But you don't believe that they are literal. Isn't that taking them as symbolism?
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How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?
But you don't believe that they are literal. Isn't that taking them as symbolism?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
In John 21 until I come was referring to Jesus in the present time, not to coming back to earth later.
Daniel 7 talks about one like the Son of Man coming on the clouds. Jesus was telling Pontius Pilate why he was not resisting arrest.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I just don't believe the bodily resurrection ever happened although the miracles might have happened.
When Jesus said until I come, what event was he talking about? Until I come where?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe Daniel 7 is referring to Baha'u'llah -- one like the Son of Man.
Isaiah talked about the servant's continued life after his death. He talked about Jesus prolonging his days and seeing the light of life.
Nebuchadnezzar used the expression like the Son of Man and also the expression like the Son of God.
Micah 5:2 refers to the Messiah being from Bethlehem.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Where in the Baha'i writings does it suggest that the resurrection was anything but symbolic?
Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith, wrote through his secretary:
We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the crucifiction of Christ, but that there was a time after His ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually his true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood.
We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the crucifiction of Christ, but that there was a time after His ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually his true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And yet you fail to answer the question. What does 457BC have to do with the sacrifice being stopped and all the rest of the stuff. So why does the 2300 years start there? Then we have this...
Then Baha'is go on to count all the other references that can be transformed into 1260 years start and stop in the same years, even though the things being talked about, like the Umayyads and Abbasids, didn't begin or end in those years. Why? Yes, it is very plain and very simple. Those are the only dates that work for Baha'is, so they make everything start in 621AD, so everything can end in 1844. One thing for sure, Baha'is shouldn't use prophecies as any kind of proof. They should stick with Baha'u'llah's life and his writings... But then, who came up with these fulfilled "prophecies"? I know Bill Sears and I think Abdul Baha' too. Who else found all these Bible prophecies that supposedly were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Sorry if I don't trust any religious person's interpretations of "prophecies" fulfilled. Two gospels put Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem. Both were written long after Jesus was born. Then, like I asked you before, Matthew has Jesus going to Egypt and Luke has him going back to Nazareth. You trust it and believe it. I have my concerns.
Those two gospel accounts were consistent with each other. They both mentioned Bethlehem.
From Isaiah 11:15-16
(NIV)
'The Lord will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River.
He will break it up into seven streams
so that anyone can cross over in sandals.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.'
But has the gulf of the Egyptian sea dried up?
Also it wasn't a scorching wind that caused the Euphrates to dry up, but rather man-made dams. And has anyone counted its streams to check that exactly seven are left?
Then there is the small matter of Assyria not existing anymore, and that most of the Jews that returned probably did so by air or by ship, not by highway over a dried up sea as they were alleged to have done in the time of the mythical Moses.
Then there is the fact that not all Jews have returned as some of them are happy living in foreign nations.
You could go study why Biblical Scholars in the 1800's thought 1844 was the date. No need to ask a Baha'i.
The fact there are these calculations, prior to when the Bab came, should really give all that is needed, as it shows some Christians had already calculated the year.
He said "My principles in brief, are, that Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, cleanse, purify, and take possession of the same, with all the saints, sometime between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844."
1831-1844 ~ Millerite Movement | Adventist Digital Library
This is a Chart
https://adventistdigitallibrary.org...loadWorker=1&pdfnet=0&pageHistory=1&subzero=1
Regards Tony
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From my understanding of Prophecy, it does not unfold in a chronological order.
There is a lot yet to happen
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It'd be interesting to ask the Jews how they interpret it, in the context of the whole chapter.
Below is the chapter from the Jewish Bible. It seems obvious to me that Micah 7:12 is about the Lord.
Chabad
7 But I will hope in the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God shall hearken to me.
12 It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.
KJV
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
Here are all the other English translations:
Micah 7:12 - Bible Gateway
Michah - Micah - Chapter 7
1Woe is to me, for I am as the last of the figs, like the gleanings of the vintage; there is no cluster to eat; the first ripe fig my soul desires.
2The pious have perished from the land, and there is no upright among men; they all lurk for blood; each one hunts his brother with a net.
3[In return] for the evil of their hands, do they expect that He will benefit them? The prince asks, and the judge is in the payment, and the great man speaks what is in his heart-and they weave the web.
4The best of them is like a brier, the most upright, [worse] than a thorn hedge. The day to which you look forward-your visitation-shall come; now will be their perplexity.
5Believe not a friend; trust not a prince; from she who lies in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth.
6For a son disgraces his father; a daughter rises up against her mother; a daughter-in-law, against her mother- in-law; a man's enemies are the members of his household.
7But I will hope in the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God shall hearken to me.
8Rejoice not against me, my enemy; although I have fallen, I will rise; although I will sit in darkness, the Lord is a light to me.
9I will bear the fury of the Lord-for I have sinned against Him-until He pleads my cause and executes justice for me. He shall take me out into the light; I will see His righteousness.
10And my enemy shall see, and shame shall cover her who says to me, "Where is the Lord your God?" My eyes shall gaze upon her: now she shall become trodden as the mire of the streets.
11"The day to build your walls-that day-its time is way off."
12It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.
13And the land shall become desolate [together] with its inhabitants because of the fruit of their deeds.
14Lead Your people with Your rod-the flock of Your inheritance who dwell alone, a forest in the midst of a fruitful field-and they shall graze in Bashan and Gilead as in days of yore.
15As in the days of your exodus from the land of Egypt, I will show him wonders.
16Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.
17They shall lick the dust as a snake, as those who crawl on the earth. They shall quake from their imprisonment; they shall fear the Lord, our God, and they shall fear you.
18Who is a God like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness.
19He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea all their sins.
20You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which You swore to our forefathers from days of yore.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16193?#lt=primary
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't know. If you read the chapter maybe you can figure it out.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do believe that Jesus lived on after His death, but not in a physical body, in a spiritual body.