How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Trailblazer]

We discussed this at length, Trailblazer. The Baha'u'llah did not fulfill the prophecies of the Tanakh, just as Jesus did not.

I do not care what we discussed. You never proved anything.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but if Baha'u'llah was the Messiah He was the Messiah, and there is nothing you can do about that, because God is the one who determines who the Messiah is, beliefs carry no weight.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bahuallah didn't return in 1844. We would have his kingdom on earth if he returned then.

It was not Baha'u'llah who came in 1844, it was His forerunner, the Bab. Baha'u'llah declared His mission in 1863.

There is no reason to believe that the Kingdom of God would be established instantaneously, as soon as Baha'u'llah appeared, because it was never Baha'u'llah who was slated by God to establish the Kingdom of God on Earth, the Baha'is were enjoined to establish it according to the guidelines Baha'u'llah revealed. Changing the world takes a long time. There is no magic wand that was going to be waved and establish the Kingdom of God instantly, that is a Christian fantasy.

 

[Skywalker]

It was not Baha'u'llah who came in 1844, it was His forerunner, the Bab. Baha'u'llah declared His mission in 1863.

There is no reason to believe that the Kingdom of God would be established instantaneously, as soon as Baha'u'llah appeared, because it was never Baha'u'llah who was slated by God to establish the Kingdom of God on Earth, the Baha'is were enjoined to establish it according to the guidelines Baha'u'llah revealed. Changing the world takes a long time. There is no magic wand that was going to be waved and establish the Kingdom of God instantly, that is a Christian fantasy.

I believe the Bab and Jesus both being the Messiah are mutually incompatible beliefs, because there is no evidence that a 1000 year kingdom was established in 1863.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm looking at the William Sears book. I have a question. Page 127 says: "
Many Bible scholars in the millennial days were seeking the Messiah by
the title ‘the Glory of God’."

Can you find a source to back this up?

Interesting question. I do not know what Bible scholars were looking for, I'd have to re-read what Sears wrote for context. Didn't he cite references?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I do not care what we discussed. You never proved anything.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but if Baha'u'llah was the Messiah He was the Messiah, and there is nothing you can do about that, because God is the one who determines who the Messiah is, and beliefs carry no weight.

The Messiah, among other things:
1. Will usher in an era of world wide peace (Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore). What we see is war, not peace. Jesus, Baha'u'llah, and anyone else have all failed at being the messiah.
2. Will bring all the Jews back to the land. This implies within his lifetime. Not spread out across many lifetimes. Not even half of all Jews live in Israel, and certainly no one has come to find the lost 10 tribes. Therefore the Messiah has not come yet. Not Jesus. Not the Baha'u'lah, not anyone.
3. Will be "David," meaning will be a political king ruling Israel from Jerusalem. This excludes Jesus and the Baha'u'llah, obviously.

 

[dybmh]

Interesting question. I do not know what Bible scholars were looking for, I'd have to re-read what Sears wrote for context. Didn't he cite references?

No references on that one.

 

[Skywalker]

The Messiah, among other things:
1. Will usher in an era of world wide peace (Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore). What we see is war, not peace. Jesus, Baha'u'llah, and anyone else have all failed at being the messiah.
2. Will bring all the Jews back to the land. This implies within his lifetime. Not spread out across many lifetimes. Not even half of all Jews live in Israel, and certainly no one has come to find the lost 10 tribes. Therefore the Messiah has not come yet. Not Jesus. Not the Baha'u'lah, not anyone.
3. Will be "David," meaning will be a political king ruling Israel from Jerusalem. This excludes Jesus and the Baha'u'llah, obviously.

The Messiah would also rule the nations of the world from Jerusalem. Jesus will reign for a thousand years of peace, when the wolf lies with the lamb.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe the Bab and Jesus both being the Messiah are mutually incompatible beliefs, because there is no evidence that a 1000 year kingdom was established in 1863.

I never claimed that the Bab was the Messiah, I claimed that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah.
As the return of Christ and the Messiah of the latter days, Baha'u'llah came to complete the work that Jesus started. Jesus was the Herald of the Kingdom that would be built later, during the Messianic Age.

The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . . . . . 20

“Jesus created a power of perceiving God which was new, and in order that it might operate clearly, had to cleanse the spirit of man from all worldly encumbrances. Virtue becomes detachment from the world, sin attachment to it. Jesus demanded this sacrifice — losing the life of the world for the life of the spirit, but He made God so attractive, so joyous, loving, powerful, that the Christian was ready to abandon all for Him, and for Christ Who revealed Him.

Thus the tremendous and fearsome Deity of the Old Testament wins men's hearts in the New. We read of the poor sparrow whose fall was watched by a loving Father, of the flower of the field and the bird of the air, and the tenderest stories that ever have won men's hearts — the prodigal son and the good Samaritan.

A new quality of love now characterizes the Kingdom, a love which united the believers not only with God, but with each other, and even extended to enemies and "them that hate you." "That ye love one another" became the test of Christian discipleship.

The supreme ideal of this love was, as shown in John, the relationship between Christ and the Father, and though revealed in the most simple language and the plainest words, stands as the highest expression of Divine love in scripture.

The result was that Jesus' teachings let loose upon the soul and heart of man a spiritual power such as never had been known in the world before. Historians have said that Jesus' teaching has done more to elevate human nature and civilization than all the laws of legislators and the disquisitions of philosophers combined. By releasing religious energies measured to the needs of the hour and the people, He opened the way to the Kingdom of God in men's hearts. New affections and aspirations, hopes and loyalties were brought into being and the whole moral world was carried into a state of flux.”

Christ and Baha'u'llah, Chapter 4

As I just said in my previous post, the Kingdom was not going to be established as soon as Baha'u'llah appeared or even during His lifetime. There is nothing in the Bible or the Tanakh that says that the Messiah would establish the Kingdom himself, during his lifetime. The only reason Christians and Jews believe that is because they have misinterpreted their scriptures, reading into them what is simply not written there, assuming the scriptures mean what they do not say, and projecting their own desires onto the scriptures..

 

[Trailblazer]

The Messiah would also rule the nations of the world from Jerusalem.

Sorry but that is not in the Bible, and as such it is just a Christian belief that came about from a misunderstanding of the Bible.

Jesus will reign for a thousand years of peace, when the wolf lies with the lamb.

As i have told you repeatedly, Jesus won't be doing any more work on Earth, because Jesus is not coming back to Earth, according to the Bible.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The thousand year reign is referring to Baha'u'llah. Peace will be established during Baha'u'llah's reign because Baha'u'llah was the Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Clearly, Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 but Jesus promised to fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 when He returned.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[Skywalker]

I never claimed that the Bab was the Messiah, I claimed that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah.
As the return of Christ and the Messiah of the latter days, Baha'u'llah came to complete the work that Jesus started. Jesus was the Herald of the Kingdom that would be built later, during the Messianic Age.

The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . . . . . 20

“Jesus created a power of perceiving God which was new, and in order that it might operate clearly, had to cleanse the spirit of man from all worldly encumbrances. Virtue becomes detachment from the world, sin attachment to it. Jesus demanded this sacrifice — losing the life of the world for the life of the spirit, but He made God so attractive, so joyous, loving, powerful, that the Christian was ready to abandon all for Him, and for Christ Who revealed Him.

Thus the tremendous and fearsome Deity of the Old Testament wins men's hearts in the New. We read of the poor sparrow whose fall was watched by a loving Father, of the flower of the field and the bird of the air, and the tenderest stories that ever have won men's hearts — the prodigal son and the good Samaritan.

A new quality of love now characterizes the Kingdom, a love which united the believers not only with God, but with each other, and even extended to enemies and "them that hate you." "That ye love one another" became the test of Christian discipleship.

The supreme ideal of this love was, as shown in John, the relationship between Christ and the Father, and though revealed in the most simple language and the plainest words, stands as the highest expression of Divine love in scripture.

The result was that Jesus' teachings let loose upon the soul and heart of man a spiritual power such as never had been known in the world before. Historians have said that Jesus' teaching has done more to elevate human nature and civilization than all the laws of legislators and the disquisitions of philosophers combined. By releasing religious energies measured to the needs of the hour and the people, He opened the way to the Kingdom of God in men's hearts. New affections and aspirations, hopes and loyalties were brought into being and the whole moral world was carried into a state of flux.”

Christ and Baha'u'llah, Chapter 4

As I just said in my previous post, the Kingdom was not going to be established as soon as Baha'u'llah appeared or even during His lifetime. There is nothing in the Bible or the Tanakh that says that the Messiah would establish the Kingdom himself, during his lifetime. The only reason Christians and Jews believe that is because they have misinterpreted their scriptures, reading into them what is simply not written there, assuming the scriptures mean what they do not say, and projecting their own desires onto the scriptures..

Jesus will come back in a glorified body.

I believe that Judaism projects its desires into the scriptures by teaching that there will either be two Messiahs or a Messiah who fulfills all the prophecies in one coming. The cryptic nature of the Messiah in Judaism makes me believe that it is a replacement of the Messiah being a Creator and Savior.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Messiah, among other things:
1. Will usher in an era of world wide peace (Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore). What we see is war, not peace. Jesus, Baha'u'llah, and anyone else have all failed at being the messiah.
2. Will bring all the Jews back to the land. This implies within his lifetime. Not spread out across many lifetimes. Not even half of all Jews live in Israel, and certainly no one has come to find the lost 10 tribes. Therefore the Messiah has not come yet. Not Jesus. Not the Baha'u'lah, not anyone.
3. Will be "David," meaning will be a political king ruling Israel from Jerusalem. This excludes Jesus and the Baha'u'llah, obviously.

1. Will usher in an era of world wide peace (Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore). What we see is war, not peace. Jesus, Baha'u'llah, and anyone else have all failed at being the messiah.

• Baha'u'llah did usher in the era of world wide peace. Absolutely nowhere do any scriptures say when that peace will be established.

2. Will bring all the Jews back to the land. This implies within his lifetime. Not spread out across many lifetimes. Not even half of all Jews live in Israel, and certainly no one has come to find the lost 10 tribes. Therefore the Messiah has not come yet. Not Jesus. Not the Baha'u'lah, not anyone.

• Jews have been brought back to the homeland. Absolutely nowhere do the scriptures say ALL the Jews in the world will return to Israel.

3. Will be "David," meaning will be a political king ruling Israel from Jerusalem. This excludes Jesus and the Baha'u'llah, obviously.

• Absolutely nowhere do any scriptures say that the Messiah will be Will be "David," meaning will be a political king ruling Israel from Jerusalem.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus will come back in a glorified body.

(John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

 

[Trailblazer]

No references on that one.

Okay, but is there a particular reason you want to know why Bible scholars in the millennial days were seeking the Messiah by the title ‘the Glory of God’.

I might be able to research this when I have time, or maybe one of the other Baha'is such as @ adrian009, @ Tony Bristow-Stagg , @ InvestigateTruth , or @ loverofhumanity would know.

 

[Skywalker]

Sorry but that is not in the Bible, and as such it is just a Christian belief that came about from a misunderstanding of the Bible.

As i have told you repeatedly, Jesus won't be doing any more work on Earth, because Jesus is not coming back to Earth, according to the Bible.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The thousand year reign is referring to Baha'u'llah. Peace will be established during Baha'u'llah's reign because Baha'u'llah was the Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Clearly, Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 but Jesus promised to fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 when He returned.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

10 Biggest Lies about Yeshua, His Jewishness, and What Some Call ‘Jewish Christianity’ | Jewish Voice

According to Judaism, the Messiah will fulfill all the prophecies in one coming or there will be two Messiahs. The idea that Jesus isn't coming back is a belief or Rabbinic Judaism.

A significant Messianic prophecy that is often overlooked by those still waiting for the Messiah is Daniel 9:24-27. This Old Testament prophecy says that Messiah, the Anointed One, will be “cut off,” or killed, before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, which happened in 70 A.D. Clearly, Yeshua’s death fits as fulfilling this prophecy, and no Messiah yet to come could.

Bible prophecy contains portraits of both a suffering Messiah and a victorious Messiah. The suffering servant is pictured as a lamb, wounded, and cut off, but not for Himself. The triumphant Messiah comes to establish His rule of peace and righteousness over the earth.

These two seemingly contradictory prophetic descriptions are difficult to understand for Jewish People. To reconcile these two very different portrayals of the Messiah, there grew a belief among the rabbis that they were waiting for two Messiahs. One they called Mashiach ben David, and He would be the Son of King David who would rule and reign. The other they called Mashiach ben Joseph, the Son of Joseph. This Messiah ben Joseph would suffer and be rejected by his own like Joseph was rejected by his brothers. At the time of Yeshua’s coming, Israel longed for the conquering Messiah. Because of Rome’s oppression and their expectation that God would send the Deliverer, they were looking for Messiah ben David.

The truth is, it is not two Messiahs, it is one Messiah coming twice—first as the Lamb of God, the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, and then as the reigning King Messiah when Yeshua returns. Yeshua’s first coming fulfilled the prophecies of the suffering servant. With Yeshua’s Second Coming, we will see the fulfillment of the victorious, reigning Messiah of Isaiah 11:1-9!

 

[Skywalker]

1. Will usher in an era of world wide peace (Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore). What we see is war, not peace. Jesus, Baha'u'llah, and anyone else have all failed at being the messiah.

• Baha'u'llah did usher in the era of world wide peace. Absolutely nowhere do any scriptures say when that peace will be established.

2. Will bring all the Jews back to the land. This implies within his lifetime. Not spread out across many lifetimes. Not even half of all Jews live in Israel, and certainly no one has come to find the lost 10 tribes. Therefore the Messiah has not come yet. Not Jesus. Not the Baha'u'lah, not anyone.

• Jews have been brought back to the homeland. Absolutely nowhere do the scriptures say ALL the Jews in the world will return to Israel.

3. Will be "David," meaning will be a political king ruling Israel from Jerusalem. This excludes Jesus and the Baha'u'llah, obviously.

• Absolutely nowhere do any scriptures say that the Messiah will be Will be "David," meaning will be a political king ruling Israel from Jerusalem.

Revelation talks about those who died during Tribulation reigning for a thousand years. Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Israel will be regathered when Jesus returns. Israel Regathered Only When Jesus Christ Returns

Believing Jews And Gentiles Are God's People

The world hates the Jewish people because God gave the world a conscience through Israel. God's Law came to the world through Israel (Romans 9:4). This is why Israel is so hated around the world. Sadly, MOST Jews are headed straight for Hell when they die to burn in the sulfuric flames of torment because they have arrogantly rejected Jesus Christas the ONLY True Messiah. The following Scripture evidences that Old Testament saints were saved the EXACT SAME WAY that New Testament saints are saved, that is, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Acts 10:43, “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

The Bible calls Israel the apple of God's eye...

"For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye." —Zechariah 2:8

Jesus was a descendant of David from Solomon on Joseph's side, legally, and Nathan on Mary's side, biologically.

 

[Skywalker]

(John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Jesus didn't mean he won't come back when he said his kingdom is not of this world. He meant that at the time his kingdom was of this world and it first and foremost is a spiritual kingdom.

 

[Trailblazer]

Revelation talks about those who died during Tribulation reigning for a thousand years. Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Israel will be regathered when Jesus returns. Israel Regathered Only When Jesus Christ Returns

Everything you say and believe is subject to your interpretation of the scriptures. Baha'is have a completely different interpretation from Christians and I see no point in arguing about differences in interpretation, as it leads nowhere.

 

[Skywalker]

Everything you say and believe is subject to your interpretation of the scriptures. Baha'is have a completely different interpretation from Christians and I see no point in arguing about differences in interpretation, as it leads nowhere.

Why do you think the Christian interpretation is less likely?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus didn't mean he won't come back when he said his kingdom is not of this world. He meant that at the time his kingdom was of this world and it first and foremost is a spiritual kingdom.

That might be true that Jesus meant that His kingdom was of this world and it first and foremost is a spiritual kingdom, but Jesus never said He was coming back to earth to build a Kingdom.

You will believe whatever you want to believe in order to maintain your beliefs even when Jesus clearly said that His work was finished here and He was not coming back to this world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you think the Christian interpretation is less likely?

Because I believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah of the Latter Days (the Messianic Age).
I believe that because that is what all the evidence shows.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah