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How Come Faithful People Are Not Necessarily Good People?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Salvation is a free gift, growing in grace takes effort, work, and it is God who works in us as we yield ourselves to Him.
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Salvation a free gift:
Romans 5:15-17 so also is the free gift...much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
...so is the gift: ...the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
...much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
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Not of works:
Ephesians 2:8-9 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 4: 4-6 4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God. 6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return.
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God works in us and corrects His children:
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Job 5:17
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Proverbs 3:11
My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Hebrews 12:5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:7
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hebrews 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
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I would add that as a Christian we are to strive to consider ourselves dead toward sin and not make provision for any fleshly desires that would be considered as sinful:
Romans 6 1 What should we say then? Should we keep on sinning so that God's grace can increase? 2 Not at all! As far as sin is concerned, we are dead. Christ has been raised from the dead by the Father's glory. And like Christ we also can live a new life.
6 We know that what we used to be was nailed to the cross with him. That happened so our sinful bodies would lose their power. We are no longer slaves of sin. 7 Those who have died have been set free from sin.
8 We died with Christ. So we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ was raised from the dead and will never die again. Death doesn't control him anymore. 10 When he died, he died once and for all time as far as sin is concerned. Now that he lives, he lives as far as God is concerned.
11 In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead as far as sin is concerned. Now that you believe in Christ Jesus, consider yourselves to be alive as far as God is concerned.
12 So don't let sin rule your body, which is going to die. Don't obey its evil longings. 13 Don't give the parts of your body to serve sin. Don't let them be used to do evil. Instead, give yourselves to God. You have been brought from death to life. Give the parts of your body to him to do what is right.
14 Sin will not be your master. Law does not rule you. God's grace has set you free. 15 What should we say then? Should we sin because we are not ruled by law but by God's grace? Not at all!
17 You used to be slaves of sin. But thank God that with your whole heart you obeyed the teachings you were given! 18 You have been set free from sin. You have become slaves to right living.
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Salvation a free gift:
Romans 5:15-17 so also is the free gift...much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
...so is the gift: ...the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
...much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not of works:
Ephesians 2:8-9 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 4: 4-6 4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God. 6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God works in us and corrects His children:
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Job 5:17
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Proverbs 3:11
My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Hebrews 12:5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:7
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hebrews 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add that as a Christian we are to strive to consider ourselves dead toward sin and not make provision for any fleshly desires that would be considered as sinful:
Romans 6 1 What should we say then? Should we keep on sinning so that God's grace can increase? 2 Not at all! As far as sin is concerned, we are dead. Christ has been raised from the dead by the Father's glory. And like Christ we also can live a new life.
6 We know that what we used to be was nailed to the cross with him. That happened so our sinful bodies would lose their power. We are no longer slaves of sin. 7 Those who have died have been set free from sin.
8 We died with Christ. So we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ was raised from the dead and will never die again. Death doesn't control him anymore. 10 When he died, he died once and for all time as far as sin is concerned. Now that he lives, he lives as far as God is concerned.
11 In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead as far as sin is concerned. Now that you believe in Christ Jesus, consider yourselves to be alive as far as God is concerned.
12 So don't let sin rule your body, which is going to die. Don't obey its evil longings. 13 Don't give the parts of your body to serve sin. Don't let them be used to do evil. Instead, give yourselves to God. You have been brought from death to life. Give the parts of your body to him to do what is right.
14 Sin will not be your master. Law does not rule you. God's grace has set you free. 15 What should we say then? Should we sin because we are not ruled by law but by God's grace? Not at all!
17 You used to be slaves of sin. But thank God that with your whole heart you obeyed the teachings you were given! 18 You have been set free from sin. You have become slaves to right living.
ayani
member
this is very true. i am remembering Frederick Douglass' autobiography, where he often mentions that the most outwardly pious slave masters tended to be the most cruel and self-righteous- to be put in the service of a non-religious man was much favorable to having a very devout master.
a love of ritual and song does not mean that one will have the virtues of compassion, generosity, or humility. people do tend to desire to cling to ego and preferance, rather than to let go of these things. but what world faith is there that doesn't have a strong social component, one emphasizing kindness and service? people will choose not to listen, and to ignore what is difficult.
worshiper
Picker of Nose
i think a person with faith but at the same time bad to another person is a person who claims he have faith when infact he doesnt. for if he has real faith he would be the most humble loving person. and he would strive to be good as oppose to branding people as this and that.
Kcnorwood
Well-Known Member
Salvation is not free, Yeshua's life wasn't free and so to say so, is why the question of this thread....
Its Balaam teachings (God doesn’t sacrifice) and is sick to put it politely....
How can people say it is right, to cover your own responsibilities by murdering others is just plainly wrong!
So on that, how can people say they have more faith in murdering the innocent?
So when this is proclaimed as Good, then this is why the whole world is getting worse, when we can set that as our moral standard.
Its Balaam teachings (God doesn’t sacrifice) and is sick to put it politely....
How can people say it is right, to cover your own responsibilities by murdering others is just plainly wrong!
So on that, how can people say they have more faith in murdering the innocent?
So when this is proclaimed as Good, then this is why the whole world is getting worse, when we can set that as our moral standard.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
From another thread,
Not all faith is about God, Kcnorwood. Without faith in one's lover, people tend to become abusive and controlling. Just one example.
Kcnorwood
Well-Known Member
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
No, but it fit rather well with the tangent you and cardero were on.
Kcnorwood
Well-Known Member
I was not on a tangent I was trying to stick to the topic sorry it was took the wrong way.
You said not all faith is about God but thats what the topic is on, well fatih in general.
I agree Worshiper. So does James 4:12; "There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?"
And 1John:4; He that saith I know Him, and keepth not His comandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
And 1John: 9; "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even to now".
IMO, Jesus summed it up when he said, "there is none good, no, not one".
The way I take that he was saying, "Stop trying to figure out who you are or how you're doing by comparing yourselves to each other, you're all in the same boat. Salvation isn't a contest between you and your nieghbor, it's a personal thing between you and God, and He's the only one you should be trying to impress because He's the only one who's opinion matters".
worshiper
Picker of Nose
owh lol i think i misinterpreted the topic. this topic should be clear of what faith it is talking about. either faith in god or faith in any sort?
my previous reply is meant to people who have faith in god.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Salvation is not free? If one takes the Bible as God's Word and final authority, the Bible says salvation is a free gift:
Romans 5:15-17 so also is the free gift...much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
...so is the gift: ...the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
...much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
From the authority of scripture, what from the above verse does one not understand? What is it about the words FREE GIFT that people do not get? Look at Romans 4:
4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God.
6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return.
Also, the Bible says the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, that is God will never take back the gift of salvation, this is our blessed assurance of salvation, our eternal security, for it is God who does the saving and the keeping as Pauls said, "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've commited unto Him against that day. I know whom I have believed for my salvation, and I am thoroughly convinced that He is able to keep me safe in His hand and He is greater than all and nothing can pluck me out of his hand, including me, for I am not greater than God.
Booko
Deviled Hen
We don't all start off in life with the same advantages. I had a loving family. Saddam Hussein had an uncle that beat the snot out of him regularly.
I have to ask, if I had been in the situations many others have been -- what choices would I have made? How can I know?
So, if someone is not as "good" as I am...they may well have made more progress from their starting point than I did. In which case, who is "better"?
No wonder religions teach the importance of humility.
Faith and living a good, decent life seem to me to be inextricably intertwined. To lean too heavily in one direction, at the expense of the other, seems very out of balance.
(For our atheist friends out there, don't translate "faith" as "faith in God." If you have "faith" in "truth" or the "essential value of humanity" it works also.)
Booko
Deviled Hen
Sorry, Panda, but I've known people whose lives seem to contradict this.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Galatians 5
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Booko
Deviled Hen
At the risk of derailing this thread :cover::
It's been my impression that religions at the outset do promote people being well-rounded, but that teaching falls by the wayside over time.
"Seek ye after knowledge, even unto China." -- Muhammad
"Knowledge is as wings to man's life, and a ladder for his ascent. Its acquisition is incumbent upon everyone." -- Baha'u'llah
Booko
Deviled Hen
For those of us who haven't paid attention to the Simpsons...uh...what is Ned Flanders like?
Many people are going to be amazed at who will be in heaven and who will not.
I would suggest reading the book of James. Many people did not want to include this book in the bible.
Faith without works are dead. Works will not get you to heaven, but if you have faith, you will also have works. I believe we all could use a little fruit inspection from time to time.
I would suggest reading the book of James. Many people did not want to include this book in the bible.
Faith without works are dead. Works will not get you to heaven, but if you have faith, you will also have works. I believe we all could use a little fruit inspection from time to time.
Booko
Deviled Hen
If someone does not have faith in the essential value of "Truth" or "humanity" or something similar greater than themselves, how, in your view, would they end up being a good person?
We have a name for people who have no dedication to anything higher than themselves:
...Sociopath