How can one be Christian and Wiccan

[spirittalker101]

I don't get it either.

Because it is religious rape by people who don't know the first thing about the religion

 

[Willamena]

Because that goes against BOTH

It also favours both.

 

[spirittalker101]

This is a DIR forum (Discuss Individual Religion). If you are going to resort to name-calling, well, then some of us will resort to calling the moderators on this one.

Never called a name. Asked questions and not getting answers getting circular logic

 

[MaddLlama]

I hate to tell ya but seeing as Gardner made the religion by compiling many other religions together and perfroming religious rape I think what he said is what it is. Not some watered down so that the general public will like it thing. No one ever said that the lord and lady of the isles were the british isles. That distinction was never made.

Sure, and according to Gardner, only a witch can make a witch, and only a Wiccan can initiate another Wiccan. So, who initiated the first witch? Also according to Gardner Wicca is an ancient religion synonymous with witchcraft that dates back to paleolithic times.
Are you suggesting that Wicca is not allowed to evolve past what Gardner came up with? If so, then to deny that Wicca is ancient would be tantamount to heresy. Not to mention that the Gardnerian Laws as he wanted to implement them caused a great deal of controversy, and Doreen Valentine split off and laid the groundwork for the evolution of Wicca and Paganism as we have it today.
But, why talk about history when we could spend time telling others how stupid and fluffy their religion is, right?

Some questions

If you do not follow either religion, why use their names?
Wicca is an earth loving religion?

Just 2 for now I'll think of more later.

I'm not a Christian Pagan anything. I happen to be a Recon, so your first question is irrelevant to me. Try doing a google search for a Christian Wiccan/Christian Pagan website and ask them.
Secondly, Wicca is a religion based on honoring the earth and the many cycles therein, but I'm not entirely sure how that's relevant.

 

[spirittalker101]

Sure, and according to Gardner, only a witch can make a witch, and only a Wiccan can initiate another Wiccan. So, who initiated the first witch? Also according to Gardner Wicca is an ancient religion synonymous with witchcraft that dates back to paleolithic times.
Are you suggesting that Wicca is not allowed to evolve past what Gardner came up with? If so, then to deny that Wicca is ancient would be tantamount to heresy. Not to mention that the Gardnerian Laws as he wanted to implement them caused a great deal of controversy, and Doreen Valentine split off and laid the groundwork for the evolution of Wicca and Paganism as we have it today.
But, why talk about history when we could spend time telling others how stupid and fluffy their religion is, right?



I'm not a Christian Pagan anything. I happen to be a Recon, so your first question is irrelevant to me. Try doing a google search for a Christian Wiccan/Christian Pagan website and ask them.
Secondly, Wicca is a religion based on honoring the earth and the many cycles therein, but I'm not entirely sure how that's relevant.

Hmmm lets see nice try at throwing my stuff back in my face. I never said that it stopped with gardner but that those are the true teaching. Actually the religion is a MYSTERY FERTILITY CULT. It does have to do with earth to an extent but that isn't everything. Actually a male witch can make a female witch, and only a Wiccan can initiate another Wiccan. So, who initiated the first wiccan? that would be gardner himself.

All Wiccans are Witches
but not all witches are wiccan.

the controversy that happened when Doreen Valentine split off is that she started telling the mysteries that made Wicca what it is.

Is there an age that you must be to be wiccan?

 

[Runt]

Some Wiccan traditions are more purely duotheistic than others. There is a God and there is a Goddess. Each might be called by many names... Lugh, Apollo, Demeter, Astarte........ Yahweh, Mary... but they are still the Lord and the Lady (2 distinct deities, rather than one god or a pantheon).

The elements of ceremonial magick within Wicca can be modified in such a way as to more clearly resemble the rituals of Christianity. Cakes And Wine can be identified with Communion, for example, and instead of calling the Quarters one could instead call the Watchtowers (which in some traditions are represented by the archangels).

Even the most basic Wiccan "creation story" can be interpreted in a Christian way. The story goes that the Goddess is impregnated by the God. The Goddess then gives birth to the God. The God grows, is sacrified and then is later reborn as the son of the Goddess.

Finally, the Wheel of the Year---which includes celebrations around the same time (and with similar themes) as Christmas, Candlemas, Easter, Lammas, All Soul's Night---could focus more heavily upon Christian theology.

The only big difference would be the use of magic...........

 

[Gentoo]

Because it is religious rape by people who don't know the first thing about the religion

LOL! Oh that was funny!

 

[spirittalker101]

Some Wiccan traditions are more purely duotheistic than others. There is a God and there is a Goddess. Each might be called by many names... Lugh, Apollo, Demeter, Astarte........ Yahweh, Mary...

The elements of ceremonial magick within Wicca can be modified in such a way as to more clearly resemble the rituals of Christianity. Cakes And Wine can be identified with Communion, for example, and instead of calling the Quarters one could instead call the Watchtowers (which in some traditions are represented by the archangels).

Even the most basic Wiccan "creation story" can be interpreted in a Christian way. The story goes that the Goddess is impregnated by the God. The Goddess then gives birth to the God. The God grows, is sacrified (as the harvest, in Wicca) and then is later reborn.

Finally, the Wheel of the Year---which includes celebrations around the same time (and with similar themes) as Christmas, Candlemas, Easter, Lammas, All Soul's Night---could focus more heavily upon Christian theology.

The only big difference would be the use of magic...........

So basically any religion can be made into christianity if the christians like it enough?? That is what it sounds like to me

 

[spirittalker101]

LOL! Oh that was funny!

glad some one caught it

 

[MaddLlama]

Hmmm lets see nice try at throwing my stuff back in my face. I never said that it stopped with gardner but that those are the true teaching. Actually the religion is a MYSTERY FERTILITY CULT. It does have to do with earth to an extent but that isn't everything. Actually a male witch can make a female witch, and only a Wiccan can initiate another Wiccan. So, who initiated the first wiccan? that would be gardner himself.

If Wicca is an ancient religion (as, Gardner never claimed to have invented Wicca, but rather claimed he was introduced and initiated into a Wiccan coven), then how could Gardner have initiated himself? Especially when the Wicca he was presenting was a system that didn't allow for self-initiation? In order to be a "Real Wiccan"(tm) as you're presenting it, then it has to be done by a group. So, who initiated the first witch in ancient times?

the controversy that happened when Doreen Valentine split off is that she started telling the mysteries that made Wicca what it is.

Is there an age that you must be to be wiccan?

Are you asking me to quiz my knowledge on the Gardnerian laws? I'm not Wiccan, and consider them antiquated anyway, so I never bothered to memorize them.

 

[MaddLlama]

glad some one caught it

Psst, I think she was laughing at you.

 

[spirittalker101]

If Wicca is an ancient religion (as, Gardner never claimed to have invented Wicca, but rather claimed he was introduced and initiated into a Wiccan coven), then how could Gardner have initiated himself? Especially when the Wicca he was presenting was a system that didn't allow for self-initiation? In order to be a "Real Wiccan"(tm) as you're presenting it, then it has to be done by a group. So, who initiated the first witch in ancient times?

Actually Gardner Invented the religion. By doing so he was the first and didn't need to be initiated. Wicca was not around before that. You are missing that. What was going on before that that he used was WITCHCRAFT, NOT Wicca. Yes to be a "Real Wiccan" as you put it you do have to be initiated by a priest/priestess of the opposite sex. Witches and Wicca are different. I already explained that.

ALL WICCANS ARE WITCHES
but NOT ALL WITCHES ARE WICCAN

Make sense???

Are you asking me to quiz my knowledge on the Gardnerian laws? I'm not Wiccan, and consider them antiquated anyway, so I never bothered to memorize them.

Funny you fight like you are the law on it and some of the most commonly known laws of Wicca and you can't answer them. You must be 18 to be allowed to join a coven with out parental consent due to the rites and rituals that are performed.

 

[Runt]

So basically any religion can be made into christianity if the christians like it enough?? That is what it sounds like to me

You seem to have this mistaken belief that all religions exist in some kind of stasis. They do not. Religions are constantly growing and evolving. Christianity contains within its broad spectrum of beliefs, holidays and rituals many elements which were originally pagan. Neopaganism, on the other hand, borrows just as heavily from Christianity, because Gardner was heavily inspired by Ceremonial Magic, which itself was heavily inspired by Christianity (and Judaism).

Syncretism is an ongoing process in all religions. To suggest that syncretism was acceptable in the formation of these religions and yet is not acceptable in their continued evolution is ridiculous.

 

[MaddLlama]

Actually Gardner Invented the religion. By doing so he was the first and didn't need to be initiated. Wicca was not around before that. You are missing that. What was going on before that that he used was WITCHCRAFT, NOT Wicca. Yes to be a "Real Wiccan" as you put it you do have to be initiated by a priest/priestess of the opposite sex. Witches and Wicca are different. I already explained that.

You're the one that seems to be missing something. You keep saying that the system Gardner came up with and called "Wicca" is the only true version of Wicca. Well, the idea that Wicca was invented by Gardner didn't gain wide acceptance among Wiccans until fairly recently (and some still believe this). So, if Wicca is not an acient religion, and was in fact invented by Gardner himself, then the version of Wicca that he presented is not 100% valid, as it rests almost entirely on the idea that it's an ancient religion that survived unbroken through the spread of Christianity.

Besides, if in order to accept that any combination of Christianity and Paganism is impossible, wrong, or fluffy, one must first accept that BTW is the only valid form of Wicca, then I have a feeling you're going to have a hard time even finding people to meet you where you're starting from.

Times change.

ALL WICCANS ARE WITCHES
but NOT ALL WITCHES ARE WICCAN

Make sense???

I've heard that hundreds of times before you showed up here. I also fail to see how its relevant.

Funny you fight like you are the law on it and some of the most commonly known laws of Wicca and you can't answer them. You must be 18 to be allowed to join a coven with out parental consent due to the rites and rituals that are performed.

That would probably be because I'm not Wiccan. I don't involve myself with Gardnerian covens, so I see no necessity in memorizing their laws. Additionally, if one has never been initiated into a Gardnerian coven, then they can't know everything about it. It is, after all, a "mystery" religion. I do however know a fair bit about Pagan and Wiccan history, including the erroneous sources Gardner got his information from, and the additional revisionist crap history that came out of it.

Do you actually have a question you want to ask? Or did you just come here to make fun of the people who don't believe exactly like you?

 

[spirittalker101]

You seem to have this mistaken belief that all religions exist in some kind of stasis. They do not. Religions are constantly growing and evolving. Christianity contains within its broad spectrum of beliefs, holidays and rituals many elements which were originally pagan. Neopaganism, on the other hand, borrows just as heavily from Christianity, because Gardner was heavily inspired by Ceremonial Magic, which itself was heavily inspired by Christianity (and Judaism).

Syncretism is an ongoing process in all religions. To suggest that syncretism was acceptable in the formation of these religions and yet is not acceptable in their continued evolution is ridiculous.

If one is catholic you don't see them being a catholic wiccan, or a buddist wicca.... therefore it begs the question just because ideas were taken from one to another that both religions can be observed together? Maybe it is just me. I know that you can't be 2 religions at once it doesn't work, You can't serve 2 masters.

 

[Storm]

If one is catholic you don't see them being a catholic wiccan, or a buddist wicca.... therefore it begs the question just because ideas were taken from one to another that both religions can be observed together? Maybe it is just me. I know that you can't be 2 religions at once it doesn't work, You can't serve 2 masters.

Correction: YOU can't. Others manage just fine. Your lack of imagination is not their problem.

 

[MaddLlama]

If one is catholic you don't see them being a catholic wiccan, or a buddist wicca.... therefore it begs the question just because ideas were taken from one to another that both religions can be observed together? Maybe it is just me. I know that you can't be 2 religions at once it doesn't work, You can't serve 2 masters.

I've met Buddhist Pagans before. And Taoist Pagans. Wicca, and most of Paganism is a syncretic practice. Gardner pillaged parts of religions and cultures and smashed all those unrelated bits together to make Wicca. If you're going to defend Gardner's and his successors cultural and religious rape as being "true Wicca", then what exactly gives you the right to condemn people who find meaning in combining aspects of Christianity and Paganism?

If you want to believe that only a Gardnerian Wiccan is a true Wiccan, that's your prerogative. However, don't expect everyone to agree with you.

 

[spirittalker101]

Correction: YOU can't. Others manage just fine. Your lack of imagination is not their problem.

Oh so when in doubt attack the person and not the debate....that is bad form.

when there are MAJOR conflicts how could anyone think that they can do it. That is like trying to tie your shoe and walk. Independently both options are fine but when combined it makes for one hell of a home video.

 

[MaddLlama]

Oh so when in doubt attack the person and not the debate....that is bad form.

when there are MAJOR conflicts how could anyone think that they can do it. That is like trying to tie your shoe and walk. Independently both options are fine but when combined it makes for one hell of a home video.

Have you taken the time to actually talk to a Christian-Pagan? Google search, read some articles or websites? If they believed there were so many major issues and contradictions, then I would wager they wouldn't get into it. Maybe you ought to do some research to see how they actually solve those problems.

I'm afraid you won't find that info here, as I don't believe we have any Christian-Wiccan members.

 

[spirittalker101]

I've met Buddhist Pagans before. And Taoist Pagans. Wicca, and most of Paganism is a syncretic practice. Gardner pillaged parts of religions and cultures and smashed all those unrelated bits together to make Wicca. If you're going to defend Gardner's and his successors cultural and religious rape as being "true Wicca", then what exactly gives you the right to condemn people who find meaning in combining aspects of Christianity and Paganism?

If you want to believe that only a Gardnerian Wiccan is a true Wiccan, that's your prerogative. However, don't expect everyone to agree with you.

You make many assumptions. Yes gardner raped many religions in forming wicca but those religions did not inturn then start believe wicca.

As for the buddhist pagans and taoist pagans guess what they are all pagans. not just a set of them. Pagan means not believeing in the abrahamic god and they don't. So those references mean nothing.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, just to think about this with some common sense and see why it doesn't work or how they infact make it work. So far there has been very little of that.