How can YHWH be the FATHER?

[IndigoChild5559]

@Sargonski
The Tanakh holds the Sabbath observance central to Jewish monotheistic identity? From quite early times?

I'm going to answer only for myself, as Jewish opinions on this vary so greatly. Although I'm observant (shabbat, kosher, holy days, etc.) my theology is extremely liberal. The discoveries of historians, archaeologists, and literary analysts weigh very heavily on my views. I find it meaningful to turn the Torah over and see it from many different angles, secular scholarship being one of them. Before I directly address your question, we need to review some necessary background.

The Tanakh can roughly be divided into two different ages. There are bronze age stories, and iron age stories.

With regards to the people and events in the bronze age stories, we do not find any corroborating evidence from outside sources. There are no ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah. There is no indication that Canaanite cities were conquered by Israelites. There is no Egyptian record of a Jewish exodus. That doesn't mean these stories didn't happen. But it would suggest that whatever actually happened got edited and embellished over time as the stories were orally passed down, and finally put into writing by iron age authors and editors.

The iron age stories, on the other hand, do have corroboration both from archaeology and from outside texts of that era. We know for example that Hezekiah was a real historical person. We know that the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah both existed. We know that the Jews went into captivity during the Babylonian empire. You get the idea.

So with that foundation, let's return to your question about when the Torah came into existence and when did keeping the Shabbat become the norm for Jews.

Jewish Shabbat keeping IS referred to in sources outside the Bible. The oldest so far is the Elephantine Papyri from the 5th century BCE.

I accept what textual analysts say about the Torah having many authors, whose works were later spliced together to form the Torah as we have it now. There are general themes that are so entrenched that they likely predate any text at all, the seven day week being one likely candidate. When the original texts were written is unknown, but the splicing seems to have happened over the course of several centuries. Most scholars say this happened during the Babylonian captivity, although there are some who believe the process started as early as reign of King Josiah of Judah in the 7th century BCE. The process was finished sometime during the Persian period.

However, having the texts and observing the laws are two very different things. Even the Biblical stories are replete with incidents of disobedience, violence, lack of compassion for the poor, and rampant idolatry. I realize that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Nevertheless I find it notable that the first archaeological evidence that the Torah laws were well known and widely observed didn't happen until the Maccabean era.

So, although we can't know when Jews first began keeping the Shabbat, we know that it goes back at least as far as the 5th century BCE, and it was certainly practiced on a wide scale by the Maccabean era.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Sargonski
The Tanakh holds the Sabbath observance central to Jewish monotheistic identity? From quite early times?

I'm going to answer only for myself, as Jewish opinions on this vary so greatly. Although I'm observant (shabbat, kosher, holy days, etc.) my theology is extremely liberal. The discoveries of historians, archaeologists, and literary analysts weigh very heavily on my views. I find it meaningful to turn the Torah over and see it from many different angles, secular scholarship being one of them. Before I directly address your question, we need to review some necessary background.

The Tanakh can roughly be divided into two different ages. There are bronze age stories, and iron age stories.

With regards to the people and events in the bronze age stories, we do not find any corroborating evidence from outside sources. There are no ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah. There is no indication that Canaanite cities were conquered by Israelites. There is no Egyptian record of a Jewish exodus. That doesn't mean these stories didn't happen. But it would suggest that whatever actually happened got edited and embellished over time as the stories were orally passed down, and finally put into writing by iron age authors and editors.

The iron age stories, on the other hand, do have corroboration both from archaeology and from outside texts of that era. We know for example that Hezekiah was a real historical person. We know that the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah both existed. We know that the Jews went into captivity during the Babylonian empire. You get the idea.

So with that foundation, let's return to your question about when the Torah came into existence and when did keeping the Shabbat become the norm for Jews.

Jewish Shabbat keeping IS referred to in sources outside the Bible. The oldest so far is the Elephantine Papyri from the 5th century BCE.

I accept what textual analysts say about the Torah having many authors, whose works were later spliced together to form the Torah as we have it now. There are general themes that are so entrenched that they likely predate any text at all, the seven day week being one likely candidate. When the original texts were written is unknown, but the splicing seems to have happened over the course of several centuries. Most scholars say this happened during the Babylonian captivity, although there are some who believe the process started as early as reign of King Josiah of Judah in the 7th century BCE. The process was finished sometime during the Persian period.

However, having the texts and observing the laws are two very different things. Even the Biblical stories are replete with incidents of disobedience, violence, lack of compassion for the poor, and rampant idolatry. I realize that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Nevertheless I find it notable that the first archaeological evidence that the Torah laws were well known and widely observed didn't happen until the Maccabean era.

So, although we can't know when Jews first began keeping the Shabbat, we know that it goes back at least as far as the 5th century BCE, and it was certainly practiced on a wide scale by the Maccabean era.

 

[Sargonski]

@Sargonski
The Tanakh holds the Sabbath observance central to Jewish monotheistic identity? From quite early times?

Sabbath observance has Zero (0) to do with monotheistic Identity ...

 

[1213]

The Israelites are Polytheist from beginning to end...

Yes, some of them have been. But, in Biblical point of view they should be monotheists, because in Biblical point of view only one true God exists.

and last but not least "Why do we think there were other Gods in the Temple of YHWH" --- answer -- because the Bible tells us so as does Biblical Archaeology and History.

How archaeology tells that?

Biblical Archaeology --- we have found other temples to YHWH .. having a standing stone not just for YHWH but a slightly smaller one right beside for the Goddess and consort Asherah .. interestingly .. they were burning Cannibis oil on top of these stones with Frankenscence .. a Good old Days Hot-Box.

Any link that shows images of those?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

last but not least "Why do we think there were other Gods in the Temple of YHWH" --- answer -- because the Bible tells us so as does Biblical Archaeology and History.

I see you are up to your usual nonsense.

In Josephus' The Jewish War, he records Pompey's entrance into the Jewish temple, and the things he found there. Not one idol is mentioned. In fact, there are some scholars who interpret this passage at expressing Pompey's surprise at this.

Were there times earlier in history where the Jews slid back into idolatry? Of course. But YOUR claim is that Jews have been polytheists from beginning to end. Clearly that is NOT the case. As I explained to you, the religion changed in Babylon from "There are many gods and YHWH is OUR god," to "There is only one God, and he is God of all the world."

Here is the Josephus text. You will want to scroll down to Book 1, Chapter 7.

Josephus: Of the War, Book I

penelope.uchicago.edu

 

[Sargonski]

I see you are up to your usual nonsense.

In Josephus' The Jewish War, he records Pompey's entrance into the Jewish temple, and the things he found there. Not one idol is mentioned. In fact, there are some scholars who interpret this passage at expressing Pompey's surprise at this.

Were there times earlier in history where the Jews slid back into idolatry? Of course. But YOUR claim is that Jews have been polytheists from beginning to end. Clearly that is NOT the case. As I explained to you, the religion changed in Babylon from "There are many gods and YHWH is OUR god," to "There is only one God, and he is God of all the world."

Here is the Josephus text. You will want to scroll down to Book 1, Chapter 7.

Josephus: Of the War, Book I

penelope.uchicago.edu

Holy Carp what preposterous made up strawman fallacy false accusation nonsense ... followed up with projection .. claiming what I have said is nonsense.

I never said there were idols in the Temple when the Romans showed up .. Nor did I ever say the Jews wer polytheistic from beginning to end.. The Israelites were Polytheistic from beginning to end .. Not the Jews .. The Jews do not exist during this time period .. Where are you getting this moronic made up nonsense from .. multiple strawman fallacies in one post .. then some ridiculous refutation to this made up accusation .. pretending this is a valid argument for something .. then the final cherry on top crying out that it is me who is up to usual nonsense.

The "usual nonsense " honor is all yours Brother Indi .. Let us take log out of own eye before projection your irrational and illogical nonsense onto others

 

[Sargonski]

Yes, some of them have been. But, in Biblical point of view they should be monotheists, because in Biblical point of view only one true God exists.

How archaeology tells that?

Any link that shows images of those?

Of course monotheism is the point of view of the redactors who redacted OT writings that they scrapped together ~ 400BC to 100 BC ... What Biblical view are you talking about ? .. Oh Sorry .. you don't have access to even that Biblical Perspective . Your is the perspective of the redactors who put together the MT - Masoretic Text - 700AD-1000AD who of course had a monotheistic perspective .. wiping most vestages of Polytheism out of the text to a greater degree than the redactions conducted 1000 years earlier.

Look .. we are not interested in the point of view of view of copyists in the dark ages of 800 AD .. nor the point of view of the redactors in 300 BC -- what we are interested in is the perspective of the Israelites singing the hymn in the Temple of YHWH in 900 BC - Psalm 82 .. that is the perspective we are after. .. and it is that one who believes in the existence of many Gods .. there is no one God .. true or otherwise .. there are many Gods .. and those that were worshiping YHWH .. did so in a way that was intertwined with many Gods .. as the Bible Tells us.

Here is a video of Tel Arad --- a Temple to Yahweh and Ashera in southern Judah .. They were burning cannibis in this temple ..

“A Temple to Yahweh and His Wife?” | BLP Connections: Tel Arad

The city of Arad is located West of the Dead Sea in Southern Israel. It served as an administrative center, with a fortress and temple. However, recent discoveries have shown that this temple had a disturbing blend of Israelite and pagan influences, even having a second altar apparently to a...

video.wvbs.org

Archaeologists Identify Traces of Burnt Cannabis in Ancient Jewish Shrine

New research suggests the mind-altering substance may have been widely used in the ritual practices of the Kingdom of Judah

www.smithsonianmag.com

We don't have pictures of the Idols at the Temple to YHWH at Elephantine but we have their holy scripture and letters from them . Here is the abstract of a Journal article on Elephantine religion

This contribution discusses the problem of the origin of the goddess Anat-Yahu and the related issue of the cultural background of the Jewish colony at Elephantine. It is argued that Anat-Yahu has been modeled after Anat-Bethel. Contrary to a current opinion, neither Bethel nor Anat-Bethel can be regarded as Phoenician gods. They are late Aramaean gods whose cult is confined to North Syria. Anat-Yahu must be regarded as an Aramaean creation, elicited by the identification of Yahu with Bethel. The latter identification was one of the results of the Aramaean migration to Samaria, either enforced or voluntary, at the end of the 8th century. The theory here proposed assumes that the Jews and Aramaeans of the colonies at Elephantine and Syene originated predominantly from Northern Israel. The ultimate origins of the Aramaean settlers go back to North Syria. The Jewish character of the Elephantine colony is secondary. It can be accounted for by the Judaean transit of Israelite colonists on their way to Egypt and the secondary influx of actual Judaeans. Yet, despite the common designation of the Elephantine colony as "Jewish", its religion is in fact Israelite. Anat-Yahu, Some Other Deities, and the Jews of Elephantine

 

[1213]

... What Biblical view are you talking about ?...

The continuing idea in the Bible that there is only one true God. Bible also shows that Jews often did not go by that and were punished.

...what we are interested in is the perspective of the Israelites singing the hymn in the Temple of YHWH in 900 BC - Psalm 82 ..

Yes, Bible tells that there were many that were called gods. However, as you can see, they are not like the one and true God, because they die like men.

God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods (=elohiym). "How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked?" Selah. "Defend the weak, the poor, and the fatherless. Maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy. Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked." They don't know, neither do they understand. They walk back and forth in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers." Arise, God, judge the earth, For you inherit all of the nations.
Ps. 82:1-8

Here is a video of Tel Arad --- a Temple to Yahweh and Ashera in southern Judah .. They were burning cannibis in this temple ..

The people who made the video? I don't deny that many Jews have done wrong things. It is unfortunate and it is against the Bible to worship other gods.

 

[Sargonski]

The continuing idea in the Bible that there is only one true God. Bible also shows that Jews often did not go by that and were punished.

Yes, Bible tells that there were many that were called gods. However, as you can see, they are not like the one and true God, because they die like men.

God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods (=elohiym). "How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked?" Selah. "Defend the weak, the poor, and the fatherless. Maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy. Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked." They don't know, neither do they understand. They walk back and forth in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers." Arise, God, judge the earth, For you inherit all of the nations.
Ps. 82:1-8

The people who made the video? I don't deny that many Jews have done wrong things. It is unfortunate and it is against the Bible to worship other gods.

You chose a poor translation - one that is borderline Pious Fraud which is unfortunate .. however , modern translations are making corrections which helps greately in our interpretation.

In verse 1 from the New English Translation we have YHWH (Elohim) stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

1) YHWH is not Presiding over the Assembly of the Gods .. YHWH is Standing among / before the Assembly of EL.
2) while it is a Great Assembly of the Gods being depicted ..it is a very specific Assembly that everyone in the Near East knows about .. Israelite, Moabite, Edomite, Ammonite, Canaanite, Phonecian, Greek, Hittite, Babylonian, Assyrian.

Everyone knows what the Assembly of EL is .. and that it is EL who Presides over the Assembly of EL .. this being one of the few times that the actual Name of the Most High God EL is used in the Bible. .. a named wiped clean out by the redactors of the pious fraud translation you provided.

So in verse 6 ... when YHWH says "You are all sons of the Most High" in his address to the divine council .. Who is the Most High YHWH is referring to ? .. ooops .. It can't really be YHWH can it .. YHWH is not the One True God being referred to .. EL is the one being referred to . not as the Only God as you have falsely suggested .. but of the Most High among the Gods....

The Israelites were Polytheistic / henotheistic .. start to finish .. never did they worship a One True God. .. this is an achronistic construct that does not fit on the page .. the Israelites had no such belief in this one true flying spaghetti monster you have created. Even if one worshiped only one God in Israelite times .. they believed in many Gods .. and as such the Bible must be read from the multi God Perspective .. not a "One God" pespective .. as that simply did not exist in the minds of the those listening to this song in the Temple of YHWH .. they all know who the Chief God of the Assembly of EL is. .. and all know about the 70 sons of EL that YHWH is referring to .. himself being one of those Sons of the Most High.

Thats what the Isralites believed .. regardless of whether or not you or I don't like their polytheistic perspective .. and nice to have corrected some Pious Fraud .

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The continuing idea in the Bible that there is only one true God. Bible also shows that Jews often did not go by that and were punished.

You're talking to the guy who said Adonai was a Greek word.

 

[1213]

You chose a poor translation...

Sorry, I think World English translation is one of the most accurate translations. But, it also is not perfect. In my opinion New English translation is misleading, which is why I think it is liked by atheists.

In verse 1 from the New English Translation we have YHWH (Elohim) stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

1) YHWH is not Presiding over the Assembly of the Gods .. YHWH is Standing among / before the Assembly of EL.
2) while it is a Great Assembly of the Gods being depicted ..it is a very specific Assembly that everyone in the Near East knows about .. Israelite, Moabite, Edomite, Ammonite, Canaanite, Phonecian, Greek, Hittite, Babylonian, Assyrian.

In this case you have a half good point. Now that I checked it, for example King James version has it like this:

God (elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (el); he judgeth among the gods (elohiym).
Ps. 82:1

Where I look that, it also shows the original words and there seems to be no word YHWH in the whole Ps. 82:1-8. The scripture uses only the general word el or elohiym, which in Biblical point of view is not the proper name of the God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

which is why I think it is liked by atheists.

I suspect I will regret asking, but what makes you think atheists care diddly squat about which bible translation anyone uses?

In this case you have a half good point. Now that I checked it, for example King James version has it like this:

God (elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (el); he judgeth among the gods (elohiym).
Ps. 82:1

Where I look that, it also shows the original words and there seems to be no word YHWH in the whole Ps. 82:1-8. The scripture uses only the general word el or elohiym, which in Biblical point of view is not the proper name of the God.

There are many ways that Jews address God. Even when YHWH is there in the text, we substitution Adonai (Lord) when we speak. After YHWH and Adonai, the next most common word is Elohim. The problem is, Elohim has MANY meanings. It can refer to the One God. It can refer to the many gods of the pagans. It can mean angels. It can mean judges. For example:
Psalm 8:5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels (Elohim)

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but since everyone shares their ideas in here, the translation I think makes the most sense for Psalm 82:1
A song of Asaph. God (Elohim) stands in the congregation of God (El); in the midst of the judges (elohim) He will judge.

 

[Sargonski]

Sorry, I think World English translation is one of the most accurate translations. But, it also is not perfect. In my opinion New English translation is misleading, which is why I think it is liked by atheists.

In this case you have a half good point. Now that I checked it, for example King James version has it like this:

God (elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (el); he judgeth among the gods (elohiym).
Ps. 82:1

Where I look that, it also shows the original words and there seems to be no word YHWH in the whole Ps. 82:1-8. The scripture uses only the general word el or elohiym, which in Biblical point of view is not the proper name of the God.

You need to go watch a youtube video on Verse 1 of Psalm 82 -- by credible scholar .. and there are many Heiser is good for this particular passage .. God rest his soul .. but any descent academic will do .. as that the identity of the Most High God in this passage is EL .. Most High God of the Canaanite Panteon .. which is the overwhelming scholarly concensus .. and thus translation congregation of the Mighty" is an act of Pious Fraud .. your claim of this an "accurate translation" just false in light of modern scholarship. .... and which you kind of go on to post

We have the actual proper name of a God given in this passage .. a well known God .. .. the Most High Cannanite God (but also the most high of everyone else in the region .. from Babylon around the crescent to the Phonecians and On down the levant to Egypt. Not only is this God well known .. but his Chiefdom over the divine council is also well known .. and believed in by everyone .. in one form or another. The point being that while you .. or I may be having trouble understanding what the "Assembly of EL" was .. no one in the Biblical lands suffered from the same affliction .. such that when this song was being Sung in one of the numerous Temples to YHWH .. no one askes what the Assembly of EL is .. because they believed that EL was the Most HIgh God in the Heavens.

Let it be understood that Modern theological Scholarship .. the mass overwhelming concensus ... sans the evangelical-fundamentalists of course but they don't count .. recognize "EL" as the God of Abraham . go look him up in Encyclopedia Britannica .. that is what it will tell you.



in conjunction with the name of a well known divine council which is named after the Chief God in heaven .. The Most high God . ands head of the council of divinities. Assembly of EL .. Council of EL .. Divine Council of EL .. take your pick it matters not so long as the assembly is named after EL .
n
So .. it matters not

 

[Sargonski]

Sorry, I think World English translation is one of the most accurate translations. But, it also is not perfect. In my opinion New English translation is misleading, which is why I think it is liked by atheists.

In this case you have a half good point. Now that I checked it, for example King James version has it like this:

God (elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (el); he judgeth among the gods (elohiym).
Ps. 82:1

Where I look that, it also shows the original words and there seems to be no word YHWH in the whole Ps. 82:1-8. The scripture uses only the general word el or elohiym, which in Biblical point of view is not the proper name of the God.

There are two uses of the word Elohim .. the first is singular .. the second is plural usage the first is understood to be YHWH .. the second is understood to be "The Gods" plural . This is just an ancient Hebrew script thing ..

In the song it is akin to "Our God Standeth in the Assembly of EL .. the Assembly of the Gods .. and "OUr God" of course is YHWH .. this song being sung in a temple of yhwh

same in verse 8 .. which should be written .. rise up Lord YHWH .. rather than Rise up O God ... as YHWH takes the position of chief God on earth.

ONe can NOT read the OT properly from a monotheistic perspective .. it is simply not how the people thought. The whole Joshua through Kings is about YHWH fighting these other "Sons of God" .. battle after battle .. YHWH even losing one of those battles to a YHWH - Like God named Chemosh .. God of the Moabites. This story in the Bible and the Moabite Stele .. both telling the same story of YHWH's defeat .. which is rather grisly in detail .. and it does not matter what you believe and think about the God Chemosh .. what the Israelites believes is that the God Chemosh defeated YHWH in a battle.

Do you understand .. The Israelites believed Chemosh defeated YHWH in a battle . Psalm 82 is about YHWH winning the War ..

 

[1213]

I suspect I will regret asking, but what makes you think atheists care diddly squat about which bible translation anyone uses?

Maybe not all atheists care about that. But, in my experience they usually use a translation that makes it more difficult to understand the text without problems.

There are many ways that Jews address God. Even when YHWH is there in the text, we substitution Adonai (Lord) when we speak. After YHWH and Adonai, the next most common word is Elohim. The problem is, Elohim has MANY meanings. It can refer to the One God. It can refer to the many gods of the pagans. It can mean angels. It can mean judges. For example:
Psalm 8:5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels (Elohim)

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but since everyone shares their ideas in here, the translation I think makes the most sense for Psalm 82:1
A song of Asaph. God (Elohim) stands in the congregation of God (El); in the midst of the judges (elohim) He will judge.

I think you have a good point, the word elohim can be difficult, because it has many meanings. That is why I think best way to understand the correct meaning is to read all scriptures in the Bible, in Bible context and let the Bible explain things.

And contextually I think the correct meaning of the Psalm 82 is that YHWH stands in the congregation, where many beings that are called gods are. I don't think the beings are humans, because it is said they die like humans, which to me indicates that they are something else.

 

[1213]

...because they believed that EL was the Most HIgh God in the Heavens.
...

And I think one of the names of the El is YHWH. They are the same.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And contextually I think the correct meaning of the Psalm 82 is that YHWH stands in the congregation, where many beings that are called gods are.

And by gods, who are you referring to? Baal? Marduk? Bel? Ashura?

 

[Sargonski]

And I think one of the names of the El is YHWH. They are the same.

I understand that in the story of YHWH standing in the assembly of EL - addressing the Sons of the Most High God .. and Father .. you believe that YHWH and EL .. are actually the same and so that would make these other Sons of God that YHWH defeats .. Son's of YHWH ?

OK .. but thats just wierd .. YHWH addressing and later putting to death his own Sons .. taking ownership of the whole world ,, but OK belief is belief

Thing is though .. this is not about what you think ..not about your belief .. but what who the folks hearing this song in the Temple of YHWH believed .. this is about their belief .. not your belief .. and what the Israelite in the Temple of YHWH believed was that there were many Gods .. and that these Gods would convene from time in what was called the Assembly of EL .. which everyone knew was an assembly of the Gods... and so these folks .. to a person .. believed the Great God EL .. who everyone knew very well -- even if they did not know YHWH they knew EL .. but at this point in tie everyone knew the National War God of Israel YHWH ..

What the Israelites believed is that EL was the Most High God in the Heavens .. who parcels out the land to his 70 sons .. YHWH's portion are the Israelites Deuteronomy 32:8. Then these sons battle Each City State having a Patron God in the beginning .. the Bible is a story about YHWH laying wast to these other Gods .. many battles .. even losing one of these battles to a different Son of EL named Chemosh .. YHWH eventually wins the war .. and usurps the position of EL as Chief God on Earth .. "Most High" but over the Earth .. El is still Most High in the Heavens .. then YHWH is later defeated by Marduk .. and that is the end of Lord YHWH..

but we are getting ahead of ourself .. regardless of what you or I think .. YHWH and EL were 100% Not the same God to the Israelites .. all of whome knew of and believed in a divine Pantheon .. headed up by EL .. not YHWH .. although El used to have dominion over the earth as well .. he gives this up as a prize for his Sons to battle for.

I told you before .. you can not view these stories from a monotheistic perspective ... while that may be your prespective .. it is not the perspectie of the Israelites .. who throughout their history .. believe in many Gods .. even those few who chose to worship only YHWH .. they believed in the existence of many other Gods ... Thats just how it was ..

 

[teage]

Sorry, I think World English translation is one of the most accurate translations. But, it also is not perfect. In my opinion New English translation is misleading, which is why I think it is liked by atheists.

In this case you have a half good point. Now that I checked it, for example King James version has it like this:

God (elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (el); he judgeth among the gods (elohiym).
Ps. 82:1

Where I look that, it also shows the original words and there seems to be no word YHWH in the whole Ps. 82:1-8. The scripture uses only the general word el or elohiym, which in Biblical point of view is not the proper name of th

I understand that in the story of YHWH standing in the assembly of EL - addressing the Sons of the Most High God .. and Father .. you believe that YHWH and EL .. are actually the same and so that would make these other Sons of God that YHWH defeats .. Son's of YHWH ?

OK .. but thats just wierd .. YHWH addressing and later putting to death his own Sons .. taking ownership of the whole world ,, but OK belief is belief

Thing is though .. this is not about what you think ..not about your belief .. but what who the folks hearing this song in the Temple of YHWH believed .. this is about their belief .. not your belief .. and what the Israelite in the Temple of YHWH believed was that there were many Gods .. and that these Gods would convene from time in what was called the Assembly of EL .. which everyone knew was an assembly of the Gods... and so these folks .. to a person .. believed the Great God EL .. who everyone knew very well -- even if they did not know YHWH they knew EL .. but at this point in tie everyone knew the National War God of Israel YHWH ..

What the Israelites believed is that EL was the Most High God in the Heavens .. who parcels out the land to his 70 sons .. YHWH's portion are the Israelites Deuteronomy 32:8. Then these sons battle Each City State having a Patron God in the beginning .. the Bible is a story about YHWH laying wast to these other Gods .. many battles .. even losing one of these battles to a different Son of EL named Chemosh .. YHWH eventually wins the war .. and usurps the position of EL as Chief God on Earth .. "Most High" but over the Earth .. El is still Most High in the Heavens .. then YHWH is later defeated by Marduk .. and that is the end of Lord YHWH..

but we are getting ahead of ourself .. regardless of what you or I think .. YHWH and EL were 100% Not the same God to the Israelites .. all of whome knew of and believed in a divine Pantheon .. headed up by EL .. not YHWH .. although El used to have dominion over the earth as well .. he gives this up as a prize for his Sons to battle for.

I told you before .. you can not view these stories from a monotheistic perspective ... while that may be your prespective .. it is not the perspectie of the Israelites .. who throughout their history .. believe in many Gods .. even those few who chose to worship only YHWH .. they believed in the existence of many other Gods ... Thats just how it was ..

that would be why yahweh did not have "True mana from heaven" Yeshua knew who yahweh was.

 

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I understand that in the story of YHWH standing in the assembly of EL - addressing the Sons of the Most High God .. and Father .. you believe that YHWH and EL .. are actually the same and so that would make these other Sons of God that YHWH defeats .. Son's of YHWH ?

I understand the Bible so that YHWH have many sons. Interestingly disciples of Jesus can also be counted as children of YHWH, because:

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

That shows son of God is not necessary in the same sense as normally son of man as in biological way. Here is another example of this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed: that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn’t commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can’t sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn’t do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn’t love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Bible shows there has been many son's of God, and some of them have wrong things and were not loyal to God. And I believe God defeated them, because they were doing bad things.

When men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, God’s sons saw that men’s daughters were beautiful, and they took any that they wanted for themselves as wives.
Gen. 6:1-2

Thing is though .. this is not about what you think ..not about your belief .. but what who the folks hearing this song in the Temple of YHWH believed .. this is about their belief .. not your belief .. and what the Israelite in the Temple of YHWH believed was that there were many Gods .. and that these Gods would convene from time in what was called the Assembly of EL .. which everyone knew was an assembly of the Gods... and so these folks .. to a person .. believed the Great God EL .. who everyone knew very well -- even if they did not know YHWH they knew EL .. but at this point in tie everyone knew the National War God of Israel YHWH ..

This seems to be about what you think the ancient people thought. And the problem is, there is no good reason to believe you know what they thought.

However, I can believe there have been many Jews who have done wrong things and kept other gods that they should not have kept. That doesn't men they were correct. Not it means that it is a Biblical idea to keep many gods. In Biblical point of view there is only one true God.

...then YHWH is later defeated by Marduk ..

Why do you think so?

but we are getting ahead of ourself .. regardless of what you or I think .. YHWH and EL were 100% Not the same God to the Israelites ..

Sorry, I don't see any good reason to believe that.