How climate change alarmism laws are unconstitutional

[anotherneil]

There is no need to rebut bold empty claims.

I can agree with this statement, but you neglect to provide anything supporting its spceific relevancy to anything I have posted.

Which means your OP is not an argument.

Non sequitur.

It appears to be nothing more than an emotional rant.

Well, I thank you for your feedback; now, why does it appear to be nothing more than an emotional rant?

 

[McBell]

Well, I thank you for your feedback; now, why does it appear to be nothing more than an emotional rant?

When the government imposes, "carbon" taxes, bans ICE vehicles, gas-powered items (stoves, water heaters, home heating systems, etc.), coal-fired power stations, etc., and imposes fines for violating such laws, and they're doing it on the basis of climate change alarmism, then it's unconstitutional.

Here is a claim.
One I actually agree with.
However, that is where it stops.
It implies that perhaps this is being done ("and they're doing it on the basis of climate change alarmism,") but that is it.

It infringes on the 1st clause of the 1st Amendment, which prohibits merger of church and state.

ONLY if it is a religious claim.
Are you saying that climate change laws are based solely on religious claims?
Which religion(s)?
Which specific claims?

With climate change alarmism, it involves the claim that we must make sacrifices and pay "carbon" taxes, or else we'll all burn up from global warming; that's essentially no different from any conventional religion saying "pay for your sins or you'll burn in hell."

Source please.

I mean, please present where this "religion" has made the claim "we must make sacrifices and pay "carbon" taxes, or else we'll all burn up from global warming".


Like I said, you have presented a list of claims.
But have not supported any of said claims.

 

[anotherneil]

Lol @ the OP- holy empty rhetoric, Batman! As if calling climate scientists "alarmists" or "religious" changes the underlying facts. And is religion really supposed to be pejorative on religiousforums.com? Many of us were born during the day but that doesn't mean we were born yesterday.

Yes, this. And claims made with no basis can be rejected equally easily.

I guess the idea here is to try to trick anyone who reads this post to gain the false impression that I'm calling climate scientists "alarmists", that I'm calling science a religion, and that I'm using religion as a pejorative. Anyone who actually paid attention to what I wrote, or at least doesn't fall for this ruse, will be able to see that I am not calling climate scientists "alarmists", I am not calling science a religion, and I'm not using religion as a pejorative. I'll simply let exhibit A (the OP content) speak for itself.

The climate change alarmists are the big media outlets that are run by crony capitalists, the non-expert celebrities (actors, musicians, comedians, etc.), politicians, and political activists who are promoting the climate change hysteria narrative.

My position on the subject of climate science comes directly from the climate scientists - the subject matter experts themselves.

The narrative by the climate change alarmists doesn't match what the scientists say.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is not an argument, and it's not helpful or useful to me. If you wish to provide a rebuttal to my OP argument, then please do so.

No argument to rebut.

 

[anotherneil]

Your topic, your thread, your OP... your burden of proof, which pretty clearly wasn't met by your OP (or subsequent non-reply replies)

Not an argument, not a rebuttal. Yes, my topic, my thread, my OP, my burden of proof, and the proof is there. The only thing I left out was QED.

 

[Wandering Monk]

I guess the idea here is to try to trick anyone who reads this post to gain the false impression that I'm calling climate scientists "alarmists", that I'm calling science a religion, and that I'm using religion as a pejorative. Anyone who actually paid attention to what I wrote, or at least doesn't fall for this ruse, will be able to see that I am not calling climate scientists "alarmists", I am not calling science a religion, and I'm not using religion as a pejorative. I'll simply let exhibit A (the OP content) speak for itself.

The climate change alarmists are the big media outlets that are run by crony capitalists, the non-expert celebrities (actors, musicians, comedians, etc.), politicians, and political activists who are promoting the climate change hysteria narrative.

My position on the subject of climate science comes directly from the climate scientists - the subject matter experts themselves.

The narrative by the climate change alarmists doesn't match what the scientists say.

Oh, I get it. You were just being subtle. LOL

 

[McBell]

The only thing I left out was QED.

And all the math leading up to your "QED"....

 

[Guitar's Cry]

5th OP paragraph.

"If there really is some sort of worldwide desire by all (or most) nations and the UN to (as they put it) "combat" climate change, then they'd be accommodating to at least allowing people living in places that are being affected by adverse changes in the environment to take mitigating action such as relocating."

"Allowing relocation" is the only suggestion. How's that supposed to mitigate climate change?

The fact that there is scientific data to support the impacts of climate change is in line with what I wrote in the 2nd OP paragraph, and that isn't my generalization - that honor goes to the crony capitalists behind the propaganda curtain, along with their unwitty climate change alarmist minions.

But that's not what the scientists are saying.

Straw man.

Nope. Your argument hinges on climate change legislation being a "religion," and this violates the 1st Amendment. In order to make this argument, you need to be able to define religion in a way that makes sense according to the 1st Amendment and how it would relate to the predictions of climate change science. This appears to be both an unsound and invalid argument.

Those who want to want to impose a sin tax or ban on things like gas, oil, coal, conventional power plants, and ICE vehicles because they believe that everything will be fine if we make such sacrifices as though the only reason climate change exists is because of human activity are trying to use the government to impose their religion.

Nope. These technologies pose actual physical dangers even beyond their impact on the climate.

As human population grows, our technology develops, and our globalization expands, we need to accept more restraints on how we use resources.

To reiterate what I already covered in the OP, the climate has been changing ever since the planet developed an atmosphere. Both natural events and biological entities - every single one of them - can and do have an impact on changing the climate, including changes to climate change. If no life had ever existed on this planet, the climate would be completely different from what it is now.

There's the strawman. Of course climate changes naturally. That's no reason to ignore our own impact on it.

It is incorrect to believe that there won't be any climate change without the use of gas, coal, and oil, and one of the purposes of the 1st clause of the 1st Amendment is to protect people from such beliefs, just like it's there to protect virgins from being sacrificed by being tossed into that angry volcano.

Can you show that this was the purpose of the 1st clause? It seems more likely that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." makes more sense when discussing spiritual beliefs rather than scientific concepts.

The dangers of fossil fuel use are well-established.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh, I get it. You were just being subtle. LOL

i just thought the post was dumb.

 

[F1fan]

It is a well-established scientific fact that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, and it is well-known that human activity can and does produce carbon dioxide; same goes with some other greenhouse gases, such as methane.

I don't think there's any significant objection to the position that climate change is real, it does impact the environment, it is partially caused by human activity, and it has been happening ever since the planet formed an atmosphere.

However, the doom and gloom being projected by the climate change alarmists is not in fact a well-established scientific fact. It entails predictions that are not well-rooted in the scientific method; for instance, science involves observation and repeatability, and with predictions of human-caused global warming reaching achieving, and exceeding disastrous & catastrophic levels, such observations have not yet occurred (thus have not yet been repeated). The main fundamental trait of science is that a theory can be falsified; how does one falsify something that hasn't been observed, yet?

BTW yes, I get that it's desirable to avoid a disaster or catastrophe if possible, and I'm not saying that individuals shouldn't be able to make whatever personal decisions they want to make regarding human-caused global warming or climate change.

If there really is some sort of worldwide desire by all (or most) nations and the UN to (as they put it) "combat" climate change, then they'd be accommodating to at least allowing people living in places that are being affected by adverse changes in the environment to take mitigating action such as relocating.

The point is that there's more than one way to deal with a problem other than government-imposed bans, fines, taxes, etc.

When the government imposes, "carbon" taxes, bans ICE vehicles, gas-powered items (stoves, water heaters, home heating systems, etc.), coal-fired power stations, etc., and imposes fines for violating such laws, and they're doing it on the basis of climate change alarmism, then it's unconstitutional.

It infringes on the 1st clause of the 1st Amendment, which prohibits merger of church and state.

With climate change alarmism, it involves the claim that we must make sacrifices and pay "carbon" taxes, or else we'll all burn up from global warming; that's essentially no different from any conventional religion saying "pay for your sins or you'll burn in hell."

This comes off as humorous, with an absurd punchline.

 

[Quintessence]

I mean, if the OP had argued this from the position of nature-based religions like my own - where prioritizing the flourishing of non-human persons is given at least an equal priority to that of human persons - I could almost see the argument (minus the "burning in hell" part which is really not part of nature-based religions in the slightest). But they haven't, and they didn't. Even if they had, this country is so far behind on sensible environmental policy the argument holds water like a sieve. It'll be there for a while, but after you breathe for a few minutes it's all run to ground.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Lol @ the OP- holy empty rhetoric, Batman! As if calling climate scientists "alarmists" or "religious" changes the underlying facts. And is religion really supposed to be pejorative on religiousforums.com? Many of us were born during the day but that doesn't mean we were born yesterday.

I'm just looking forward to the staff of climate change advocacy organizations getting parsonage exemptions.

 

[anotherneil]

Here is a claim.
One I actually agree with.
However, that is where it stops.
It implies that perhaps this is being done ("and they're doing it on the basis of climate change alarmism,") but that is it.


ONLY if it is a religious claim.
Are you saying that climate change laws are based solely on religious claims?
Which religion(s)?
Which specific claims?


Source please.

I mean, please present where this "religion" has made the claim "we must make sacrifices and pay "carbon" taxes, or else we'll all burn up from global warming".


Like I said, you have presented a list of claims.
But have not supported any of said claims.

Here's one example of such rhetoric from the Pope:

Pope Francis takes on climate deniers, 'irresponsible' Americans in new climate letter

Pope Francis on Oct. 4 released a new document taking direct aim at climate change deniers and castigating Western nations, particularly the United States, for "irresponsible lifestyle[s]" causing irreparable harm to the planet.

www.ncronline.org

Just FYI - I was raised Roman Catholic, in case anyone might get the idea that I'm some sort of hater of Roman Catholicism. I don't hate it, I simply chose to not be religious, which means I don't attend church services, I don't participate in taking Holy Communion, confessing sins to a priest, etc.

Anyhow, I'm speaking much more broadly than formal brand name religious organizations; I'm referring to it in the general notion of religious behavior. Who ever said that religion is only manifested in the form of formal brand name religious organizations, and that "an establishment of religion" has to have a brand name, or a label, or a leader, or a website, etc? Climate change alarmism is well-established, and I pointed out how it has the characteristics of a religion.

Climate change alarmism comes from many directions and many types of venues, such as politicians, talking heads in the media, celebrities, activists, etc. Here are a few examples of the most notable individuals & it only scratches the surface:

Al Gore:

Environmental activism of Al Gore - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Former Vice President Al Gore

Former Vice President Al Gore

www.climaterealityproject.org

The Climate Reality Project — Al Gore

The Climate Reality Project

algore.com

AOC:

Climate

The Congresswoman’s first piece of legislation was the Green New Deal. Like President Roosevelt’s New Deal, the Green New Deal would create millions of jobs preparing our country for the impacts of climate change and transitioning our national energy grid to renewable sources.

ocasio-cortez.house.gov

AOC Gave a Powerful Speech About the Green New Deal

“Today is a big day for people who have been left behind."

www.teenvogue.com

Greta Thunberg:

Greta Thunberg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Teen activist Greta Thunberg arrives in New York by boat, putting ‘climate crisis’ in spotlight | United Nations

www.un.org

Celebrities:

'We Are at a Tipping Point': Celebrities Who Are Saving the Earth (and How They're Doing It)

Jaden Smith, Robert Redford and BTS prove that age and geography don't matter — climate change is a problem we all need to fix together

people.com

25 Climate Movers and Shakers in Entertainment

From Don Cheadle to James Cameron to Shailene Woodley, entertainment’s environmental warriors are leading the charge.

variety.com

Bill Nye:

What’s the fastest way to slow global warming? Bill Nye has the answer.

Watch Bill Nye The Science Guy explain in his funny, smart way what methane is and how cutting emissions can be an effective climate change solution.

www.edf.org

Documentary

Bill Nye is a man on a mission: to stop the spread of anti-scientific thinking across the world.

www.billnye.com

The Way We Talk About Climate Change Matters, Bill Nye Says (Published 2022)

In Monday’s puzzle, “Nye” was the answer to the clue “Bill known as the ‘Science Guy.’”

www.nytimes.com

Bernie Sanders:

The Green New Deal | Bernie Sanders Official Website

The climate crisis is not only the single greatest challenge facing our country; it is also our single greatest opportunity to build a more just and equitable future, but we must act immediately.

berniesanders.com

Climate change is a threat to the planet: We must address it » Senator Bernie Sanders

We can still avoid the worst impacts of climate change, save money, and make energy grid more resilient By: Bernie Sanders; Fox News Obviously, climate change is not real. I’ve heard, you’ve heard, “expert” after “expert” telling us for years how climate change is a “fraud.” We’ve heard from...

www.sanders.senate.gov

 

[anotherneil]

No argument to rebut.

Valid & sound arguments can fit this description.

 

[sayak83]

I guess the idea here is to try to trick anyone who reads this post to gain the false impression that I'm calling climate scientists "alarmists", that I'm calling science a religion, and that I'm using religion as a pejorative. Anyone who actually paid attention to what I wrote, or at least doesn't fall for this ruse, will be able to see that I am not calling climate scientists "alarmists", I am not calling science a religion, and I'm not using religion as a pejorative. I'll simply let exhibit A (the OP content) speak for itself.

The climate change alarmists are the big media outlets that are run by crony capitalists, the non-expert celebrities (actors, musicians, comedians, etc.), politicians, and political activists who are promoting the climate change hysteria narrative.

My position on the subject of climate science comes directly from the climate scientists - the subject matter experts themselves.

The narrative by the climate change alarmists doesn't match what the scientists say.

Ok.
I am a climate scientist.
What is your question?
In general scientists have consensus that our current curbs and policies are inadequate to avoid human caused catastrophic climate change by the end of this century and more stringent actions are way overdue.
Do you wish me to refer to academic papers on this matter?

 

[anotherneil]

Oh, I get it. You were just being subtle. LOL

By calling out spin or misleading material? I don't think so.

BTW, you just engaged in your own spin with this attempt to smear me with claims of being subtle.

I can't tell how anyone will try to twist my words until after I see them so I can point out that they're being twisted.

 

[anotherneil]

And all the math leading up to your "QED"....

Math for what? How does arguing that laws based on climate change alarmism infringe on the Bill of Rights call for math?

 

[F1fan]

Here's one example of such rhetoric from the Pope:

Pope Francis takes on climate deniers, 'irresponsible' Americans in new climate letter

Pope Francis on Oct. 4 released a new document taking direct aim at climate change deniers and castigating Western nations, particularly the United States, for "irresponsible lifestyle[s]" causing irreparable harm to the planet.

www.ncronline.org

Just FYI - I was raised Roman Catholic, in case anyone might get the idea that I'm some sort of hater of Roman Catholicism. I don't hate it, I simply chose to not be religious, which means I don't attend church services, I don't participate in taking Holy Communion, confessing sins to a priest, etc.

Anyhow, I'm speaking much more broadly than formal brand name religious organizations; I'm referring to it in the general notion of religious behavior. Who ever said that religion is only manifested in the form of formal brand name religious organizations, and that "an establishment of religion" has to have a brand name, or a label, or a leader, or a website, etc? Climate change alarmism is well-established, and I pointed out how it has the characteristics of a religion.

Climate change alarmism comes from many directions and many types of venues, such as politicians, talking heads in the media, celebrities, activists, etc. Here are a few examples of the most notable individuals & it only scratches the surface:

Al Gore:

Environmental activism of Al Gore - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Former Vice President Al Gore

Former Vice President Al Gore

www.climaterealityproject.org

The Climate Reality Project — Al Gore

The Climate Reality Project

algore.com

AOC:

Climate

The Congresswoman’s first piece of legislation was the Green New Deal. Like President Roosevelt’s New Deal, the Green New Deal would create millions of jobs preparing our country for the impacts of climate change and transitioning our national energy grid to renewable sources.

ocasio-cortez.house.gov

AOC Gave a Powerful Speech About the Green New Deal

“Today is a big day for people who have been left behind."

www.teenvogue.com

Greta Thunberg:

Greta Thunberg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Teen activist Greta Thunberg arrives in New York by boat, putting ‘climate crisis’ in spotlight | United Nations

www.un.org

Celebrities:

'We Are at a Tipping Point': Celebrities Who Are Saving the Earth (and How They're Doing It)

Jaden Smith, Robert Redford and BTS prove that age and geography don't matter — climate change is a problem we all need to fix together

people.com

25 Climate Movers and Shakers in Entertainment

From Don Cheadle to James Cameron to Shailene Woodley, entertainment’s environmental warriors are leading the charge.

variety.com

Bill Nye:

What’s the fastest way to slow global warming? Bill Nye has the answer.

Watch Bill Nye The Science Guy explain in his funny, smart way what methane is and how cutting emissions can be an effective climate change solution.

www.edf.org

Documentary

Bill Nye is a man on a mission: to stop the spread of anti-scientific thinking across the world.

www.billnye.com

The Way We Talk About Climate Change Matters, Bill Nye Says (Published 2022)

In Monday’s puzzle, “Nye” was the answer to the clue “Bill known as the ‘Science Guy.’”

www.nytimes.com

Bernie Sanders:

The Green New Deal | Bernie Sanders Official Website

The climate crisis is not only the single greatest challenge facing our country; it is also our single greatest opportunity to build a more just and equitable future, but we must act immediately.

berniesanders.com

Climate change is a threat to the planet: We must address it » Senator Bernie Sanders

We can still avoid the worst impacts of climate change, save money, and make energy grid more resilient By: Bernie Sanders; Fox News Obviously, climate change is not real. I’ve heard, you’ve heard, “expert” after “expert” telling us for years how climate change is a “fraud.” We’ve heard from...

www.sanders.senate.gov

It reminds me of the alarmist warnings of icebergs in the transmissions to the Titanic and other ships. It's not as if everyone died, so what was the big deal?

 

[McBell]

Here's one example of such rhetoric from the Pope:

Pope Francis takes on climate deniers, 'irresponsible' Americans in new climate letter

Pope Francis on Oct. 4 released a new document taking direct aim at climate change deniers and castigating Western nations, particularly the United States, for "irresponsible lifestyle[s]" causing irreparable harm to the planet.

www.ncronline.org

Just FYI - I was raised Roman Catholic, in case anyone might get the idea that I'm some sort of hater of Roman Catholicism. I don't hate it, I simply chose to not be religious, which means I don't attend church services, I don't participate in taking Holy Communion, confessing sins to a priest, etc.

Anyhow, I'm speaking much more broadly than formal brand name religious organizations; I'm referring to it in the general notion of religious behavior. Who ever said that religion is only manifested in the form of formal brand name religious organizations, and that "an establishment of religion" has to have a brand name, or a label, or a leader, or a website, etc? Climate change alarmism is well-established, and I pointed out how it has the characteristics of a religion.

Climate change alarmism comes from many directions and many types of venues, such as politicians, talking heads in the media, celebrities, activists, etc. Here are a few examples of the most notable individuals & it only scratches the surface:

Al Gore:

Environmental activism of Al Gore - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Former Vice President Al Gore

Former Vice President Al Gore

www.climaterealityproject.org

The Climate Reality Project — Al Gore

The Climate Reality Project

algore.com

AOC:

Climate

The Congresswoman’s first piece of legislation was the Green New Deal. Like President Roosevelt’s New Deal, the Green New Deal would create millions of jobs preparing our country for the impacts of climate change and transitioning our national energy grid to renewable sources.

ocasio-cortez.house.gov

AOC Gave a Powerful Speech About the Green New Deal

“Today is a big day for people who have been left behind."

www.teenvogue.com

Greta Thunberg:

Greta Thunberg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Teen activist Greta Thunberg arrives in New York by boat, putting ‘climate crisis’ in spotlight | United Nations

www.un.org

Celebrities:

'We Are at a Tipping Point': Celebrities Who Are Saving the Earth (and How They're Doing It)

Jaden Smith, Robert Redford and BTS prove that age and geography don't matter — climate change is a problem we all need to fix together

people.com

25 Climate Movers and Shakers in Entertainment

From Don Cheadle to James Cameron to Shailene Woodley, entertainment’s environmental warriors are leading the charge.

variety.com

Bill Nye:

What’s the fastest way to slow global warming? Bill Nye has the answer.

Watch Bill Nye The Science Guy explain in his funny, smart way what methane is and how cutting emissions can be an effective climate change solution.

www.edf.org

Documentary

Bill Nye is a man on a mission: to stop the spread of anti-scientific thinking across the world.

www.billnye.com

The Way We Talk About Climate Change Matters, Bill Nye Says (Published 2022)

In Monday’s puzzle, “Nye” was the answer to the clue “Bill known as the ‘Science Guy.’”

www.nytimes.com

Bernie Sanders:

The Green New Deal | Bernie Sanders Official Website

The climate crisis is not only the single greatest challenge facing our country; it is also our single greatest opportunity to build a more just and equitable future, but we must act immediately.

berniesanders.com

Climate change is a threat to the planet: We must address it » Senator Bernie Sanders

We can still avoid the worst impacts of climate change, save money, and make energy grid more resilient By: Bernie Sanders; Fox News Obviously, climate change is not real. I’ve heard, you’ve heard, “expert” after “expert” telling us for years how climate change is a “fraud.” We’ve heard from...

www.sanders.senate.gov

If you are claiming that the above are religious "we must make sacrifices and pay "carbon" taxes, or else we'll all burn up from global warming" claims, there is no way to take you seriously in this thread.

 

[libre]

However, the doom and gloom being projected by the climate change alarmists is not in fact a well-established scientific fact. It entails predictions that are not well-rooted in the scientific method; for instance, science involves observation and repeatability, and with predictions of human-caused global warming reaching achieving, and exceeding disastrous & catastrophic levels, such observations have not yet occurred (thus have not yet been repeated). The main fundamental trait of science is that a theory can be falsified; how does one falsify something that hasn't been observed, yet?

We have a lot of scientific information on what happens when the temperature changes. We do know the melting point of ice, we observe the melting polar icecaps. We see the resulting rising sea levels and the drought and flooding that are becoming more and more of a problem.

Similarly, we can infer how slight temperature changes are going to have consequences across the planet which contribute to famine, wildfire, and other health risks. NASA has a list of ways that climate change is already affecting Americans here: Climate change impacts.

The above is just the tip of the iceberg.