How could first big-bang explode?

[Bunyip]

Nothing in the wiki article suggests a quantum mechanical event.....it says that the particles started forming after the initial expansion and the universe cooled sufficiently for the energy to be converted to particles....

Yes Ben. And what kind of particles? A: SUBatomic particles right Ben? Which makes the BB a QUANTUM EVENT right?

No quantum mechanics in the big bang event itself....

The BB is all about quantum mechanics Ben, it is when sub atomic particles (which is what quantum mechanics studies Ben) first emerged.


The first moment of the Big Bang would be more accurately described as a QUANTUM (gosh Ben, there's that word again!) vacuum fluctuation.

A QUANTUM VACUUM FLUCTUATION Ben. So a quantum event begins the BB.

 

[Bunyip]

Nothing in the wiki article suggests a quantum mechanical event.....it says that the particles started forming after the initial expansion and the universe cooled sufficiently for the energy to be converted to particles....

No quantum mechanics in the big bang event itself....

Yes Ben SUBatomic particles right? So quantum scale right?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

LOL I love how you throw these tantrums every time you make a mistake, or show your ignorance (which is a lot).

Not ATOMS Ben. READ MORE CAREFULLY.

SUBatomic particles it said Benny boy. The BB was indeed a quantum event, the first. It was when energy was converted into SUB atomic particles. Like the definition of the BB says. The BB is quantum physics.

Now just for clarity; The big bang Ben is when SUBATOMIC (note it says SUBatomic Ben? Remember the SUB part ok? It's important.) particles first emerged in the universe. Now QUANTUM PHYSICS Ben is the study of such subatomic particles. (Again Ben, note the SUB prefix ok? Remember to keep in mind that it is SUBatomic particles that the BB and QM involves)

That's the problem wrt those posting here about science without any technical nous....Bunyip.....the first particles formed from the energy are not sub atomic...they can only be called sub atomic when the atoms come into existence.... You can't have QM until the atoms are formed!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes Ben. And what kind of particles? A: SUBatomic particles right Ben? Which makes the BB a QUANTUM EVENT right? The BB is all about quantum mechanics Ben, it is when sub atomic particles (which is what quantum mechanics studies Ben) first emerged.

You are already starting your time wasting mo by multiple posting....stop it at once and post one for one so I can logically expose your non scientific babbling!

 

[Bunyip]

You are already starting your time wasting mo by multiple posting....stop it at once and post one for one so I can logically expose your non scientific babbling!

Good luck with that Ben.

 

[Bunyip]

That's the problem wrt those posting here about science without any technical nous....Bunyip.....the first particles formed from the energy are not sub atomic...they can only be called sub atomic when the atoms come into existence.... You can't have QM until the atoms are formed!

Umm....sorry Ben, the first particles are subatomic. Read the definition I gave you again. You can have QM, the initial moment is a QM event Ben. It is called a QUANTUM VACUUM FLUCTUATION.

Now notice the first word of those three - QUANTUM.

The expansion was a quantum vacuum fluctuation, which is definitively a quantum event Ben.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Umm....sorry Ben, the first particles are subatomic. Read the definition I gave you again. You can have QM, the initial moment is a QM event Ben. It is called a QUANTUM VACUUM FLUCTUATION.

Now notice the first word of those three - QUANTUM.

The expansion was a quantum vacuum fluctuation, which is definitively a quantum event Ben.

You are making it up....let's be clear...I posted the definition of Quantum Mechanics up thread...and it involves sub atomic particles of atoms....the atoms must be in existence and they came after the initial particles, which in turn came ofter the pure energy, which in turn came from the time zero big bang event itself....

If you disagree with anything I said above...point it out....but there is no point in just rambling on and on without you pointing out where you think I am wrong?

 

[Ouroboros]

I don't understand what you are referring to....subatomic particles are electrons, protons, photons, etc.....and they were not in existence at the beginning?

Another one of my brain farts. You're right.

But still, my understanding is that quantum mechanics, or at least some of it, did work before the particles came to be. I guess I have to do some research and see what the theory says about this.

 

[Bunyip]

You are making it up....let's be clear...I posted the definition of Quantum Mechanics up thread...and it involves sub atomic particles of atoms....the atoms must be in existence and they came after the initial particles, which in turn came ofter the pure energy, which in turn came from the time zero big bang event itself....

If you disagree with anything I said above...point it out....but there is no point in just rambling on and on without you pointing out where you think I am wrong?

Sure, I disagree with the bit you made up about QM only being applicable after subatomic particles form. That was not in the definition, it is just something you invented hoping nobody would notice.
Quantum vacuum fluctuations ( like the initial moment of the BB) are definitively quantum events. The clue is in how the word 'quantum' makes the first word of the term; 'QUANTUM vacuum fluctuation'.

 

[Bunyip]

Another one of my brain farts. You're right.

But still, my understanding is that quantum mechanics, or at least some of it, did work before the particles came to be. I guess I have to do some research and see what the theory says about this.

Yes, that is the case. The initial expansion is referred to as a quantum vacuum fluctuation, an essentially quantum event.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Another one of my brain farts. You're right.

But still, my understanding is that quantum mechanics, or at least some of it, did work before the particles came to be. I guess I have to do some research and see what the theory says about this.

That's fine....it was the point I guess that sub atomic particles describe a state after the formation of the atomic elements.

Concerning QM...it is to do with the "motion and interaction of subatomic particles, incorporating the concepts of quantization of energy, wave–particle duality, the uncertainty principle, and the correspondence principle"... So QM can't possibly be in play until after the formation of the atomic elements....

 

[metis]

If they believe it wasn't from total "nothingness" then why not God, why it can be anything but not God ?

Who said it can't be God?

 

[Bunyip]

That's fine....it was the point I guess that sub atomic particles describe a state after the formation of the atomic elements.

Concerning QM...it is to do with the "motion and interaction of subatomic particles, incorporating the concepts of quantization of energy, wave–particle duality, the uncertainty principle, and the correspondence principle"... So QM can't possibly be in play until after the formation of the atomic elements....

You mean SUBatomic elements? And of course they came into existence following a quantum event called a quantum vacuum fluctuation.
SUBatomic elements came BEFORE atoms. They are what atoms are made of Ben.

 

[metis]

That's fine....it was the point I guess that sub atomic particles describe a state after the formation of the atomic elements.

Concerning QM...it is to do with the "motion and interaction of subatomic particles, incorporating the concepts of quantization of energy, wave–particle duality, the uncertainty principle, and the correspondence principle"... So QM can't possibly be in play until after the formation of the atomic elements....

Not necessarily because of both string theory and also that charge "particles" are quite possibly in play, according to the cosmologists that I've read. And just a reminder that "particle" doesn't mean "matter" in the conventional use of the latter term.

I skimmed this article because I don't have much time right now, but it seems to be going the direction I'm mentioning: No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning

 

[metis]

This is the 'nothingness' you mentioned that I was referring to in my post #333...

Now I have a question for you and/or others here who, if I understand correctly, claim that big bang theory says there is 'nothing' in existence before the big bang, not meaning empty space, but non existence...,and that there is nothing outside the big bang expansion bubble in the same sense of absolute nothing.

But before I ask...I need to make sure I understand correctly what this 'nothing' really means....so please you or anyone please advise if I have it right?

I refuted the concept of "nothingness", so I believe you have me on the wrong side of this, which may be the confusion we're running across.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Sure, I disagree with the bit you made up about QM only being applicable after subatomic particles form. That was not in the definition, it is just something you invented hoping nobody would notice.
Quantum vacuum fluctuations ( like the initial moment of the BB) are definitively quantum events. The clue is in how the word 'quantum' makes the first word of the term; 'QUANTUM vacuum fluctuation'.

No Bunyip...I posted the definition up thread #341 as I said.;..you are caught lying....here it is again with the link....

quantum mechanics
Physics
noun: quantum mechanics

1. the branch of mechanics that deals with the mathematical description of the motion and interaction of subatomic particles, incorporating the concepts of quantization of energy, wave–particle duality, the uncertainty principle, and the correspondence principle.

quantum mechanics definition - Google Search

Quantum fluctuations are not to do with the initial moment of the bog bang...but only to do at the time when the energy of the quantum vacuum of space converts into particles....

A quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of empty space, as allowed by the uncertainty principle.

Quantum fluctuation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bunyip]

No Bunyip...I posted the definition up thread #341 as I said.;..you are caught lying....here it is again with the link....

quantum mechanics
Physics
noun: quantum mechanics

1. 
   
   
   • the branch of mechanics that deals with the mathematical description of the motion and interaction of subatomic particles, incorporating the concepts of quantization of energy, wave–particle duality, the uncertainty principle, and the correspondence principle.

quantum mechanics definition - Google Search

Quantum fluctuations are not to do with the initial moment of the bog bang...but only to do at the time when the energy of the quantum vacuum of space converts into particles....

A quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of empty space, as allowed by the uncertainty principle.

Quantum fluctuation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, and the Big Bang was such an event Ben. Energetic particles emerged for the first time. The BB begins with a quantum vacuum fluctuation. The definition you posted even states outright that energy itself is QM. (...incorporating the quantization of ENERGY...)

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes, that is the case. The initial expansion is referred to as a quantum vacuum fluctuation, an essentially quantum event.

See my post #367 for what is meant by quantum vacuum fluctuation...the big bang event itself is not a quantum vacuum fluctuation......it has to do with particle formation due to fluctuation in the energy of the quantum vacuum...

 

[Bunyip]

See my post #367 for what is meant by quantum vacuum fluctuation...the big bang event itself is not a quantum vacuum fluctuation......it has to do with particle formation due to fluctuation in the energy of the quantum vacuum...

Of course the BB is a QVF, that is what it starts with. The BB begins with a QVF, which is by definition a quantum scale event.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You mean SUBatomic elements? And of course they came into existence following a quantum event called a quantum vacuum fluctuation.
SUBatomic elements came BEFORE atoms. They are what atoms are made of Ben.

Bunyip...you do not understand even when it has been explained so many times....initially there were no particles...when cooling of space reached a certain point, some of the energy converted to particles...there was much activity during this phase until there was sufficient stability for the formation of the atomic elements to occur...when the first atom formed...the particles that made it up are known as sub atomic particles... The sub atomic particles are not the same as the first particles that came into existence when the space cooled sufficiently for the energy to convert....