How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[dybmh]

@Skywalker,

I guess what I'm asking is: why should I trust your judgement on matters of God, sin, and salvation over my own? Everyone makes mistakes, yourself included, so, what makes your version of the meaning of these texts more reliable than mine?

 

[Skywalker]

@Skywalker,

I guess what I'm asking is: why should I trust your judgement on matters of God, sin, and salvation over my own? Everyone makes mistakes, yourself included, so, what makes your version of the meaning of these texts more reliable than mine?

My beliefs about God, sin, and salvation don't contradict your scriptures. I share the same scriptures as you. Jesus fulfilled all of the messianic prophecies, and one can believe in Jesus and follow Jewish traditions, and the two blend beautifully together. I believe in the New Testament because Jesus fulfilled all of the messianic prophecies. Judaism's beliefs about who the Messiah is come not just from the Old Testament, but rabbinic tradition, which is the opinions of people. Objections to Isaiah 7:14 and Isaiah 9:6-7

The Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) proclaims the coming Messiah, will be a descendent of David, (Son of David). When we compare the Jewish and Christian understanding of who the Messiah is, we see two different people. Although there are similarities between the Christian and Jewish views of Messiah, the differences outweigh any similarities.

First, let us compare what the similarities between the two views of Messiah. From a Christian point of view, many of the qualifications for the Messiah of Judaism reach fulfillment at the Second Coming. The Messiah will rule from Jerusalem, over the nations, during his reign Israel will be blessed above the nations. Leading up to his coming, Israel will suffer persecution by the nations (Gentiles) and at the end when it seems like all hope is lost, Messiah, Son of David, comes to Israel’s rescue and defeats the nations. Many of these beliefs are similar between the Jewish and Christian views on the role Messiah will play.

The differences revolve around the role and nature Messiah would play in the world. Jews reject the idea of the Messiah fulfilling two roles, one role, “Suffering Messiah” and the second role as “King Messiah”. Judaism also rejects as blasphemous the idea, that the Messiah would be the Son of God, very God, not to mention the idea that as God he died for the sins of the world.

 

[CG Didymus]

If the teachings of Jesus point to 3 more Messengers, that is Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah, the quandary is then manifest.

It is the OP after all.

Regards Tony

Nobody can even prove that Jesus is the true Messiah, so how you going to prove there were three more "messiahs" after Jesus? Anyway, just a simple search got me this... SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS – or Why Jesus is Not the Jewish Messiah –with Julius Ciss.

The concept of the Messiah has its foundation in our Jewish Bible, the Tanach, which teaches that all of the following criteria must be fulfilled before any person can be acknowledged as the Messiah:

Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.

The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a “birth-father” from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.

When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).
This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment.

Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.

The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

The Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.

There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity.

Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.

The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of G-d’s Torah.

Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.

The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

This, as well, has not yet taken place and we await its fulfillment.

No matter how many unusual & miraculous things Jesus seems to accomplish in the New Testament, he doesn't fulfill even one of the 6 criteria by which the Nation of Israel can recognize him as the true Jewish Messiah.
​

After you have shown a convincing argument on how Jesus is the Messiah, then after that you'll have to do the same with the three messengers that came after Jesus. Yet, how many of these six things have been fulfilled... especially the reason four, the one about peace? If all you can do is give an alternative interpretation... like making it metaphorical and not literal, then how are Baha'is different than Christians? But then, the Baha'i alternative interpretation differs from the Christian one. So you've got to not only reject the Jewish interpretation but also the Christian interpretation and I wouldn't be surprised if you'd have to reject the Islamic interpretation also. So what do we got? A bunch of religions telling the Jews that they should believe in these others religions because their prophet says he is the True One.

 

[Skywalker]

The Christian scripture can be interpretted in many ways.

The Old Testament is interpreted in many different ways. There are many traditions about a suffering Messiah in Judaism. They don't give the full picture but they hint about Jesus. There are traditions preserved in the Talmud about the Messiah, outside the gates of Rome, a leper, changing his bandages just one at a time, rather than all at once, in case he's called on and Israel needs him, in case its the time for redemption, and where do we get that from? We get that from Isaiah 53 that could be interpreted that the Messiah is smitten with leprosy. Judaism developed a doctrine of Messiah son of Joseph who would suffer and die in the great war and then the Messiah son of David would raise him up from the dead, that Messiah son of Joseph would fight many of the wars of the Lord, some of the earlier medieval Jewish commentators and philosophers said that if we were worthy, that Messiah son of David would come, if we aren't worthy, first Messiah son of Joseph and then Messiah son of David. That teaching may have come from the failed bar kochba result, but many Jews today believe that there will be two Messiahs-Messiah son of Joseph and Messiah son of David. There is even a teaching about the Messiah under the throne of God in the 8th 9th century rabinnic homilies, where the Messiah is under the throne of God suffering terribly and carrying the weight of the pains of the nation. You would've thought a Christian evangelist wrote that, it's amazing how strong and clear it is. He's suffering and carrying the weight and the pains of the nations and if he wasn't doing that, Israel would not be able to survive.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nobody can even prove that Jesus is the true Messiah, so how you going to prove there were three more "messiahs" after Jesus? Anyway, just a simple search got me this... SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS – or Why Jesus is Not the Jewish Messiah –with Julius Ciss.

The concept of the Messiah has its foundation in our Jewish Bible, the Tanach, which teaches that all of the following criteria must be fulfilled before any person can be acknowledged as the Messiah:

Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.

The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a “birth-father” from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.

When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).
This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment.

Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.

The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

The Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.

There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity.

Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.

The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of G-d’s Torah.

Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.

The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

This, as well, has not yet taken place and we await its fulfillment.

No matter how many unusual & miraculous things Jesus seems to accomplish in the New Testament, he doesn't fulfill even one of the 6 criteria by which the Nation of Israel can recognize him as the true Jewish Messiah.
​

After you have shown a convincing argument on how Jesus is the Messiah, then after that you'll have to do the same with the three messengers that came after Jesus. Yet, how many of these six things have been fulfilled... especially the reason four, the one about peace? If all you can do is give an alternative interpretation... like making it metaphorical and not literal, then how are Baha'is different than Christians? But then, the Baha'i alternative interpretation differs from the Christian one. So you've got to not only reject the Jewish interpretation but also the Christian interpretation and I wouldn't be surprised if you'd have to reject the Islamic interpretation also. So what do we got? A bunch of religions telling the Jews that they should believe in these others religions because their prophet says he is the True One.

CG, I think I have now said many time and made it very clear, that it is not my job to prove anything to any person, except my own self.

I see why Jesus and Muhammad will not be seen as the Messiah. I see why people will not see either the Bab or Baha'u'llah as the Messiah.

To consider acceptance of what Baha'u'llah offered, is up for each of us to decide decide. We must decide if what Baha'u'llah offered has some merit, then and only then may we take the actions required to investigate those claims for ones own self.

I have seen many that found faith by what other people thought the faith was, soon give it away, as they found things that they did not agree with. Thu the first step for me was to determine if Baha'u'llah knew more than we can possibly know.

The Messiah in every age fulfills Prophecy, a lot may not be seen outwardly as having come to pass. Baha'u'llah has explained this in the Kitab-i-quan, even that book requires us to each mediate upon what is offered.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nobody can even prove that Jesus is the true Messiah, so how you going to prove there were three more "messiahs" after Jesus? Anyway, just a simple search got me this... SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS – or Why Jesus is Not the Jewish Messiah –with Julius Ciss.

The concept of the Messiah has its foundation in our Jewish Bible, the Tanach, which teaches that all of the following criteria must be fulfilled before any person can be acknowledged as the Messiah:

Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.

The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a “birth-father” from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.

When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).
This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment.

Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.

The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

The Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.

There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity.

Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.

The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of G-d’s Torah.

Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.

The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

This, as well, has not yet taken place and we await its fulfillment.

No matter how many unusual & miraculous things Jesus seems to accomplish in the New Testament, he doesn't fulfill even one of the 6 criteria by which the Nation of Israel can recognize him as the true Jewish Messiah.
​

After you have shown a convincing argument on how Jesus is the Messiah, then after that you'll have to do the same with the three messengers that came after Jesus. Yet, how many of these six things have been fulfilled... especially the reason four, the one about peace? If all you can do is give an alternative interpretation... like making it metaphorical and not literal, then how are Baha'is different than Christians? But then, the Baha'i alternative interpretation differs from the Christian one. So you've got to not only reject the Jewish interpretation but also the Christian interpretation and I wouldn't be surprised if you'd have to reject the Islamic interpretation also. So what do we got? A bunch of religions telling the Jews that they should believe in these others religions because their prophet says he is the True One.

Reason #1 – Baha'u'llah qualifies

Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – It started at the beginning of the Baha'i Revelation and continues. It is hel back by neglect of the Message offered.

Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Baha'u'llah said that Temple is the Self of God.

"Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words "Be and it is".

Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Baha'u'llah offered, the world has to date rejected the offer


Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Baha'u'llah has, but not how the Jews think it will be. But the Baha'i Writings make the Torah available to the whole of humanity. The Messenger of God is the King of all Humanity, many do not see this.

Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Baha'u'llah has shown us that Oneness of God, yet many people see their God is not of the One God, that is a personal choice and this is what is happening, as you posted; "The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9)."

I see it has unfolded CG, I see many will not yet make that choice, or even want to look.

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

Reason #1 – Baha'u'llah qualifies

Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – It started at the beginning of the Baha'i Revelation and continues. It is hel back by neglect of the Message offered.

Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Baha'u'llah said that Temple is the Self of God.

"Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words "Be and it is".

Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Baha'u'llah offered, the world has to date rejected the offer


Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Baha'u'llah has, but not how the Jews think it will be. But the Baha'i Writings make the Torah available to the whole of humanity. The Messenger of God is the King of all Humanity, many do not see this.

Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Baha'u'llah has shown us that Oneness of God, yet many people see their God is not of the One God, that is a personal choice and this is what is happening, as you posted; "The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9)."

I see it has unfolded CG, I see many will not yet make that choice, or even want to look.

Regards Tony

Jesus will bring in the Jewish exiles during the Millennium kingdom. Jesus Christ Will Reign From Jerusalem

When Will Jesus Sit on His Throne, the Throne of David?

So much is said about the coming reign of Christ in the Bible that we should expect definite teaching about when Christ will sit on His throne and reign. Thank God, we do have definite teaching in many places on this question. For instance Matthew 25:31. There the Saviour tells us, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory...THEN shall He sit upon the throne of his glory." All the argument in this world cannot change the plain, simple fact which the Scripture expressly states: Jesus will be enthroned at His second coming.

Some may complain, however, that the Scripture, Matthew 25:31, refers to Jesus sitting on a throne to judge. It does tell about His judging those that are brought before Him, the sheep and goats, the saved and lost of the living nations on the earth when He returns. And that judgment will be on the basis of what they have done toward Christ's brethren, the Jews, during the tribulation period. We grant that. However, one must distinguish between this judgment of the living on earth with those three groups of sheep, goats and brethren, and the last great judgment of the unsaved dead, mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15.

No, Matthew 25:31 tells of the beginning of His kingdom when He shall sit on the throne of His glory. Those brought before Him are the living of the nations of the earth over whom He is to rule. In fact, in the same context, Matthew 25:34, we are told that the Saviour will say will say to the saints who will reign with Him: "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34). The kingdom of Christ begins when He will sit on the throne of His glory at His coming. -Pgs. 93,94

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus will bring in the Jewish exiles during the Millennium kingdom. Jesus Christ Will Reign From Jerusalem

There is a new Jerusalem. Jesus also has a New Name.

The Law goes out from Zion.

I see dangerous uncertain times are approaching, that will bring about greater change.

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

There is a new Jerusalem. Jesus also has a New Name.

The Law goes out from Zion.

I see dangerous uncertain times are approaching, that will bring about greater change.

Regards Tony

The in-gathering of the exiles will happen when the Messiah returns. Israel Regathered Only When Jesus Christ Returns

The following Scriptures plainly reveal that the preceding passage of Scripture can only be referring to when the Lord returns to set up His earthly kingdom (after the 7-year Tribulation), when He shall sit upon the throne of David and rule over the world from Jerusalem...

Ezekiel 36:25-28, “Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.”

A remnant of Jews will repent and believe the Gospel after the Rapture happens. These are the 144,000 of Revelation. God will restore His covenant with Israel (“he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week,” Daniel 9:27) during Daniel's 70th week, that is, during the 7-year Tribulation period. For now Israel in part is blinded, but once the Church is CAUGHT UP (1st Thessalonians 4:16-17), then the Jew's eyes will be opened and they will turn to God in large numbers...

Romans 11:25, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

The Messianic Kingdom would have been established if the Jews accepted Jesus. If Jews had accepted Christ as their Messiah would the earthly kingdom have been established then? | Bible.org

The cross is in no way God’s “Plan B” for the prophets spoke of both the sufferings and the glories as 1 Pet. 1 shows (as does Acts 3:17-21). If Israel had repented before the cross, Christ would still have been put on the cross by the Romans. But all of this is purely hypothetical. In keeping with God’s promises, Christ had to offer the kingdom, but also, in keeping with God’s eternal plan to reach the world, Israel was bound to reject as God knew they would and the gospel was offered to the world. Read carefully Romans 11:7-28. Again, as Paul states in Romans 11, this is a mystery truth.

Israel’s corporate stumbling, which is temporary, not permanent, is called a mystery. In Scripture a mystery is not a truth difficult to understand, but a truth previously unrevealed (and therefore unknown) which is now revealed and publicly proclaimed (cf. Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:26; at Matt. 13:10-16, see the chart that lists NT mysteries). Paul wanted to make sure his Gentile readers knew about the mystery concerning Israel in God’s sovereign choice. God’s purpose was so that you may not be conceited (lit., “wise in yourselves”). God’s sovereign plan to put Israel aside temporarily in order to show grace to Gentiles is no basis for conceit on the part of the Gentiles; it is designed to display further the glory of God.

Neither the offer of salvation of the Gentiles nor Israel’s hardening was a mystery in the Old Testament, as the verses above show, but the purpose of God in that hardening, was a mystery. All of this goes beyond our comprehension because our intelligence and capacity for comprehension is finite. The difference is even far greater than the difference that exists between a man and his dog. You can train your dog to go get the paper, maybe even your slippers, but you can’t sit down and read it to him and then discuss the news. Some things are just beyond our comprehension. A legitimate offer of the kingdom was made, but in the sovereign will and plan of God, there was no way that Israel as a nation was going to turn and repent. Some did, a remnant, but in God’s plan He is reaching out to the world through the rejection and hardness of Israel’s heart, a partial hardening until sometime in the future, via the awful testings of the Tribulation, when they will be brought to their knees, humbled, and will repent. To say, “What if they had repented” misses the point and is pure human speculation. They didn’t and God knew they would not, but in His faithfulness, He made the offer.

 

[dybmh]

My beliefs about God, sin, and salvation don't contradict your scriptures. I share the same scriptures as you. Jesus fulfilled all of the messianic prophecies, and one can believe in Jesus and follow Jewish traditions, and the two blend beautifully together. I believe in the New Testament because Jesus fulfilled all of the messianic prophecies. Judaism's beliefs about who the Messiah is come not just from the Old Testament, but rabbinic tradition, which is the opinions of people.

This doesn't answer the question: why should I trust your judgement over my own?

 

[dybmh]

The Old Testament is interpreted in many different ways. There are many traditions about a suffering Messiah in Judaism. They don't give the full picture but they hint about Jesus. There are traditions preserved in the Talmud about the Messiah, outside the gates of Rome, a leper, changing his bandages just one at a time, rather than all at once, in case he's called on and Israel needs him, in case its the time for redemption, and where do we get that from? We get that from Isaiah 53 that could be interpreted that the Messiah is smitten with leprosy. Judaism developed a doctrine of Messiah son of Joseph who would suffer and die in the great war and then the Messiah son of David would raise him up from the dead, that Messiah son of Joseph would fight many of the wars of the Lord, some of the earlier medieval Jewish commentators and philosophers said that if we were worthy, that Messiah son of David would come, if we aren't worthy, first Messiah son of Joseph and then Messiah son of David. That teaching may have come from the failed bar kochba result, but many Jews today believe that there will be two Messiahs-Messiah son of Joseph and Messiah son of David. There is even a teaching about the Messiah under the throne of God in the 8th 9th century rabinnic homilies, where the Messiah is under the throne of God suffering terribly and carrying the weight of the pains of the nation. You would've thought a Christian evangelist wrote that, it's amazing how strong and clear it is. He's suffering and carrying the weight and the pains of the nations and if he wasn't doing that, Israel would not be able to survive.

As I've stated previously, my objections do not come from Rabbinic teachings, they come from what's written in the NT and the behavior of believers throughout world history.

However I will respond directly to this:

There is even a teaching about the Messiah under the throne of God in the 8th 9th century rabinnic homilies, where the Messiah is under the throne of God suffering terribly and carrying the weight of the pains of the nation. You would've thought a Christian evangelist wrote that, it's amazing how strong and clear it is. He's suffering and carrying the weight and the pains of the nations and if he wasn't doing that, Israel would not be able to survive.

This is a simple question. In the story above, is it possible for the Messiah to be God?

 

[Skywalker]

As I've stated previously, my objections do not come from Rabbinic teachings, they come from what's written in the NT and the behavior of believers throughout world history.

However I will respond directly to this:



This is a simple question. In the story above, is it possible for the Messiah to be God?

Those three examples of rabinnic teaching that I mentioned are not there to support those teachings as I think that they were not saying the nature of who the Messiah is, but I believe that what they said contains hints of Isaiah 53 talking about the suffering servant and what the Old Testament says about the second coming of Jesus. I don't know what believers did, but that has nothing to do with God dying for his creation.

The Hebrew in Isaiah 9:6 supports the Messiah being God. What Bible verses say the Messiah would be God?

• 1. Isaiah 9:6 ‘For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;’
  

This child which is born is called El-Gibbor, which as I’m sure you know is 'Mighty God' and is never used of a man. Avi-Ad is literally ‘Father of Eternity’ and could never describe a mere man. Some quotes for you…

In the Targum of Isaiah we read: "His name has been called from old, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, He who lives forever, the Anointed One (Messiah), in whose days peace shall increase upon us."

 

[dybmh]

Those three examples of rabinnic teaching that I mentioned are not there to support those teachings as I think that they were not saying the nature of who the Messiah is, but I believe that what they said contains hints of Isaiah 53 talking about the suffering servant and what the Old Testament says about the second coming of Jesus. I don't know what believers did, but that has nothing to do with God dying for his creation.

*shaking my head* "God dying for his creation..."

The Hebrew in Isaiah 9:6 supports the Messiah being God. What Bible verses say the Messiah would be God?

This has been covered. I'm not interested in repeating it again.

 

[Skywalker]

*shaking my head* "God dying for his creation..."



This has been covered. I'm not interested in repeating it again.

No matter how hard we try, we are still going to sin. And when people commit crimes there are penalties. That's why God died for our sins.

El-Gibbor is never used of a man. Avi-Ad is also a title that belongs to God and God alone. Isaiah 9:6 also uses the term anointed one to refer to the Messiah.

 

[dybmh]

Avi-Ad is also a title that belongs to God and God alone.

Avi-Ad is smaller than God.

God is from everlasting even to everlasting.

Do a word study on Ad and compare it to Olam and let me know what you think after that.

 

[dybmh]

No matter how hard we try, we are still going to sin. And when people commit crimes there are penalties. That's why God died for our sins.

My personal opinion:

It's dishonest to use the word God if you really mean Jesus. If you think God = Jesus, then you should consistently use the name Jesus. Otherwise it's lying by omission.

 

[Skywalker]

Avi-Ad is smaller than God.

God is from everlasting even to everlasting.

Do a word study on Ad and compare it to Olam and let me know what you think after that.

Avi-Ad means ‘Father of Eternity." Some titles only refer to God, like Savior and Messiah. Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

[Skywalker]

My personal opinion:

It's dishonest to use the word God if you really mean Jesus. If you think God = Jesus, then you should consistently use the name Jesus. Otherwise it's lying by omission.

I believe that God incarnated to die for the sins of the world, because the price had to be died. I believe that God died for every single person. Without God dying for our sins, God taking our place would have no meaning.

 

[dybmh]

Avi-Ad means ‘Father of Eternity." Some titles only refer to God, like Savior and Messiah. Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Did you compare Ad to Olam?

 

[dybmh]

My personal opinion:

It's dishonest to use the word God if you really mean Jesus. If you think God = Jesus, then you should consistently use the name Jesus. Otherwise it's lying by omission.

I believe that God incarnated to die for the sins of the world, because the price had to be died. I believe that God died for every single person. Without God dying for our sins, God taking our place would have no meaning.

When you say "God" here ^^, do you mean "Jesus"?