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"How Did All Those Animals Fit on the Ark?"

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is an exact replica if the ark built to the biblical dimensions in the harbor in Amsterdam, and they can't take it out into the ocean because they are quite sure it is not stabile enough to stay afloat based on much smaller models that had that problem, loaded or empty.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Says the guy who thinks evidence = fact. It is in how the evidence is interpreted not that evidence is automatically fact.

You base your faith in the assumptions of men while I base my faith in the word of God. This is the difference.
Assumes a fact that is not in evidence. You confuse faith with fact and it gets away from you, I have no faith, so I avoid that problem.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I think the intent of this thread was to discuss what AiG said. That is why Skim quoted an article from AiG in the OP. That is what this thread is about, I think it is relevant to talk about that.
Indeed, it is about what AiG said, and not about the Bible per se.

I understand your argument about miracles, and I agree. But AiG tries to show otherwise.

AiG says that Noah's ark was perfectly designed to be sea worthy. The skeptic replies that a wooden vessel of that size would be torn to pieces by even a mild current. You could reply to that and say it was a miracle. I agree.

For a vessel of that size to float it would require a miracle. For all the animals to fit on that boat would require a miracle. For them to survive the journey would require a miracle. For any species to survive after being brought to the brink of extinction and having the entire biosphere virtually destroyed would require a miracle. For all of this to happen without leaving any physical evidence of a global flood would require a miracle. For any reasonable intelligent person to believe this actually happened would require a miracle.
My question is, why did god go to all the trouble of creating all these separate miracles when all he would have had to do was kill everyone where they stood---a snap of his fingers, one miracle, and poof, millions are dead--- leaving Noah and crew alive of course. It would be a far more expedient and reasonable thing to do.



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Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
The "kind" argument is so horribly anti-science it hurts my brain to even hear it.

"You see, God made "kinds" of animals. So to get all 10,000 species of birds, all Noah had to do was have two "bird kinds."

Shoot me in the face, please.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
I happened to catch about 10 minutes of that idiocy, "Ancient Aliens" today. Their claim is that the Annunaki "may have" caused the "great flood" and that the "ark" may have been a spaceship.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
The following is from a short AiG article that's typical of the claptrap creationists are still trying to sell.

To be sure, it's nothing new, but if it sounds reasonable, please click the link and read the whole thing (it ain't that long), and if you still think the author has a point come back and we'll talk. Heck, we can talk anyway.

"Ornithologists estimate the diversity of living bird species in the entire world to be around 10,380. . . . That number almost doubles the number of extant mammal species (5,416) and is almost 3,000 more than extant amphibian species (7,509). The number of reptile species is the closest to the bird number with a current count of 10,272 extant species. Because most of these vertebrates are terrestrial, we have about 33,500 different species of terrestrial vertebrates on earth today. I am leaving out the aquatic vertebrates (mainly the fishes) because they would not have been represented on the Ark (33,200 fish species have been described, and the implications of that are important for creation scientists who are trying to model the diversity of all life from the Flood to the present).

How Did All Those Animals Fit on the Ark?
The answer to this question is more easily answered once we distinguish between biblical kinds and species. In Genesis 6:1–20 we read that Noah was commanded to take two of every animal kind into the Ark. Verse 20 makes clear that those animals would include two of every kind of bird. Later, God clarified that seven individuals of the clean animals, including some birds, would be on the Ark (Genesis 7:2–3). Does that mean that Noah had two (or seven) of all 10,380 extant bird species (more if you count extinct species)? If a biblical kind and a species were equivalent, then yes. But they are not the same; many species are categorized under each biblical kind.

Dr. Jean Lightner [a retired doctor of veterinary preventive medicine] has conservatively estimated that birds are comprised of about 196 created kinds. If we round that up to 200 bird kinds, we could account for all 10,380 extant species by each species diverging into two species just once every 750 years—just six times (200 to 400 to 800 to 1,600 to 3,200 to 6,400 to 12,800). That would even give us 2,420 more bird species to account for some extinction events. That is a very simplistic view and does not account for many variables, but it does provide us with a quick way to estimate if simple speciation (doubling) could account for all the birds we have today.

What Is a Species?
A group of sexually reproducing organisms that produce viable offspring is considered a biological species. Often this definition is clarified with the phrase “potentially reproducing”
Robins produce more robins. Bluebirds produce bluebirds. Could a male robin and a female bluebird produce a hybrid like a bluebin? No, they are different biological species.

To some people, what I just described [speciation] sounds too much like evolution. The evolutionary process definitely includes the idea of speciation, but the formation of species in response to geographic (or habitat) differences is consistent with a biblical worldview. Having over 10,000 different species of birds (not to mention mammals, reptiles, and amphibians), especially two of every kind and seven of the clean animals (many of the birds), would have been too much for Noah and his family to care for—not to mention house. The efforts of those involved with the Ark Encounter are providing us with realistic figures about the number of animals on the Ark. Having two of every bird kind and seven of every clean bird kind fits nicely.


[An example of the post-ark speciation]
If we follow the thrush kind out of the Ark, they could quickly scatter in many different directions. As they reproduced and their populations grew, they would find habitats that fit their needs. The variation potential in the Ark population would be displayed when different populations settled into different habitats. The populations would continue to grow and the variations inherent in their populations would allow them to quickly adapt to the new and developing habitats around the world. New species would form as geographic barriers isolated different populations.

Eventually one of the populations of the thrush kind that migrated to what is now North America has diversified into at least three species of bluebirds. One species is thriving in eastern North America, and the other two species are thriving in western North America. However, these three species can hybridize where their populations overlap, which indicates that the speciation process is not complete. However, if I ever see a mountain bluebird or a western bluebird, you can guarantee that I will put them on my life list as different species.

That was following just one lineage of the thrush kind. Now think of other lineages to other regions of the world. Then add to that all the other bird kinds, all originating from the Ark and migrating away from the modern day country of Turkey or one of the surrounding countries in the region. Variation among all the populations enabled spreading into various habitats in which to thrive. Populations continued diversifying as new habitats become available, thriving in those newer locations and filling the earth with birds and more birds so that today we have over 10,000 birds to enjoy and to add to our bird list.
source


And all this scattering and speciation in only 4,360 years!

Aside from the above being self-serving and outright stupid, please note that while our retired doctor of veterinary preventive medicine defines "species" (atrociously, to be sure) she conveniently forgets to define "kind." But then who's surprised.


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Because the Biblical story is inaccurate.
It was passed down through many generations
with a process of 'Chinese whispering'.

What I believe is that its origin is still partly true,
and that life on Earth was seeded from another world,
and that the 'Ark' was actually a spaceship.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
Perhaps we should examine other stories connected to the Noah myth.

Towards the end of one ancient Mesopotamian story, "The Epic of Gilgamesh", Gilgamesh seeks out Utnapishtim, who recounts to Gilgamesh how he survived the deluge and became immortal...

Utnapishtim reveals to Gilgamesh how, long ago, he received divine revelation from the god of wisdom and sorcery-Enki- that the storm god Enlil had become enraged with humanity and sought to destroy them in a massive flood. Enki advised Utnapishtim to build a ship that would house Utnapishtim's family, and the craftsman of the village, and "all the animals of the field", so that they would survive the coming deluge. The flood begins... it rains for many days and many nights. Minus the inhabitants of the ship, humanity is obliterated. The ship comes to rest on a mountain. Utnapishtim opens the hatch and releases a dove to learn if the waters have receded. The dove returns. He releases a swallow, and the swallow returns. He releases a raven, and the raven does not return, so he knows the waters have receded. He releases the animals and the ship's inhabitants. He makes sacrifice to the gods, and they become pleased with him, and they bless him by making him immortal.

This story itself is also strongly connected to the final myth described in the Atrahasis Epic...

But when it says "all the animals of the field", are we really talking about all the animals of the Earth? Or are we talking about animals of the region? The animals of the village perhaps, and the surrounding areas? Their livestock?

I do not think it was referring to all of the animals of the earth. The alleged purpose of the flood was to destroy humans. If this meant reversing creation... than many animals would likely die in the process, yes... unless it was the will of God(s) to use other means of ensuring the continued survival of Earth's animals. And perhaps the flood wasn't worldwide. Perhaps it just seemed that way from the perspective of those who experienced it. Perhaps it involved God(s). Perhaps it didn't. It is interesting to discuss but not worth arguing about.



 
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RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
The following is from a short AiG article that's typical of the claptrap creationists are still trying to sell.

To be sure, it's nothing new, but if it sounds reasonable, please click the link and read the whole thing (it ain't that long), and if you still think the author has a point come back and we'll talk. Heck, we can talk anyway.

"Ornithologists estimate the diversity of living bird species in the entire world to be around 10,380. . . . That number almost doubles the number of extant mammal species (5,416) and is almost 3,000 more than extant amphibian species (7,509). The number of reptile species is the closest to the bird number with a current count of 10,272 extant species. Because most of these vertebrates are terrestrial, we have about 33,500 different species of terrestrial vertebrates on earth today. I am leaving out the aquatic vertebrates (mainly the fishes) because they would not have been represented on the Ark (33,200 fish species have been described, and the implications of that are important for creation scientists who are trying to model the diversity of all life from the Flood to the present).

How Did All Those Animals Fit on the Ark?
The answer to this question is more easily answered once we distinguish between biblical kinds and species. In Genesis 6:1–20 we read that Noah was commanded to take two of every animal kind into the Ark. Verse 20 makes clear that those animals would include two of every kind of bird. Later, God clarified that seven individuals of the clean animals, including some birds, would be on the Ark (Genesis 7:2–3). Does that mean that Noah had two (or seven) of all 10,380 extant bird species (more if you count extinct species)? If a biblical kind and a species were equivalent, then yes. But they are not the same; many species are categorized under each biblical kind.

Dr. Jean Lightner [a retired doctor of veterinary preventive medicine] has conservatively estimated that birds are comprised of about 196 created kinds. If we round that up to 200 bird kinds, we could account for all 10,380 extant species by each species diverging into two species just once every 750 years—just six times (200 to 400 to 800 to 1,600 to 3,200 to 6,400 to 12,800). That would even give us 2,420 more bird species to account for some extinction events. That is a very simplistic view and does not account for many variables, but it does provide us with a quick way to estimate if simple speciation (doubling) could account for all the birds we have today.

What Is a Species?
A group of sexually reproducing organisms that produce viable offspring is considered a biological species. Often this definition is clarified with the phrase “potentially reproducing”
Robins produce more robins. Bluebirds produce bluebirds. Could a male robin and a female bluebird produce a hybrid like a bluebin? No, they are different biological species.

To some people, what I just described [speciation] sounds too much like evolution. The evolutionary process definitely includes the idea of speciation, but the formation of species in response to geographic (or habitat) differences is consistent with a biblical worldview. Having over 10,000 different species of birds (not to mention mammals, reptiles, and amphibians), especially two of every kind and seven of the clean animals (many of the birds), would have been too much for Noah and his family to care for—not to mention house. The efforts of those involved with the Ark Encounter are providing us with realistic figures about the number of animals on the Ark. Having two of every bird kind and seven of every clean bird kind fits nicely.


[An example of the post-ark speciation]
If we follow the thrush kind out of the Ark, they could quickly scatter in many different directions. As they reproduced and their populations grew, they would find habitats that fit their needs. The variation potential in the Ark population would be displayed when different populations settled into different habitats. The populations would continue to grow and the variations inherent in their populations would allow them to quickly adapt to the new and developing habitats around the world. New species would form as geographic barriers isolated different populations.

Eventually one of the populations of the thrush kind that migrated to what is now North America has diversified into at least three species of bluebirds. One species is thriving in eastern North America, and the other two species are thriving in western North America. However, these three species can hybridize where their populations overlap, which indicates that the speciation process is not complete. However, if I ever see a mountain bluebird or a western bluebird, you can guarantee that I will put them on my life list as different species.

That was following just one lineage of the thrush kind. Now think of other lineages to other regions of the world. Then add to that all the other bird kinds, all originating from the Ark and migrating away from the modern day country of Turkey or one of the surrounding countries in the region. Variation among all the populations enabled spreading into various habitats in which to thrive. Populations continued diversifying as new habitats become available, thriving in those newer locations and filling the earth with birds and more birds so that today we have over 10,000 birds to enjoy and to add to our bird list.
source


And all this scattering and speciation in only 4,360 years!

Aside from the above being self-serving and outright stupid, please note that while our retired doctor of veterinary preventive medicine defines "species" (atrociously, to be sure) she conveniently forgets to define "kind." But then who's surprised.


.
This is the problem with interpreting the Bible as literal history. It was written by ancient people who were making guestimations about things like dates and numbers. There are some who say that the flood was only local which is much more understandable seeing that there are kangaroos in Australia. No bible student would dare ever ask that question to his professor. Not that they would think of asking it.

Then there's interpreting the Bible in a non-literal way. This makes it more about spiritual concepts and less about proving the unprovable. I guess I treat the Bible as I would treat any other book written by men. I agree with it at some points and at others I don't. I can't see how Christianity is going to survive in the future with the bare knuckle literal (historical-grammatical) interpretation.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
And all this scattering and speciation in only 4,360 years!
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Yup.

Basically, "evolution over long time is wrong because we can't prove speciation", but... "speciation over 4000 years without proof, yeah! That we can believe in because the Ark story must be true!"

Besides, it's actually shorter than 4000 years since most of these extinct bird species are from a looooooong time ago, and not just yesterday. Which means that the 10 million species from 10,000 "kinds" must've come within a few thousand years, perhaps 1-2,000? That's something like a new species per generation or more. Every little animal born is a new species. It sounds like a crocoduck scenario. LOL!
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Yup.

Basically, "evolution over long time is wrong because we can't prove speciation", but... "speciation over 4000 years without proof, yeah! That we can believe in because the Ark story must be true!"
This comes to mind every time I hear about their kinds becoming species. Wanting it both ways is stupid beyond belief, but then that's creationism for you.


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