Or is letting two people carry on that lifestyle without telling them they should reconsider "loving one another"

So in this case, you can still build a case, but you must base it more off of studies, lifestyle effects, statistics, etc. and decide whether homosexuality is really a life style that should be supported.

I do see some of the validity of this argument, but homosexuality may not be truly" loving."


@waitasec

"[does that mean godlessness = wicked?
wicked = homosexuality?]"

godlessness is generally associated with wicked(In terms of use in Bible), it is not universal.
homosexuality=sin
All people who sin are not homosexuals.

So yes, your general observations are correct.

Edit: Its not dead

 

[waitasec]

godlessness is generally associated with wicked(In terms of use in Bible),

what does that mean, that it doesn't really count?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

The question all depends on what is really "loving one another"

For example, are two people getting together to support each other and carry out a destructive lifestyle that has physical/emotional/psychological dangers actually "loving one another"? Or is letting two people carry on that lifestyle without telling them they should reconsider "loving one another"

So in this case, you can still build a case, but you must base it more off of studies, lifestyle effects, statistics, etc. and decide whether homosexuality is really a life style that should be supported.

I do see some of the validity of this argument, but homosexuality may not be truly" loving."

I would point out the same concerns exist for heterosexual unions and there is evidence to suggest that homosexual unions may be less likely (they still happen) to include things like DV. So in that case if we were to use the approach you have suggested it would actually be the heterosexual unions we would have to query about whether or not heterosexuality 'is really a life style that should be supported' or that it 'may not be truly loving.'

And no I am neither gay nor bi (I am actually slightly homophobic)

 

[waitasec]

i missed this....

Or is letting two people carry on that lifestyle without telling them they should reconsider "loving one another"

tell me where and how would you go about preventing heterosexual couples from getting married because of their destructive lifestyle?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

i missed this....



tell me where and how would you go about preventing heterosexual couples from getting married because of their destructive lifestyle?

All straights do is breed when they get together. With overpopulation being a real issue, heterosexuality is harmful to our planet, and the closer we get to same sex unions and using in vitro fertilization for propagating the species, the better. That way we know children are TRULY wanted.

.

.

.

I'm kidding by the way. But i hope straights understand what it feels like to be considered a threat to society just because of your sexuality. Now consider that view being held by powerful people in your government, your voting bloc, your family.

Uncomfortable yet?

 

[jtartar]

In both the Old and New Testaments homosexuality is clearly condemned. So, if a Christian believes in the correctness of the the Bible I fail to see how they can condone or support homosexual behavior, even if they believe the homosexual disposition arises as naturally as the heterosexual disposition. Not that I'm not thankful for those who renounce or simply ignore these Biblical positions, but this picking and choosing in the Bible appears to be less than honest. So while I appreciate the many Christians who don't adhere to the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality, I have to wonder how they explain/rationalize it away.

Anyone care to take a stab at answering?

Skwim,
Since the Bible is the only authority for a true Christian, a lack of observing what it says cannot be rationalized away. Maybe a person is not a Chrtistian when he accepts homosexual as acceptable conduct. Maybe a person who goes directly against Bible teachings has removed his name from the Book of Life, if he was ever in it.
The problem of picking out one wrong action is also not according to the Bible, since the Bible puts many things in the same category as being of the third sex. Immorality of many kinds the Bible mentions and even says they will NOT be in God's Kingdom, Rom 24-32, 1Cor 6:9-11, Eph 5:3-6, Col 3:5-10, 1Tim 1:7-10, Rev 20:15, Rev 21:8.
In the Hebrew Scriptures we see clearly what God's feeling's about homosexuality are, Lev 18:22, 20:13. It is telling to note that God never changes, Mal 3:6.
If any person truely wants to become a Christian, God will help that person to overcome any actions that are displeasing to HIM. The Bible tells us that God's word is ALIVE and POWERFUL, Heb 4:12,13. God tells us to put off the old personality and put on a new one, Eph 4:22-24, Rom 12:2.
The Bible tells us that many of the early disciples did many bad practices, but by trying to please God they were washed clean, 1Cor 6:11.

 

[beerisit]

Skwim,
Since the Bible is the only authority for a true Christian, a lack of observing what it says cannot be rationalized away. Maybe a person is not a Chrtistian when he accepts homosexual as acceptable conduct. Maybe a person who goes directly against Bible teachings has removed his name from the Book of Life, if he was ever in it.
The problem of picking out one wrong action is also not according to the Bible, since the Bible puts many things in the same category as being of the third sex. Immorality of many kinds the Bible mentions and even says they will NOT be in God's Kingdom, Rom 24-32, 1Cor 6:9-11, Eph 5:3-6, Col 3:5-10, 1Tim 1:7-10, Rev 20:15, Rev 21:8.
In the Hebrew Scriptures we see clearly what God's feeling's about homosexuality are, Lev 18:22, 20:13. It is telling to note that God never changes, Mal 3:6.
If any person truely wants to become a Christian, God will help that person to overcome any actions that are displeasing to HIM. The Bible tells us that God's word is ALIVE and POWERFUL, Heb 4:12,13. God tells us to put off the old personality and put on a new one, Eph 4:22-24, Rom 12:2.
The Bible tells us that many of the early disciples did many bad practices, but by trying to please God they were washed clean, 1Cor 6:11.

Wanna bet?

 

[Kathryn]

Ahhh, merlot, one of my favorites.

That and a good gewürztraminer

Excellent choice!

I assume then you also believe homosexual behavior is wrong, but that you stop short of following the Biblical condemnation of it; you don't condemn homosexuality.

It's just as wrong as any other sex outside of marriage - no more and no less.

Is this respect of them in spite of their homosexuality? That you can respect someone who knowingly participates in an activity condemned by your god? Not to put words in your mouth, but if this is so then I see it as no different than respecting the prostitute, the thief, or the blasphemer. Or Is there a difference I'm not keying in on?

No difference - and no difference from respecting any other flawed human being, including myself.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That includes me.

She who is not guilty can cast the first stone.

 

[beerisit]

Ahhh, merlot, one of my favorites.

That and a good gewürztraminer

Sorry to be a pooty parper but merlot is the red wine drunk by non red wine drinkers. Shiraz, Durif, Cab Sav are red wines. Just sayin'

 

[beerisit]

It's just as wrong as any other sex outside of marriage - no more and no less.

Now why would sex outside marriage be wrong, if a man made religion didn't claim that a man made ceremony was the only way to have sex?
Because that is what you are claiming, a man made ceremony is the only justification for sexul relations, sorry I don't see it.

 

[Road Warrior]

Well your first point is a disagreement on the Bible, not whether the Bible condemns homosexuality. The Bible is God's words according to Christians (every book in it).

Could you please explain why in your second point?

Sorry, but I don't engage in "walls of text" posts, but will answer these two.

Not all Christians take the Bible literally "every book of it". Many, like myself, recognize the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD under Constantine and other similar meetings of Bishops and church officials told followers what to believe and how to believe. Several of their actions were more in line with current political goals than the words of Jesus the Christ.

Take for example the deliberate misconstruing of the prostitute Jesus saves from stoning and Mary Magdalene as part of an effort to ensure male dominance of the Church. Mary Magdalene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let me ask you this; is it more important to follow the words of Jesus or of Paul?

 

[sojourner]

In both the Old and New Testaments homosexuality is clearly condemned. So, if a Christian believes in the correctness of the the Bible I fail to see how they can condone or support homosexual behavior, even if they believe the homosexual disposition arises as naturally as the heterosexual disposition. Not that I'm not thankful for those who renounce or simply ignore these Biblical positions, but this picking and choosing in the Bible appears to be less than honest. So while I appreciate the many Christians who don't adhere to the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality, I have to wonder how they explain/rationalize it away.

Anyone care to take a stab at answering?

Homosexuality is in no way "clearly condemned." The biblical authors had no concept of sexual orientation. What they were referencing had to do with two things:

Sexual acts they considered to be unnatural -- acts which have subsequently been found to be completely normal, for folks who are oriented that way.

shame and honor were imbodied in sexual identity: honor was a "male" thing, and shame was a "female" thing. For a man to "take it like a woman" was for a man to embody shame, rather than honor.

Christians can comfortably not condemn homosexuality, since it is not addressed in the bible, and since, in our culture, shame and honor are not sexually embodied.

 

[Jainarayan]

Romans 1:26-27
New International Version (NIV)
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:8-11
New International Version (NIV)
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.


There you have it, God against homosexuality in the new testament.

It is important that it is in the new testament because it is the "new covenant"
established by Jesus' sacrifice.

This is important, because if it truly was only contained in the Old Testament, I would not say that Christians can have a clear Biblical stance

(I just copied and pasted this from this topic, seems to apply to above's question, this is my post)
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-question-concerning-views-homosexuality.html

Edit: However, the New Testament says nothing about putting homosexuals to death. So while Christians should point out to the world that homosexuality is wrong, they shouldn't be trying to institute vigilante law to kill them, or make governmental laws. Basically, a Christian never has the right to kill a person just because they are a homosexual.

Paul is not God. Paul never even met Jesus. Christianity is not Christianity, it is Paulism. Moreover, the phrases Paul used in the original Greek were oddball even for those days, i.e., people didn't understand him then.

Jesus never addressed sexuality, except for adultery, which is a cause of hurt to someone. All other sexual offenses that involve hurt (rape, child molestation) come under "do unto others... " and his non-violence. Even lust comes under hurt, because you are disrespecting the person you lust for.

 

[Jainarayan]

Christians believe the entire Bible is God's word, every single book by every single author(including Paul).

Not all Christians. Translations and versions of the bible are often totally different.

 

[Skwim]

Sorry to be a pooty parper but merlot is the red wine drunk by non red wine drinkers. Shiraz, Durif, Cab Sav are red wines. Just sayin'

Spoken like a true Crane, Fraiser or Niles. Take your pick.