How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[CG Didymus]

Who said that Only an infinite God can pay the infinite penalty of sin? This is not in the Bible, it is a Christian belief and a doctrine of the Church that you bought off on.

Once we've sinned against an infinite God, we cannot make it up with good works. In human law, attempting to bribe a judge will only make the penalty worse. How much more would it be for the holy righteous judge of the universe?

I think that many Christians would believe that the Baha'i Faith is a false religion. But, it sure sounds that some Baha'is feel the same way about Christianity.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm not sure why you think David will be resurrected during the messianic era. Its before the resurrection.

Do Jews believe in a physical resurrection similar to most Christians? Because you know Baha'i, who say they have the latest and more accurate message from God, say that there is no such thing as a physical resurrection.

 

[dybmh]

I sure wish you would stop using the word credible because that is what atheists say and it is meaningless, since what people consider believable is highly subjective. For example, atheists say there is no credible evidence for God's existence or for Messengers of God, but that is just their personal opinion.

I'm happy to drop it. i was just answering your question:

You say that the Christian Bible is not credible, what do you mean by credible?
Can you explain WHY you think the Christian Bible is any LESS credible than the Tanakh?

----------------------------------------------------

You are right that the number of adherents is irrelevant. I see the Bahai Faith as a lot more credible than any of the older religions, but that is just my personal opinion. The Tanach is a tiny bit more credible based on content not based on how many people deem it credible. Nowhere in the Baha'i Writings does it say that I could perform a miracle if I believe.

Agreed.

 

[CG Didymus]

I can back up my beliefs with the prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah

Yes, you say you can, then say prophecies prove nothing because they all can be interpreted different ways. Then I ask you why Baha'is start counting 2300 years from 456BC and you get all upset. So, no, you can't back up any prophecy, Like you tell others... It's just your interpretation. And why is yours better than anybody else's? Because you think your interpretation comes from God through Baha'u'llah and the other Baha'i leaders.

 

[Skywalker]

Do Jews believe in a physical resurrection similar to most Christians? Because you know Baha'i, who say they have the latest and more accurate message from God, say that there is no such thing as a physical resurrection.

Daniel 12:2 reads

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[CG Didymus]

The claim that Jesus is a Messiah requires the Christian bible. The Christian bible is not a credible source. No one really knows what Jesus said or did. Because of this it should be understandable that anyone, including Jews, is skeptical about Jesus' status as a Messiah.

The claim that Jesus is a Messiah is not based on credible evidence.

But he walked on water. He turned water into wine. And healed the sick. And he rose from the dead... Oh wait, Baha'is don't believe that is true. For sure, some
Baha'is sound like they agree with you that the Christian Bible is not a credible source. But, they probably feel the same way about the Jewish Scriptures. Even though they'll show you Baha'i quotes saying how wonderful the Bible is. Then, when needed, they can show you quotes on why the Bible is not 100% authentic and not historically accurate and should not being taken literally. So what's left? To believe it like they do. Only some things are true... like any prophecies that points to Baha'u'llah being the Messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

I think that many Christians would believe that the Baha'i Faith is a false religion. But, it sure sounds that some Baha'is feel the same way about Christianity.

Do you believe that only an infinite God could pay the price of sin? I believe that is why Bahulllah isn't the Messiah; why would there be a Messiah other than the one who paid the price of sin and is God?

 

[Skywalker]

Because whether or not Moses is a prophet of God is irrelevant. When comparing the content of the Tanach vs. the content of the Christian bible, the Christian bible promises that anyone can truly make a miracle if they believe. The Tanach doesn't do that.

Please provide quotes that show that "everything has been accomplished".

Great, the question is: how was Baha'u'llah involved in the resettlement of the land of Israel?
OK. I was wrong. Thank you for pointing it out.

Jesus was talking about the faith to pray that which is in God's will, not name it and claim it theology.

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you believe that only an infinite God could pay the price of sin? I believe that is why Bahulllah isn't the Messiah; why would there be a Messiah other than the one who paid the price of sin and is God?

Strange things are going on. A Baha'i pretending that they believe the Bible is "credible"? Maybe they don't use that word, but they do say it is not "wholly" authentic. They claim that there are no contradictions between the "original" message given by every single manifestation. But they do believe that the leaders and followers of every other religions got things wrong by adding in "traditions" of men and making doctrines from things they misinterpreted. Making all religions "one" is possible, though, all we have to do is listen to what Baha'is say is the truth. A significant belief for Christians to get rid of is that crazy notion that Jesus rose physically from the dead. Even though it was written down as if Jesus came back to life, that's just Christians taking their Bible way too literal. Baha'is will tell you the truth... Jesus' body died and his spirit rose, that's it. Oh, and it isn't Jesus coming back either.

 

[Skywalker]

Strange things are going on. A Baha'i pretending that they believe the Bible is "credible"? Maybe they don't use that word, but they do say it is not "wholly" authentic. They claim that there are no contradictions between the "original" message given by every single manifestation. But they do believe that the leaders and followers of every other religions got things wrong by adding in "traditions" of men and making doctrines from things they misinterpreted. Making all religions "one" is possible, though, all we have to do is listen to what Baha'is say is the truth. A significant belief for Christians to get rid of is that crazy notion that Jesus rose physically from the dead. Even though it was written down as if Jesus came back to life, that's just Christians taking their Bible way too literal. Baha'is will tell you the truth... Jesus' body died and his spirit rose, that's it. Oh, and it isn't Jesus coming back either.

The resurrection of Jesus is historical. Hundreds of people saw Jesus after he died.

7 Aspects of Jesus’s Life That Are Historically Certain | Reasons for Jesus

By Brian Chilton| When I had struggled with my faith, it was not in the area of science. I believed that science and faith can coexist, and I still do. The God who gave the special revelation of the Bible is also the same God who created the heavens and the earth from no materially existent thing.

My struggles were in the area of history. In 1997, I came across a work by a group called the Jesus Seminar (composed of individuals such as John Dominic Crossan, Robert Funk, and Marcus Borg) which claimed that the majority of the words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels could not be historically verified. I later came to find that the Jesus Seminar had no evidence to support their claims, just their own presuppositions.

However, as I began studying the areas of history, philosophy, and theology, I came to realize that the core details of Jesus of Nazareth’s life can be known with great certainty. One of my professors at Liberty, Gary Habermas, developed what he calls the minimal facts approach.

This approach lists out six areas of Jesus’s life that are universally accepted by all historians. He also adds a seventh which holds strong support, albeit less than the other six. So, what are these seven historical aspects of Jesus’s life that can be held with great certainty? They are as follows.

1. Jesus died on a Roman cross.
It is universally accepted that Jesus of Nazareth died by crucifixion. Even agnostic leaning atheist New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman states that “The crucifixion of Jesus by the Romans is one of the most secure facts we have about his life.”[1] The Romans were efficient killers. They would ensure that the individuals whom they were instructed to kill died. Otherwise, their lives would have been taken in the victim’s place.

2. The disciples had experiences that led them to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead.
It may surprise you to discover that nearly all historians accept that the disciples had experiences that led them to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. Nearly all scholars agree that something happened on the first Easter Sunday. But what happened is where they differ.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because whether or not Moses is a prophet of God is irrelevant. When comparing the content of the Tanach vs. the content of the Christian bible, the Christian bible promises that anyone can truly make a miracle if they believe. The Tanach doesn't do that.

To me what is relevant is the authenticity of the scriptures, and whether Moses and Jesus were really Prophets of God, not what they promised. I do not know where Jesus said that anyone can truly make a miracle if they believe, but if you are referring to actually moving mountains, not even the most literalist Christians would believe they can do that with faith.

Please provide quotes that show that "everything has been accomplished".

There are no such quotes because the Baha’i Writings are not about what Jesus accomplished, they are about what Baha’u’llah accomplished. It is a given for Baha’is that Jesus accomplished what He set out to do, because Messengers of God always accomplish what they set out to do, and then the next Messenger of God appears in the following age.

Great, the question is: how was Baha'u'llah involved in the resettlement of the land of Israel?

Baha’u’llah was not involved in the resettlement. Please show me any verses in the Tanakh that say it is the Messiah who will do this. Do you really think that the Messiah sent by God would spend His time resettling people?

Jewish people began to return to their homeland as the result of things that transpired when the Bab appeared and after that. The prophecies were that Jews would return during the Messianic Age, but they do not state how or why or precisely when they would return. Please note that none of the prophecies say that ALL the Jews who had been scattered throughout the world would return to their homeland.

An edict of toleration is a declaration, made by a government or ruler and states, that members of a given religion will not be persecuted for engaging in their religious practices and traditions. The edict implies tacit acceptance of the religion rather than its endorsement by the ruling power.
Edict of toleration - Wikipedia

On 21 March 1844, the Sublime Porte of the Ottoman Empire submitted a note to the British and French embassies promising to cease the executions of apostates from Islam.[1] In the Baháʼí Faith, this is known as the Edict of Toleration and has a prophetic significance.

Background

The edict took place during the process referred to as the Eastern Question in relations between European powers, Britain in particular, and the Ottoman Empire in its development at a time referred to as Tanzimat internally which included other initiatives like ending the Ottoman slave trade. It was largely a result of pressure from the British government to stop to the persecutions of the Christians. Tanzimat was an Ottoman reform process that sought equal protections under the law in Ottoman lands for all people; however, it did not address matters of religious freedom.[2] A particular incident in 1843 with an Armenian Ottoman subject sparked an incident in August which gained international entanglements and then a Greek national in November, both of whom were put to death - the process of which became the Edict in March 1844.[3] Reverend Edward Bickersteth referred to these developments in 1844 when he summarized diplomatic notes[4][nb 1] presented to the British Parliament noting "The correspondence occupied a considerable part of the year—from Aug. 27, 1843, to April 19, 1844."[5]
Edict of Toleration (1844) - Wikipedia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It says “He” and the LORD in these verses, referring to God, because it was by the Will of God that they were able to return, because of things that transpired in the 19th century, starting with the Edict of Toleration of 1844.

"Thus saith the LORD: Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears; for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. And there is hope for thy future, saith the LORD; and thy children shall return to their own border." (Jer. 31:15-16)

"And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the dispersed of Israel, and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isa. 11:12)

"If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers." (Deut. 30:4-5)

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great horn shall be blown; and they shall come that were lost in the land of Assyria, and they that were dispersed in the land of Egypt; and they shall worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." (Isa. 27:13)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JERUSALEM, Israel – Nearly 70 years before the rebirth of the modern State of Israel, the Jewish people began to return to their ancient homeland, as the prophets foretold. And they're still coming.

It's called 'aliyah' – literally 'going up.' Taken from biblical times, the term describes the Israelites going up to Jerusalem to worship at the Temple. Today, it means immigrating or returning to Israel.

They come from all over the world to a place many have never been. Yet the Jewish people have longed to return to this land for thousands of years........

Biblical prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, among others, all spoke of a time when God would bring the Jewish people back to the Land of Israel. Amos said they'll never be dispersed again.

"I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them," says the Lord your God." (Amos 9:15, NASB)

'Gathering of the Exiles': After Thousands of Years, Jews Come Home to Israel

According to this article, that prophecy has been fulfilled. I suggest you read the whole article; I am just posting the first two paragraphs.

 

[rational experiences]

Theme science topic.

For science artificial.

Man was healthy natural spiritual.

Life of a human man

Want to argue that fact?

Living inside our heavens as a bio near water body cell human life. With animals with the garden.

All owned natural form.

Basic one heaven not science gas spirit converting thinking.

Man said I invented satanism.
Man said I magically converted into. Beast. Biological exodus into man ape.

Satanism the beast thesis did it. AI state...fake man thinking.

Evidence on God O circle earth body earth natural mass.

His Ai circle pi and Phi and alien image.

Quoted nearly anti my life. I anti CH gases only owned in space womb myself.

Not owned by O God mass.

God in space womb sealed stone.

Basic thinking.
Rational basic advice without coercive argument.
Basic statement never give God O earth a name again.

Science. Man..humans..brothers gave God Earth a name.

Sacrificed our life after ice age not once. Twice.

Moses then Jesus.

All data written in a saved life by a scientist who compared human DNA to animal beasts first in a thesis.

Is it any wonder he thought he personally was a superior male human?

Too bad for his victims.

Science said El is gods name.

Power is energy in crystalline mass Jew El.

Humans were not named Jews before life attacked.

Said it was a common human life status. To the science self all humans were sacrificed by El the jewel in nuclear.

Quote jesus not a jewel in metal gold crown. Irradiated pricked brain conditions.

I know I got fall out brain burnt as a female.

Life continuance female a human is both lives of ovary. fake maths sophism Sophia lying not life. Just maths.

You do not talk on behalf of natural mass existing the God O earth teaching.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, you say you can, then say prophecies prove nothing because they all can be interpreted different ways. Then I ask you why Baha'is start counting 2300 years from 456BC and you get all upset. So, no, you can't back up any prophecy,

You said: So, no, you can't back up any prophecy.

That is absolutely false. It is only the prophecy of Daniel 8 I won't address.

You said: Then I ask you why Baha'is start counting 2300 years from 456BC and you get all upset.

I get all upset because we agreed to drop it but you refuse to drop it. Do you really think that hounding me into submission is going to get me to address this?

I will send an e-mail to my personal Baha'i friend Duane (Truthseeker9) and ask him to respond to you. He is very well-versed in the Bible and Baha'i Writings and Christian history. The other Baha'is on this forum call him the intellectual.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer, I'm still waiting on an answer to this question.

I just answered this question.

 

[rational experiences]

If science says stone burning releases light gases. Then they did.

Immaculate not sacrificed gases cold and clear.

Never was the wandering star immaculate.

Taught.

Was titled saviour.

If the stone removed named body of God in science Earth mass released gases...they were never the immaculate.

If a man using maths prophetic argument counts time by numbers future time is not his to discuss.

His own number age is as old as he is.

C given holy life value 100 years.

If he reviewed star returned saviour advice as a scientist. He would own man body mind physical cause to update data info.

As wandering star releasing body mass is new.

Why he would quote it new advice.

For a sensible thinker.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm trying to ignore any preconcieved ideas and simply look at verses that Baha'i deem important.

Okay, but what verses we deem important might not be the same as the verses you deem important.

OK. That explains why Baha'i would interpret those verses differently. But it doesn't bring anything convincing to an outsider. The belief in the Baha'i version of the messiah comes first. So the choice to believe in Baha’u’llah as the Messiah is not really coming from prophecy. The belief comes probably from what he wrote. I've read some of his writing, it doesn't speak to me. If a person likes his writing, is inspired by what he says, that's a personal preference, If a person isn't inspired by his writing, it's not due to confirmation bias or reticence looking at different interpretations of prophecy.

First, let me say that what is most important to Baha’is is that Baha’u’llah was Manifestation of God (Messenger of God). The fact that Baha’u’llah was a Messiah, as promised in all the world’s religions, is because of His mission on earth, His place in history. Because of that, I would say that the choice to believe in Baha’u’llah as a Manifestation of God should be determined by all the evidence that shows that He was a Manifestation of God, including His character, the history of His Cause, and His Writings, whereas the choice to believe in Baha’u’llah as a Messiah should be coming from the prophecies, whether what He did and promised to do lines up with what those prophecies say the Messiah will do and what will happen during the Messianic Age. I hope that makes sense.

I can tell you that when I first became a Baha’i 50 years ago, and throughout most of my Baha’i life, I did not read much of what Bahaullah wrote. I never could understand it very well because of the writing style and it did not appeal to me, so I read what Abdu’l-Baha wrote and I read other books about the Baha’i Faith, and I got basically the same information about the teachings of Baha’u’llah. It was not until one day in June 2014 when I was having a crisis that I decided to read Gleanings, and when I realized what Baha’u’llah was saying about God and Manifestations of God, that began a whole new chapter in my life, because I had not really known any of that before. This was hugely important, more important than the "new" social teachings, because without an understanding of God one has no religion. After that day in June, I must have read the paperback of Gleanings at least five times and I have read the paperback of The Kitab-i-Iqan about three times, and also Tablets of Baha’u’llah and some other books He wrote. If you count how many times I have read excerpts from the Writings online it is a lot more than that!

That said, I have not read much of the Tanakh or the New Testament, but what I have read is not easy for me to understand, and probably one reason is because I do not have context since I have never read them cover to cover. It is not only that, but also because of the style of writing that is not very direct and to the point. Maybe the Books of Moses are clearer, but I find the books of the prophets about as confusing as the Book of Revelation.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, no, you can't back up any prophecy, Like you tell others... It's just your interpretation. And why is yours better than anybody else's? Because you think your interpretation comes from God through Baha'u'llah and the other Baha'i leaders.

Simply put, I believe that my interpretation is 'better' because I actually HAVE a Messiah who fulfilled the prophecies, and what Baha'u'llah did as well as what the Baha'is are in the process of doing by following His instructions aligns with those prophecies. No, my interpretation does not come from God through Baha'u'llah or the other Baha'i leaders, it comes from reading the prophecies and comparing them with how that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah.

Who else has that? All the Jews and Christians have are the prophecies and what they believe they mean, and a hope for a Messiah who will come and fulfill them as they have interpreted them.

 

[Skywalker]

Simply put, I believe that my interpretation is 'better' because I actually HAVE a Messiah who fulfilled the prophecies, and what Baha'u'llah did as well as what the Baha'is are in the process of doing by following His instructions aligns with those prophecies. No, my interpretation does not come from God through Baha'u'llah or the other Baha'i leaders, it comes from reading the prophecies and comparing them with how that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah.

Who else has that? All the Jews and Christians have are the prophecies and what they believe they mean, and a hope for a Messiah who will come and fulfill them as they have interpreted them.

Why do you think Bahullah will be the second coming of the Messiah if the prophecies about the second coming of Jesus are literal? The Second Coming of Jesus: Metaphor or Literal? | Reasons for Jesus

By Steven Bancarz| In the New Age movement, the second coming of Jesus is believed to be a metaphor for the arrival of “Christ Consciousness” within millions of people around the world as they begin to awaken to their higher nature.

Christ will incarnate, in a sense, within humanity as a divine state of consciousness. As Eckhart Tolle says:

“The ‘second coming’ of Christ is a transformation of human consciousness, a shift from time to presence, from thinking to pure consciousness, not the arrival of some man or woman. If “Christ” were to return tomorrow in some externalized form, what could he or she say to you other than this:

“I am the Truth. I am divine presence. I am eternal life. I am within you. I am here. I am now.” – Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment (Novato, California: New World Library, 1999): 105.

Deepak Chopra also affirms this when he says:

“THE SECOND COMING WILL BE A SHIFT IN CONSCIOUSNESS THAT RENEWS HUMAN NATURE BY RAISING IT TO THE LEVEL OF THE DIVINE” (DEEPAK CHOPRA. THIRD JESUS, 40).

Is it possible that the second coming really was meant to be taken metaphorically as an awakening of humanity to a higher state of consciousness? To put it lightly, no.

How we know this is a false theory
1. This version of the second coming doesn’t meet a single description of what Jesus says his second coming will be like.
Jesus describes his second coming as being a physical and apocalyptic event. For example where Jesus says “Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” – Matthew 24:30-31 (ESV).

We know from scripture that the second coming is described in the following terms:

1. He will descend from Heaven. (1 Thes 4:16-17)
2. He will come with great glory. (Mat 24:30-31, Mk 8:38)
3. He will come with his angels. (Mat 24:30-31,Mk 8:38)
4. We will see him in the clouds/sky. (Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thes 4:16-17, Rev. 1:7)
5. That ALL the nations of the earth will mourn and wail when they see him. (Mat 24:30-31, Rev 1:7)

These are clear indications that Jesus and the apostles intended to mean the second coming was a literal return of Jesus himself.

 

[dybmh]

Please note that none of the prophecies say that ALL the Jews who had been scattered throughout the world would return to their homeland.

Jeremiah 29:14

And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.
​

 

[dybmh]

How do you know it was accomplished?

Because of what Baha'u'llah and Abdul'-Baha wrote.

Please provide quotes that show that "everything has been accomplished".

There are no such quotes because the Baha’i Writings are not about what Jesus accomplished, they are about what Baha’u’llah accomplished. It is a given for Baha’is that Jesus accomplished what He set out to do, because Messengers of God always accomplish what they set out to do, and then the next Messenger of God appears in the following age.

"There are no such quotes..." "It is a given..." That's not quite the same as knowing it because of what's written.

Baha’u’llah was not involved in the resettlement.

OK, I'll strike this from the list of prophecies fulfilled by Baha’u’llah. So besides Micah 7:12 what other Tanach prophecies were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah?