How can you literally believe...

[Muffled]

So no praying goes on in the Vatican ?.

I believe prayer can happen anywhere. (I've prayed while on the toilet) but that doesn't make the place a house of prayer.

 

[metis]

I believe prayer can happen anywhere. (I've prayed while on the toilet) but that doesn't make the place a house of prayer.

So, the church in the Vatican is not a "house of prayer", iyo?

 

[psychoslice]

I believe prayer can happen anywhere. (I've prayed while on the toilet) but that doesn't make the place a house of prayer.

If you are praying in a house then its a house of prayer, so there.

 

[Muffled]

So, the church in the Vatican is not a "house of prayer", iyo?

I believe this comes down to a matter of sanctification. The temple in Jerusalem was sanctioned by God to be a house of prayer. I have no information as to whether that has happened with the Vatican. It would seem reasonable to view the Vatican as sanctified by the presence of the pope but my understanding is that it is also used for church business. However there may be a house of prayer inside the Vatican separate from the business offices. That is the way it is with the protestant church. within the edifice there may be a sanctuary and a business office and sometimes a room for socialization. However even the temple in Jerusalem had its divisions. The business of money changing took place outside the sanctuary there. I believe Jesus had more of a problem with the way people were treated than with what they were doing. So even though the outer courts were places of business in the temple it was still inconsistent with the temple's purpose to be mistreating people.

Lu 19:46 saying unto them, It is written, And my house shall be a house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of robbers.

 

[metis]

I believe this comes down to a matter of sanctification. The temple in Jerusalem was sanctioned by God to be a house of prayer. I have no information as to whether that has happened with the Vatican. It would seem reasonable to view the Vatican as sanctified by the presence of the pope but my understanding is that it is also used for church business. However there may be a house of prayer inside the Vatican separate from the business offices. That is the way it is with the protestant church. within the edifice there may be a sanctuary and a business office and sometimes a room for socialization. However even the temple in Jerusalem had its divisions. The business of money changing took place outside the sanctuary there. I believe Jesus had more of a problem with the way people were treated than with what they were doing. So even though the outer courts were places of business in the temple it was still inconsistent with the temple's purpose to be mistreating people.

Lu 19:46 saying unto them, It is written, And my house shall be a house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of robbers.

So, do you honestly believe that exchanges of money are not found in pretty much all churches? And didn't Paul raise money for the Jerusalem church?

BTW, the Luke citation refers to the fact that there was a rip-off on exchanging Roman currency for what would be allowed to be used at the Temple, and this was a form of Roman taxation to especially pay for their projects.

 

[Muffled]

So, do you honestly believe that exchanges of money are not found in pretty much all churches? And didn't Paul raise money for the Jerusalem church?

BTW, the Luke citation refers to the fact that there was a rip-off on exchanging Roman currency for what would be allowed to be used at the Temple, and this was a form of Roman taxation to especially pay for their projects.

i believe it has not been my experience that churches rob people. Anyplace I have been money was freely given. On the other hand I have heard of Roman Catholic churches charging dues.

I believe he solicited money for ministerial purposes but those solicited were free to give or not give.

I wouldn't doubt for a minute that the Romans had a hand in it but like regular taxation the person collecting often became wealthy doing so and that would have been the High Priest in the case of temple ripoffs although the people doing the transactions probably got a small cut out of that.

 

[metis]

i believe it has not been my experience that churches rob people. Anyplace I have been money was freely given. On the other hand I have heard of Roman Catholic churches charging dues.

I believe he solicited money for ministerial purposes but those solicited were free to give or not give..

Since my wife is Catholic and I attend mass weekly with her, I have not been in any RCC church that charges dues. I do know that some in the past would expect at least a certain amount, depending on one's income, which is at least somewhat understandable in order to keep some people from freeloading.

BTW, my synagogue, and probably most other synagogues, do charge dues for the reason above. And many Protestant churches expect tithing.

So, do you attend any church at all and, if so, which denomination if any is it affiliated with?

 

[bobhikes]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

These things all happen today.
Depending on how you determine a persons death heart or brain waves we have machines that can revive you. Many people claim life after death encounters.
A corpse back from the dead is a misdiagnosed corpse. It happens less with today's equipment but still happens. It was far more common 100 years ago.
There are many video's of people walking on water today mostly magicians. Jesus never said he walked on water's others perceived it as such. Perhaps he was just walking on something covered by water.
There are many stories today of people diagnosed with ailments that are no longer there at the next checkup check the internet. A favorite of mine written in a science magazine was about a man diagnosed with terminal cancer given 6 months to live. He decided to go back to his country(Italy) and live out his last days. The article was done on the man's 100th birthday. He had outlived all the doctors that diagnosed him.
We can can the weather to an extent(seeding the clouds, CO2 pollution) air conditioning, heaters, fans. It may not be long towards the future we can do far more.
Ascending into heaven(What does that mean?) Its never clearly explained so would be hard to defend.