And one of the rules appears to be that unconditional love cannot be conditional. In other words: God cannot by his own rules unconditionally love people and then send some of them to hell for their failure to meet a condition of his love.
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How Can God's Love Be Unconditional?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
And one of the rules appears to be that unconditional love cannot be conditional. In other words: God cannot by his own rules unconditionally love people and then send some of them to hell for their failure to meet a condition of his love.
McBell
Unbound
let us assume for a second that I do not find this to be nothing more than a line of BS used to ratify ones own belief...
What makes you think that you have an understanding of the rules?
I refuse to play any game where one cannot be sure of the rules.
His kindness?
My oh my, the straws you grasp at.
I am sinless.
For to sin is nothing more than to go against the will/wishes of your chosen deity.
I have not chosen a deity, therefore I do not sin.
Perhaps it is not God who is need of the convincing?
As a human being and as a mother......even if my own children were to spit at me, throw dirt at me, curse my name, and run away from home to ruin their lives, if I ever heard them screaming in pain from being tortured I could never sit by idly and feel that "justice" has been served.
I would run to them and do what I could to help them. I love them unconditionally.
I don't have a problem with seeing my kids shed a few temporary tears because of natural consequences (like scolding, taking away priviledges, etc.) for bad behavior in our house, but that's much different than a punishment that is more like strapping them to their beds and setting them on fire.
And again, I am a mere human. Is God's capacity for love more or less than my own?
Something to think about, hmmmmm?
Perhaps, tom, but I can only offer up this contemplation from my own temporal experiences.
A choice to believe as a prerequisite for escaping eternal torture? I know there were times when I hated my parents so much that I wished that I were adopted and that they were not the ones who brought me into this world.
Would that have given them enough justification to strap me to a bed and set me on fire because I hated them and rejected them? *for the record, I don't feel that way now toward my mom and dad, and they're imperfect themselves*
I'm offering up this perspective because even though not all of us have been parents, all of us have been children.
tomspug
Absorbant
Well, I would think that by now people might understand that my perspective of eternity is a little different than the hellfire and brimstone that so many people unfairly associate with the Christian perspective.
I believe that God is love, and that if he is presenting a choice to us, it is an undeniably fair choice. Not one of us will be unfairly eternally separated from God. It will be our choice... CLEARLY our choice. I think that's Biblical too. What's not Biblical is the cut-and-dry approach where people think that THEY are the judge and not God. They read "no one comes to the Father but through me" and think, "well, now I have the ability to tell whether or not people are saved". See the gap in logic between those two points?
I believe that God is love, and that if he is presenting a choice to us, it is an undeniably fair choice. Not one of us will be unfairly eternally separated from God. It will be our choice... CLEARLY our choice. I think that's Biblical too. What's not Biblical is the cut-and-dry approach where people think that THEY are the judge and not God. They read "no one comes to the Father but through me" and think, "well, now I have the ability to tell whether or not people are saved". See the gap in logic between those two points?
Obviously, love, but your perspective isn't under scrutiny here as I understand it. What is under scrutiny is the false dilemma posed by well-meaning folks who present this extreme "either/or" scenario of acceptance of doctrine concerning God's love against eternal torture in hell.
Oh I agree that we all make our choices, but what causes a person to choose one way or another? Is it a degree of delusion and mental clarity? Is it previous disheartening experience with certain religious doctrine in question? There are other factors to consider (one that I assume God would consider as well in this scenario) rather than the cut-and-dry approach that you alluded to.......it isn't as easy for many many people as the "you're either with me or against me" false dichotomy.
Actually, I personally don't think it's that easy for anybody because of our very nature of the human condition.
The issue, however, has nothing to do with whether eternal separation from god's love is fair or not.
Kcnorwood
Well-Known Member
Heneni
Miss Independent
Since I believe that earth is hell, god has sent us all here. Hence we are all objects of his wrath. And we will keep on returning to earth until he has mercy on us. The issue is to leave this earth, and not come back here but to return to the glorious state we had before the foundations of this earth were laid. Therefore 'today is the day of salvation' make the most of it!
I suppose it is natural for someone to wonder how a God that calls himself love, can send some to hell...only until you realise your in it already, and your focus should be to not come back here. God give us all the opportunity to return to glory, that is called unconditional love. But he wont force himself on you! You are not here because God did something wrong, you are here because you chose to seperate yourself from God. All that deliberately seperates itself from god will ultimately suffer, just as a person will suffocate when they dont have a source of air. Without God, the source and sustainer of LIFE, it is not possible to have ETERNAL life. Life without God is not called life is is called survival.
All things started with god, and all things must end with Him, he is the beginning and the end. If God started you, then god will finish you. God can start you , and god can finish you. God does whatever pleases him. How can it please god to send people to hell? Because that is their ticket back to freedom..God is...no matter what we would like to think....GOOD. There will come a day, when every tear will be wiped from our eyes, when all of his creatures will bow down before him, out of reverence and respect and honour. It must ultimately happen. For some it will take longer than for others, but we will all acknowledge that God is indeed Good. I also believe that although god loves unconditionally, he does not show that love unless you love him. Since everything that God does is through faith, you need to have faith in his love before you will experience it. Its not Gods love that is conditional, it is the experience of that love that is conditional. Since God responds to faith. You will not experience the love of God unless you have faith in god. Experiencing the love is conditional. The more you love God, the more you will experience His love back. Love is ultimately the nourishment for the spirit, the water for a thirsty soul, the battery of the spirit. Without it, we are indeed NOTHING.
Heneni
Heneni
I suppose it is natural for someone to wonder how a God that calls himself love, can send some to hell...only until you realise your in it already, and your focus should be to not come back here. God give us all the opportunity to return to glory, that is called unconditional love. But he wont force himself on you! You are not here because God did something wrong, you are here because you chose to seperate yourself from God. All that deliberately seperates itself from god will ultimately suffer, just as a person will suffocate when they dont have a source of air. Without God, the source and sustainer of LIFE, it is not possible to have ETERNAL life. Life without God is not called life is is called survival.
All things started with god, and all things must end with Him, he is the beginning and the end. If God started you, then god will finish you. God can start you , and god can finish you. God does whatever pleases him. How can it please god to send people to hell? Because that is their ticket back to freedom..God is...no matter what we would like to think....GOOD. There will come a day, when every tear will be wiped from our eyes, when all of his creatures will bow down before him, out of reverence and respect and honour. It must ultimately happen. For some it will take longer than for others, but we will all acknowledge that God is indeed Good. I also believe that although god loves unconditionally, he does not show that love unless you love him. Since everything that God does is through faith, you need to have faith in his love before you will experience it. Its not Gods love that is conditional, it is the experience of that love that is conditional. Since God responds to faith. You will not experience the love of God unless you have faith in god. Experiencing the love is conditional. The more you love God, the more you will experience His love back. Love is ultimately the nourishment for the spirit, the water for a thirsty soul, the battery of the spirit. Without it, we are indeed NOTHING.
Heneni
Heneni
McBell
Unbound
I disagree.
With, well, this whole post
Kcnorwood
Well-Known Member
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
Sometimes you have to go away for a while to remember how much you value something. Sometimes you have to lose your way to find it. :angel2:
tariqkhwaja
Jihad Against Terrorism
Actually, I believe his love is divided into two parts. Rahman and Raheem.
Rahman refers to the unconditional love through which we got the sun, moon, stars, our lives, and many other things for which no human could have said to have put any effort whatsoever. The sun, for example, does not exist due to any effort of ours. We do not deserve it for any past achievements. So Rahman is the unconditional generosity and love God bestows on everyone including humans who do good and those who don't do any good.
Raheem is the love that requires an effort to obtain. So good people who worship God and please Him by fulfilling their obligations towards Him and mankind, they earn this second love. Which is also heaven in this world and the hereafter.
Of course, if He rewards good people, then as a consequence of the fact that human beings have a choice He punishes those who do bad. But even there a lot of unconditional forgiveness exists.
cardero
Citizen Mod
I think this description may be trying too hard to define GOD's unconditional love as it is expressed through religion's morals and attainment to be good. I don’t think GOD swings back and forth. Either He (GOD) has and expresses unconditional love for us (equally) or there is an implied condition. One cannot have it both ways, even to appease their own sense of right or wrong, good or bad. My question to the religious minded is "Which will it be?"
Once again, for those that are playing at home, Unconditional Love refers to a type of love that is known and expressed to be without condition.
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A mothers love is unconditional. Like this lady is expesssing.As a human being and as a mother......even if my own children were to spit at me, throw dirt at me, curse my name, and run away from home to ruin their lives, if I ever heard them screaming in pain from being tortured I could never sit by idly and feel that "justice" has been served.
I would run to them and do what I could to help them. I love them unconditionally.
I don't have a problem with seeing my kids shed a few temporary tears because of natural consequences (like scolding, taking away priviledges, etc.) for bad behavior in our house, but that's much different than a punishment that is more like strapping them to their beds and setting them on fire.
And again, I am a mere human. Is God's capacity for love more or less than my own?
Something to think about, hmmmmm?
Where all of you go wrong is thinking God sends anyone to an ever burning hell.
The biblical hell is the grave where we bury the dead.
From the "Foundation of the Earth" God has provided atonement. Certainly if you don't believe there is a "Gold Ring" on the "Merry Go Round" you will not reach for it.
If you are told and shown an object that looks like a Gold Ring and you continue to not believe. What should the Merry Go Round operator do? Give you a hand full of Gold rings? OH, Yeah, free rides for everyone for ever. When it happens I'll believe in Satan Claus. LOL
From the foundation of the world, the Way out of your ficticious hell! That is unconditional Love.
And remember all those in the grave/hell are dead, and the dead know nothing. So if the dead are burned to ashes, how are they going to feel? Nada!
The Christian Hell is to scare the Hell out of Children. And it's never worked for any of them, for eventually they all die and are placed in the grave/hell.
God is genderless, has a motherly side, this side is where the unconditional love emanates. "In his image he created them." Later he separates them.
blackout
Violet.
The whole point is "WE" don't think that at all.
This is the MAINSTREAM teaching of MANY major christian churches.
Perhaps it is your fellow christians that you need to be correcting.
Did you miss the part where I mentioned the Christian hell being wrong?
Just who the hell is my fellow christians? Do you not see that I see that is where the misconception came from?
I am speaking to anyone who will listen. I do not champion the Christian Error er Era!
Maybe you should read some of the other posts I have made, if one reads them and thinks I champion Christianity, needs to relearn how to read.
tariqkhwaja
Jihad Against Terrorism
Swings back and forth? Talk about misunderstanding.
Look a mother has unconditional love for her children. But a child who is insistant on touching fire; one wouldn't be surprised if his mother slapped him. The inherent choice given to human beings allows them to do wrong. And that wrong must be punished until humans rehabilitate themselves. As long as hell is not eternal and is only remedial the love is unconditional.