How can you believe in God? And of the suffering earth.

[cardero]

Morning Star writes: I’m sure this has been asked before but how can you justify your faith when so much suffering is in this world?

STEP ONE: Get Out From Under The Faith.
Humankind has been equipped with the intelligence and the means to put an end to their own suffering. Knowledge and understanding is the key to overcome suffering, not hope or faith.

STEP TWO: Stop pointing the finger of blame at GOD.

GOD is not our Father, our babysitter or Superman. It is reasonable to assume that GOD didn’t start the fire and it is safe to presume He is not going to put it out.

STEP THREE: Start looking for alternative perspectives and solutions to why things are the way they are.

 

[morning-star]

Good point - thanks.

well what where you going to say for the third option?

Aside, I wasn't getting on you are anything... I was more laughing at my reaction What? food? What food was meant to wipe out thousands and thousands... and DON'T LET ME EAT IT

LOL yeah i know.....

:takeabow: <<--- I'm slightly scared by this guy

 

[Scuba Pete]

The cobbler gets heated and says, "Hey, you can't blame me for that. It's not my fault they don't come to me for help.".

My son turned 18 last month and he is a senior in High School. So this morning he got all upset about not having any jeans to wear. Apparently, he blamed his mother for this atrocity.

So I asked him why it was mom's fault. Why on earth would you hold your dear mother responsible for your dirty jeans.

"She always takes care of my jeans"
"Do you have a notarized contract stipulating that she is responsible for this?"
"No, she just DOES it!"
"Who wears the jeans?"
"I do! What does this have to do with it?"
"The person who wears the jeans is responsible for them being clean."

We see God as some sort of cosmological bell hop. Hey God... I need a ________! Put it on my tab.

In the Old Testament we see God being blamed for wars and all sorts of atrocities and why? Like my son, they just assume that God's only reason to exist is to act on their every whim. So, it doesn't surprise me that the kids are blaming dad again. Hey, why take responsibility when you can so easily shift it on to God.

Epilogue: my son went to school in his dirty jeans. Mom went on strike last week and told him that he had to clean his own clothes from here on out. Of course, he claims that she really could not have meant this. Today, jean-boy learned a lesson about the bitter realities of life: people often mean what they say!

 

[Hema]

I’m sure this has been asked before but how can you justify your faith when so much suffering is in this world? I know it’s all down to humans actions etc. but if your God is all loving then why don’t he stop it? If he sacrificed his own son for our sins don’t you agree it’s had no affect on people whatsoever? And how can he sacrifice his only son anyway how could he let him go through so much pain and torment? That is just plain cruel if you ask me.


And another thing how can humans be so stupid? We brought all this suffering, hatred and pain to ourselves. We are rapping and destroying the thing that thing that keeps us alive; the earth. Do we really value greed for land and oil over life? Some religious faiths talk of giving love to all etc. but never practice it themselves.

Put your hand up if you really believe in unconditional love and not just saying that because you feel it’s the right thing to say. Put your hand up if you send your love to everyone who suffers to everyone on this earth. Because I know I bloody well do.

**raises hand** When I meditate or pray I extend the love I receive all over the world. You are right that humans brought this suffering unto themselves. God is manifest in each one of us but because many are so materialistic, we forget our true nature. God's work is supposed to be demonstrated through humanity. We, as manifestations of God are supposed to help each other and not allow others to suffer. It is our duty! God should be asking us why we are allowing our brothers and sisters to suffer.

Sorry to make this corny joke now but your post said that:
"We are rapping and destroying the thing that thing that keeps us alive; the earth."

I'm also not into rap music too much.

 

[morning-star]

STEP ONE: Get Out From Under The Faith.
Humankind has been equipped with the intelligence and the means to put an end to their own suffering. Knowledge and understanding is the key to overcome suffering, not hope or faith.

STEP TWO: Stop pointing the finger of blame at GOD.

GOD is not our Father our babysitter or Superman. It is reasonable to assume that GOD didn’t start the fire and it is safe to presume He is not going to put it out.

STEP THREE: Start looking for alternative perspectives and solutions to why things are the way they are.

1) you are 100% correct. many people are just to ignorant to do so, and realy on 'God' to do the work for them.

2)I'm not blaming God, i just asked how people can justify why they believe in God when he does or doesn't do things to help etc.

I don't belive there is one God i believe that there is more than one God/entitys and we have the power within ourselves to become gods of your own lives.

3) I blame; ignorance and hatred, for the suffering in this world.

 

[UnTheist]

You shouldn't blame God. But you can't blame all Humans either. Nature also causes some of the disasters as well...

 

[Halcyon]

In the Old Testament we see God being blamed for wars and all sorts of atrocities and why? Like my son, they just assume that God's only reason to exist is to act on their every whim.

I think this is more to do with the theology of the people who wrote the Old Testrament books, and how it changed over time. I think there were periods - the invasion of Canaan, the exile, reign of Kind David etc - where people did see God as responsible for wars, for organising them, commanding individuals to orchestrate certain events - God was like a man playing Risk in those days, similar to how the Greeks saw their Gods playing with the lives of mortals like a game.

Our "modern" view of god comes from the later NT times when God is a far more distant and all-encompassing being, influenced by Platonic thought, His role more as the God of the world rather than the God of the Jews alone as it was in David's time.

 

[morning-star]

**raises hand** When I meditate or pray I extend the love I receive all over the world. You are right that humans brought this suffering unto themselves. God is manifest in each one of us but because many are so materialistic, we forget our true nature. God's work is supposed to be demonstrated through humanity. We, as manifestations of God are supposed to help each other and not allow others to suffer. It is our duty! God should be asking us why we are allowing our brothers and sisters to suffer.

Sorry to make this corny joke now but your post said that:
"We are rapping and destroying the thing that thing that keeps us alive; the earth."

I'm also not into rap music too much.

no matter that faith if you believe in love then that good enough....


and I'm alowed to make spelling mistakes i have mild dyslexia....so meh (if i could find a 'meh' smiley there would be one here lol)

 

[Hema]

no matter that faith if you believe in love then that good enough....


and I'm alowed to make spelling mistakes i have mild dyslexia....so meh (if i could find a 'meh' smiley there would be one here lol)

Oh my God, I feel so bad, this is so embarassing. I'm soooooo terribly sorry. :foot: Did I say sorry? Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. **goes down on knees** Please don't feel bad, I really meant it as a joke. :sorry1:

Not to change the subject or anything, but I also believe in love. Sai Baba says that there is only one religion - the religion of love. My daddy says that we can close all the religious texts right now and live with love - that is what God wants.

Okay, now that I've said that - back to what I was saying before: sorry, sorry, sorry. Gosh, I feel so bad. I never ever make fun of people. Please tell me if I offended you...I'm setting up to cry - seriously! :sad:

 

[Scuba Pete]

God was like a man playing Risk in those days, similar to how the Greeks saw their Gods playing with the lives of mortals like a game.

I respectfully disagree. God didn't change his mind all of a sudden and become a loving God during the NT period. Just like my son blamed his mother, the writers of the OT blamed God for their own actions. Which sounds better? "I hate the Philistines" or "God has ordered us to CRUSH the Philistines"???

Man alone has the ability to take anything and twist it to his own advantage. Look at how many Holy wars that have been waged by Christendom. People are bitter towards God because of all of these atrocities. WHO COULD BLAME THEM??? They see the people who CLAIM to believe in a benevolent God raping, murdering and pillaging all in the name of their God.

Yeah, it's the same ol' story,
Ever since the world began!
Every body's got the runs for glory,
No body stops to scrutinize the plan!
No one stops to scrutinize the plan!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

well what where you going to say for the third option?

No God(s). There is also the (4th) view that concepts such as 'perfection' are human judgements and that applying such attributions to God is little more that anthropomorphic projection.

In either case, the Book of Job fully deserves all of the attention that it has received.

 

[Halcyon]

I respectfully disagree.

Well, so long as its respectful i guess i can allow it .

God didn't change his mind all of a sudden and become a loving God during the NT period. Just like my son blamed his mother, the writers of the OT blamed God for their own actions. Which sounds better? "I hate the Philistines" or "God has ordered us to CRUSH the Philistines"???

These concepts have been argued since the time of Marcion and before. People have seen the distinction between the God of the OT and the God of the NT since the NT's inception.
It's taken 2,000 years of theological wrangling to get to the point where most of Christendom has reconciled the two in their minds, yet the distinction is still debated today - by those from outside Christendom who read the Bible and see the difference in theology between the two, which means for all that wrangling, the distinction is still very clear to the uninitiated.

And it boils down to the way the people of the OT saw their God, and the people of the NT saw theirs.
You ask which is better;

"I hate the Philistines" or "God has ordered us to CRUSH the Philistines"

I would say neither is better, but that they reflect the differing theologies of the separate time periods. The Torah writers would have agreed with the second, NT Christians and beyond would probably agree with the first, but say it is wrong to do so (to hate).

From my perspective i would say that God has changed, and so have people's views of him - perhaps they are one and the same?

 

[Super Universe]

Why won't God stop the suffering? Because it's not about you. The universe is not about making humans happy, if it were then there would be no suffering but the trade is that you would then be a robot without choice.

Nothing in the 3rd dimension lasts. The earth will not last, even our sun will not last. For selfish reasons people want the earth to be a paradise when a lasting paradise already exists in heaven.

Why would God waste effort in building another paradise so far from home? This place is not your home, it is a temporary experience. You are supposed to learn from it and ascend.

Also, if humans really wanted to stop all suffering. We could do it in about a month's time.

 

[morning-star]

Oh my God, I feel so bad, this is so embarassing. I'm soooooo terribly sorry. :foot: Did I say sorry? Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. **goes down on knees** Please don't feel bad, I really meant it as a joke. :sorry1:

Not to change the subject or anything, but I also believe in love. Sai Baba says that there is only one religion - the religion of love. My daddy says that we can close all the religious texts right now and live with love - that is what God wants.

Okay, now that I've said that - back to what I was saying before: sorry, sorry, sorry. Gosh, I feel so bad. I never ever make fun of people. Please tell me if I offended you...I'm setting up to cry - seriously! :sad:

whoah chill peace it's ok. I found the joke funny. The 'meh' is a sort of childish glare, I'm used to people commenting about my spelling i find it amussing lol. it really is fine honest.

aawww pease don't cry....

 

[Hema]

whoah chill peace it's ok. I found the joke funny. The 'meh' is a sort of childish glare, I'm used to people commenting about my spelling i find it amussing lol. it really is fine honest.

aawww pease don't cry....

**removing hands from over eyes** Whew! Okay, I'm not going to cry. What a gigantic relief this is. Oh, so that's what "meh" is. Caribbean people talk broken english - but can talk proper english if we want. It's sort of a dialect we have. In Trinidad we use the word "meh." For example - "leave meh alone!"

 

[morning-star]

**removing hands from over eyes** Whew! Okay, I'm not going to cry. What a gigantic relief this is. Oh, so that's what "meh" is. Caribbean people talk broken english - but can talk proper english if we want. It's sort of a dialect we have. In Trinidad we use the word "meh." For example - "leave meh alone!"

lol meh to me canbe a sort of netral shrug or a 'sticks out toung childishly' sort of thing. I don't really know what it's supposed to mean lol.

 

[Hema]

lol meh to me canbe a sort of netral shrug or a 'sticks out toung childishly' sort of thing. I don't really know what it's supposed to mean lol.

I know what you mean...sort of like this -

 

[Scuba Pete]

Well, so long as its respectful i guess i can allow it .

Why shouldn't it be?

And it boils down to the way the people of the OT saw their God, and the people of the NT saw theirs.

Ah grasshopper, you have snatched the pebble from my hand.

You ask which is better;

No, actually, I asked which "sounds" better, ie more emphatic. If you are going rouse the rabble, you had best put your game face on and start talking like you were shrub or Cheney initiating Haliburton's war.

I would say neither is better,

Good for you! Neither is good!

but that they reflect the differing theologies of the separate time periods. The Torah writers would have agreed with the second, NT Christians and beyond would probably agree with the first, but say it is wrong to do so (to hate).

Again, I respectfully disagree. The OT is an "eye for an eye" while the NT is "turn the other cheek". The two phrases I gave in my previous post were based on the very same emotion: hate. The second was a human embellishment designed to incite a war.

From my perspective i would say that God has changed, and so have people's views of him - perhaps they are one and the same?

As I remember the media accounts during the lead up to Haliburton's war, it occurs to me that while the truth didn't change, our perception of it surely did. The same is true for God. The OT and the NT are man's blogs as he tries to figure who this God guy is. There are a ton of erroneous conclusions that the authors have drawn concerning who God is and what he is willing to do. He is not the genocidal maniac that these OT authors would have us believe.

 

[Halcyon]

The OT and the NT are man's blogs as he tries to figure who this God guy is. There are a ton of erroneous conclusions that the authors have drawn concerning who God is and what he is willing to do.

He is not the genocidal maniac that these OT authors would have us believe.

I think we're going to have to respectfully agree to respectfully disagree on this one Pete , as we see things quite differently and i'm not sure either of us is going to budge.

I don't see the OT authors as being wrong in their view of God, no more than i see the NT authors as being wrong for changing that view.
I see it as two very different ways of viewing a deity that meant very different things to these two peoples living in very different times - possibly even to extent that the two views cannot truly be reconciled to be expressing belief in the same deity.

 

[Scuba Pete]

As they say, perception is everything.