How can YHWH be the FATHER?

[teage]

What do you think, that God is a man?

Not a man, a God, the God of this world as stated here.

When the (elyown) most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 32:8

For (yhwh's) the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

Deuteronomy 32:9

So, one can fathom all the 'face to face' accounts and not die since yhwh is not the Father.

 

[Sargonski]

The man calls himself god, does not necessary mean he is actually the one and only true God.

If we accept Jacob saw YHWH, would you then say he is not the true God, because it is said no one can see the God face to face?

Sorry, I have no good reason to believe you.

In a way that is true, even Moses was called a god at one point. Doesn't mean the Israelites were not monotheists, they just understood that many thing are called gods, but still, there is only one true God.

Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I have made you as God [Elohim] to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Exod. 7:1
For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”; yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5

What are you talking about?

No one said the fellow was "The one True God" What kind of moving the goal-post fallacy is this ?! What was told you is that this entity is a God.. and at minimum an Angel = divine entity = not human = not a man.

And why would you quote the New Testement as if the perspective of Paul has anything to do with the perspective of Jacob - Isra-EL = one who struggles with God .. Not Man. Whether or not this God is "the one true God" is a completely separate question .. a question one can not even understand and/or consider from a mono-theistic Perspective. Wake up .. and hear what is being said to you -- this is not about Your Perspective .. not about my perspective .. nor about the Perspective of a reformed Jewish Christian in 60 AD. The question here is who Jacob thought the mystery guest was .. and Jacob believed this entity to be a God.

What part of "The Israelites were not monotheist" are you having trouble understanding ? Lord YHWH tells them have no other Gods before me .. as does Lord Jealous . Not .. there are no other Gods .. the Israelites are not to worship other Gods ... and here I am guessing you don't understand what monotheism is .. and especially not in context of the Israelite beliefs.

Monotheism is Belief in Only One God .. this is different than worshiping only one God but believing in Many "Monolotry" or that one God is the Most High and there are other gods lower down the pecking order - "Henotheism" .

Now .. Listen to what you are being told .. so you don't have to make things up about what you were told (strawman fallacy) . The Israelites believed in the existence of other Gods .. as did Abraham. Abrahams idea was to worship only one of these God = Monolatry and/or Henotheism. This is not Monotheism.. KK !?

Now Listen further to what you are being gold ... not only were the Israelites never monotheist .. EVER .. do you understand ? .. normally they are raging polytheists ... as the Bible tells us . . and Biblical Archaeology .. and Biblical History.. You were NOT - challenged not to find a time when Israelites were monotheist .. You were challenged to find a time when they are not raging pagans ... a single instance from Moses on down .. all heretics - sans Moses himself - and even Moses is questionable but we will give him a pass for now.

Do you now understand the Question ? -- it is one not answered with quotes from Paul ?! - I will help you out to get started .. by showing you a time when the Israelites were worshiping other Gods .. .. even Moses own Brother Aaron joins in the Fun. Have you never heard of the Golden Calf ? .. of course you have .. when the Israelites break the covenant with YHWH .... the next Covenant and Commands .. different from the old tablets are given by Lord Jealous .. these the ones that go into the Ark ..as opposed to the tablets Moses Broke .. U understand ? these 10 commands are different than the previous 10... but we still consider this YHWH worship .. but as a Twin God .. like Zedek .. patron God of Jerusalem .. twin God righteousness ands justice.

So .. the Israelites - even after seeing Lord YHWH do all the miracles still believe in and worship other Gods. Full on belief in and worship of other Gods. Fast forward to Joshua.. at the end of his Life .. Every Israelite should be a YHWH worshiper given the Law says to slaughter any Israelite that worships other Gods .. If some in the town are found worshiping other Gods .. the whole town is to be slaughered .. men .. women children fetuses and babies. Yet .. that is not what happened .. because that is not actually the Law at the time .. it is a law written later by Priestly Scribes centuries after Israel is no more.

but .. when ever the law was introduced .. we know the Israelites did not follow it .. Joshua's farewell speech - Joshua 24

14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord. ...

23 “Now then,” said Joshua, “throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.”
24 And the people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God and obey him.”
25 On that day Joshua made a covenant for the people, and there at Shechem he reaffirmed for them decrees and laws

------------------------------------

Now .. you can't throw away foreign gods that you down own.. Just to be clear So the people are obviously still worshiping other Gods .. and definitely not following the command to slaughter all those who do - which is a breach of covenant - heresy. Raging heritics the whole lot.
So these raging bunch of heritics agrees to affirm a new covenant through Joshua .. that they will worship only Lord Jealous "For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14).

But . But But - as we all know .. the Israelites did not keep this promise ... and in fact .. they never acted on their words at all .. just paying lip service to a dying War Hero. Joshua and the generation that saw the Miracles of YHWH then passes ---The next generation carries on as if it never even knew YHWH ... never mind worship only this God ..

Then what happens through the rest of the Israelite Biblical History ? Judges 2 ..

8 Joshua son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died at the age of a hundred and ten. 9 And they buried him in the land of his inheritance, at Timnath Heres[b] in the hill country of Ephraim, north of Mount Gaash.

10 After that whole generation had been gathered to their ancestors, another generation grew up who knew neither the Lord nor what he had done for Israel. 11 Then the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord and served the Baals. 12 They forsook the Lord, the God of their ancestors, who had brought them out of Egypt. They followed and worshiped various gods of the peoples around them. They aroused the Lord’s anger
--------------------

YHWH is completely forgotten according to the Bible. The Israelites neither know YHWH .. or what he did for their ancestors. .. and that is right after .. "weeks" not years .. Joshua dies .. him being the last of his Generation at age 109 ... if not weeks away .. u understand ? The Children of that day were not taught about about YHWH .. and never observe the covenant made with -- forgetting all about this supposed book of the Law .. found by Hezekiah long after the Israelite Kingdom was dead and Gone ..

But .. what this passage says is not completely True .. as the Israelites do not completely forget about YHWH .. YHWH becomes the National God .. war God .. there ate the height of Empire .. the Great Temple built in his Name At Jerusalem by King Solomon. The problem is that while YHWH has followers .. YHWH is not the only God being worshiped by the Israelites .. who are worshiping many Gods .. throughout their entire history .. both Biblical history and Archaeological History .. they match up very well ...

And even those worshiping YHWH .. are worshiping YHWH along-side other Gods .. some of these Gods actually residing in the Temple with YHWH .. such as Asherah .. The Israelites believed God had a Consort . and a daughter known as Anat .. a Holy Trinity of Sorts ..Father - Mother - Daughter .. Such that even those worshiping YHWH were doing it in conjunction with the worship of other Gods.

This raging polytheistic festival only gets bigger and better with time for anyone who bothers to read the book .. by the time we get to Elijah .. he calls himself the only prophet left for the one true God .. . says there are 500 priests of Baal and 450 for Asherah ... and while this does not sound right (must have been more prophets for YHWH .. they were just not prophets of the One True Religion/God" .. its complicated but regardless .. what is clear is that there was not much YHWH worship going on .. never mind YHWH alone worship...

King Solomon builds YHWH a Nice temple but , also builds Nice temples for a host of Other Gods .. engaging in the occasional child sacrifice when a war need winning .. the practice not wide-spread .. but - Still .. This is how YHWH is being worshiped .. as per the command of YHWH ... sayeth the Bible.

Please tell me what a visit to the Temple of YHWH looks like around the Time of Solomon - which characters will we meet .. and what actions and rituals will be performed .. what are those special Trees all about .. and what are the male prostitutes for ? ... and tell me if this is the one time you found where the Israelites were Monotheist -- at the Height of Israelite Power ... Power via success of their National and War God YHWH.

What is going on at the Temple ? Tell me .. using the Bible or Biblical Archaeology .. or History .. help me to find some people that believe in the existance of only one God ..

 

[Muffled]

What kind of nonsense is that?

 

[Muffled]

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2:17

They did not die, they went on to live for hundred of years. YHWH also tempted them by planting it there in the first place. At the time, Adam and Eve had the mentality of a toddler. They didn't even know they were naked.

I believe they did die eventually. I believe they lost eternal life by eating that fruit. For one thing they became sexually aware which means children will come and that can't exist with eternal life.

 

[Muffled]

Okay, so you don't like the Bible. Meh.

FWIW, the New Testament is the Christian Scriptures. Don't expect them to meld with the Tanakh.

I believe it is always God's scriptures. Christianity comes from God not God from Christianity.

 

[teage]

I believe they did die eventually. I believe they lost eternal life by eating that fruit. For one thing they became sexually aware which means children will come and that can't exist with eternal life.

Yes of old age because they were deprived of the tree of life. The tree of knowledge did not kill them, being exiled killed them.

 

[teage]

However, everything is restored in Revelation and YHWH s curse lifted and, retaining awareness. Interesting to ponder the very state the "serpent" put us in before exile, is the very state that gets restored.

 

[teage]

The more I read your posts, the more I think you have a confused way of reading and understanding the scriptures. I can certainly understand that because before I was saved by Jesus Christ and born again the Bible was very confusing to me. I remember the dramatic change that took place once Jesus saved me and removed my blindness. Suddenly, the consistency and theme throughout the OT and NT became clear and made complete sense. It wasn’t like I understood everything or didn’t have questions, but I could see the big picture. One thing I fully came to realize was that Jesus ( the Son ) was God-YWHW; the God who interacted with the people in the OT period of history and who fully entered into humanity as Savior of the world, revealed in the NT.

Is Jesus Yahweh? Is Jesus Jehovah? | GotQuestions.org

Is Jesus Yahweh? Is Jesus Jehovah? How can Jesus be the Son of Yahweh and Yahweh at the same time?

www.gotquestions.org

I believe it is more likely that Yeshua was the serpent.

 

[teage]

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 says otherwise.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe it is always God's scriptures. Christianity comes from God not God from Christianity.

No offense, dude, I realize that it is important for you to feel that there is a seamless transition from the OT to the NT. But there's not. The overall thrust of the NT (largely due to Paul) is that the OT is abrogated in favor of a new covenant. And indeed the NT teaches something entirely new that is incompatible with the teachings of the Tanakh.

 

[Brian2]

No offense, dude, I realize that it is important for you to feel that there is a seamless transition from the OT to the NT. But there's not. The overall thrust of the NT (largely due to Paul) is that the OT is abrogated in favor of a new covenant. And indeed the NT teaches something entirely new that is incompatible with the teachings of the Tanakh.

What is entirely new that is incompatible with the teachings of the Tanakh?

 

[Brian2]

I believe it is more likely that Yeshua was the serpent.

How can you say that when there is not even a question about it? Maybe you are reading a different book.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What is entirely new that is incompatible with the teachings of the Tanakh?

To start with, the emphasis on belief over obedience.

 

[teage]

How can you say that when there is not even a question about it? Maybe you are reading a different book.

We know YHWH lied about being the FATHER because the bible says so,
Because the only liar is YHWH, whom admits the serpent indeed told the truth,
Symbolism of the snake is historically a symbol of healing or life,
Jesus said "before Abraham, I am" so he would have been there,
In the end we end up back in the garden under the same condition as when the serpent arrival in genesis,

 

[1213]

Not a man, a God, the God of this world as stated here.

Ok, so that means Abraham did not see the God? And Jacob did not wrestle with the real one and only true God?

 

[1213]

....not a man.

But the scripture tells there was three men, how can you say he who spoke was not a man, when it is directly told he was a man?

And why would you quote the New Testement

Because I think it tells how the things were and should be understood.

... Jacob believed this entity to be a God.

It is possible that he thought the person is god name only.

What part of "The Israelites were not monotheist" are you having trouble understanding ? Lord YHWH tells them have no other Gods before me .. as does Lord Jealous . Not .. there are no other Gods .. the Israelites are not to worship other Gods ... and here I am guessing you don't understand what monotheism is .. and especially not in context of the Israelite beliefs.

The point is, there is only one true God. But, there can be many other things and beings that are called gods. For example there was a golden calf that was held as a god. I have no doubt it existed, and it was called a god. So, many "gods" can exist, but if one keeps only one as his God, then he is a monotheist.

Monotheism is Belief in Only One God .. this is different than worshiping only one God but believing in Many "Monolotry" or that one God is the Most High and there are other gods lower down the pecking order - "Henotheism" .

If we think so, all people should be monotheists, because many things that are called god exists.

... U understand ? these 10 commands are different than the previous 10...

How do you know?

... some of these Gods actually residing in the Temple with YHWH .. such as Asherah ..

Please tell, why do you think so?

.... help me to find some people that believe in the existance of only one God ..

Ok, I can admit that the people have worshiped many gods. And that is wrong. In Biblical point of view only one true God exists and nothing else should be held as a god.

 

[teage]

Ok, so that means Abraham did not see the God? And Jacob did not wrestle with the real one and only true God?

Correct, Jesus says no man has ever seen the FATHER. Not an apparition of the FATHER, not a spirit of the FATHER, not in any form of the FATHER, period. Only Jesus has seen him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ok, so that means Abraham did not see the God? And Jacob did not wrestle with the real one and only true God?

That would be correct.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that these stories of Abraham and Jacob are historically accurate. What you had were men who were messengers of God, speaking and acting on his behalf.

 

[Sargonski]

But the scripture tells there was three men, how can you say he who spoke was not a man, when it is directly told he was a man?

Because I think it tells how the things were and should be understood.

It is possible that he thought the person is god name only.

The point is, there is only one true God. But, there can be many other things and beings that are called gods. For example there was a golden calf that was held as a god. I have no doubt it existed, and it was called a god. So, many "gods" can exist, but if one keeps only one as his God, then he is a monotheist.

If we think so, all people should be monotheists, because many things that are called god exists.

How do you know?

Please tell, why do you think so?

Ok, I can admit that the people have worshiped many gods. And that is wrong. In Biblical point of view only one true God exists and nothing else should be held as a god.

Holy Carp --- Do you have the faintest clue about story telling ?? Help me out here .. Chapter 1 of story .. we hear about 3 men visiting .. later on after wrestling one of these men .. Jacob realizes that this man was not a man .. but a God. ??????

but .. contrary to what you are saying -- 32 [a]Jacob also went on his way, and the angels of God met him. 2 When Jacob saw them, he said, “This is the camp of God!” So he named that place Mahanaim.[b]

The Bible actually says the 3 beings were angels .. it is later Jacob is said to have wrestled with what he thought was a man .. later turned out to be a God .. some will argue Angel .. but it is not questioned that Jacob later believes the entity with which he wrestled to have been a God .. and the people given his name .. are named Those who struggle with God .. Isra-EL .. not those who struggle with man .. EL is used as a general term for God .. and even if it was an angel .. it was an Angel sent by God .. - stuggling with God.

Good grief let us be done with the above silliness .. and move onto more silliness

The point is, there is only one true God. But, there can be many other things and beings that are called gods. For example there was a golden calf that was held as a god. I have no doubt it existed, and it was called a god. So, many "gods" can exist, but if one keeps only one as his God, then he is a monotheist.

HUH .. What on earth are you talking about ? --- NO .. that is not the point .. in any way .. shape .. or form .. It is the anti-point? Forgive my outburst but Holy whack a moly .. KK .. The Point .. listen carefully .. is that the Israelites did not believe in this one True God .. whomever you think that is .. and never .. did they believe that there was only one true God .. From start to finish .. hence why I have asked you 3 or 4 times now to provide a single instance of the Israelites believing in this one true God you have made up .... a concept that did not exist in the minds of the Israelites.

and NO - if one believes in many Gods .. but worships only one he is NOT a monotheist. He is a Henotheist .. or monolateralist. Monotheism = belief in the existence of only one God .. and so no choice to worship that God .. if one worships God .. This did not exist in the story until after the death of YHWH at the hands of God Marduk .. OK ... that is what the people witnessing the event believed .... Marduk kills YHWH .. destroying the place where is name resides.

but never mind monotheism not existing ... you can't even find a place where there is Monolatry ..or henotheism . The Israelites are Polytheist from beginning to end ..... with a very few engating in Henotheism .. and for very short periods of time that might have existed but we can't identify .. the Rest ... full on polytheism .. all the time .. read the book .. that is the main theme stated hundreds of times .. complaints about Israelites worshiping other Gods ..

what are you talking about "How do we know there are two sets of 10 commands" have you not read the book ? Your mission - should you choose to accept it .. read the 10 commands of Lord Jealous -

Exodus 34 Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 34 - New International Version

and then go find us the 10 commands of YHWH .. and explain which one is not like the other.
----------------------------------------------------

and last but not least "Why do we think there were other Gods in the Temple of YHWH" --- answer -- because the Bible tells us so as does Biblical Archaeology and History. There are many places in the Bible .. Ezekiel talking about some statue folks think is Baal ... called image of Jealousy ... but just look at what Hezekiah took out of the Temple .... what practices he banned ..

2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.[b])

-------------------------------
Do you know what the "High Places" are ? --- Child Sacrifice
Do you know what "Standing Stones" are ? ---- representations of both YHWH and other Gods
Do you know what "Asherah Poles" are ? --- if you guessed for worshiping YHWH's consort Asherah you would be correct

and one more question I won't answer for you because I don't know --- please tell me the purpose of the male prostitutes ?

Biblical Archaeology --- we have found other temples to YHWH .. having a standing stone not just for YHWH but a slightly smaller one right beside for the Goddess and consort Asherah .. interestingly .. they were burning Cannibis oil on top of these stones with Frankenscence .. a Good old Days Hot-Box.

and we have scripture from the Jews in Elephantine .. a Time Capsul of YHWH worship that survived to ~ 400 BC .. these poeple had come there from Israel in the 7th century to serve as mercs ... escaping the Assyrian Hoards ... relocating and builting a Temple in Elephantine Their traditions were worship of Asherah alongside YHWH ands daughter Anat ... which is an interesting diety .

And that is just for starters .. The Golden Calf is EL Bull-EL .. the Most high God and God of Abraham .. Father of YHWH .. and consort Asherah ... at which point you should be going "Hold on here " ... Incest is not Best .. is it ?

 

[Sumadji]

@Sargonski
The Tanakh holds the Sabbath observance central to Jewish monotheistic identity? From quite early times?