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How do Abrahamic faiths tackle the problem of evil?

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
There is a really important question missing on the diagram, though - one that I typically point out whenever a thread like this comes up.

Is it reasonable to expect that the one-god, who is categorically different from human persons, understands what "evil" means in the same way that humans do? To me, that the answer to that question is a resounding "no" makes much of the case fall apart.
 

MD

qualiaphile
There is a really important question missing on the diagram, though - one that I typically point out whenever a thread like this comes up.

Is it reasonable to expect that the one-god, who is categorically different from human persons, understands what "evil" means in the same way that humans do? To me, that the answer to that question is a resounding "no" makes much of the case fall apart.

But if this God does not understand or view evil the same way humans do, then how can we assign any attributes to this god? It makes any attributes assigned to this god null and void
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
But if this God does not understand or view evil the same way humans do, then how can we assign any attributes to this god? It makes any attributes assigned to this god null and void

Perhaps. Alternatively, one can simply recognize that the map is not the territory, and construct one's maps mindfully based on the results that they have in living our lives. In that, one avoids taking a forever ambiguous position on all questions of human knowledge to create an operational model for a given purpose. If, say, you uphold the value of not being a jerk, telling a story about a deity being a force of good in the world helps support that value. To me, that is the real take-home message from an attribute like omnibenevolence - it says "there is a great force of good out there in the world" which provides a message of hope and serves as an example for us to follow.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Some people believe in a faith to such extremes that they commit mass murder in the name
of some god.
Not only in past history but in this so called modern world.
France, Orlando, W.T.C. and more misunderstandings of Islam.
Commit murder to promote religion?
How's that workin' for ya?
109 verses in the Koran promoting violence towards unbelievers.
Perhaps your conclusions are meaningless?
Just sayin'.

What does gratuitous Islam bashing have to with this thread or even to the post to which you were responding?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
How does Judaism address this problem then?
I have not seen this question brought anywhere in Jewish sources. Mostly because I haven't studied Jewish philosophy as its not an encouraged area of study. So I can only derive an answer from other sources.

According to the Talmud, evil events are a perception. We are encouraged to constantly recognize that everything that happens to us is for the best, even if we are not able to perceive what might be good about it. Suffering, is understood to be a positive thing - one reserved to purify those that G-d wants close to Him. Were we able to see the benefit, we'd not want it to be taken away from us in most cases.

The existence of the perception, is a development in the progression away from G-d. If the greatest pleasure is the return of the person to his Source in G-d, then the opposite direction is increasingly greater suffering. Without this continuum, there would be only stagnation.

This directly relates to what is actually evil - movement away from G-d's Will: If the ultimate good is defined as G-d, then anywhere you stand on the continuum between G-d and the opposite end, in front of you will be good and behind you will be evil (assuming you're travelling in the right direction). Depending on the person's movement, what is good or evil for him will constantly be changing. In that respect, the Creation (as being increasingly further from G-d) is evil.

What we have, is sort of a split between the choices a person makes and the events that occurs to him. From my perspective, I can choose to do evil. But from the perspective of the person that I am being evil to, I am benefiting him (whether he ultimately recognizes that or not). Because of this, there's no contradiction to G-d's control of events: we can choose to go against G-d's Will (ie. to transgress what he expects of us), but the outcome of our actions will only be according to G-d's Will (it will benefit the victim).

The reason why we are required to go through this world of testing, is not for G-d, but for us. G-d already of course knows everything we might choose. Here the idea we have is called "bread of embarrassment". The idea is that a person who receives charity, doesn't appreciate and enjoy the money he received as when he works hard for it himself. Consequently, the existence of the concept and our existence here, causes us to appreciate and enjoy the reward we will receive for passing our tests, to a greater extent. I guess its kind of like getting more bang for your buck. Which is consistent with the idea that G-d wants us to get the greatest possible enjoyment.

In summary. There's no reason for G-d to have created the creation any other way that He did. Its a logical progression and is ultimately beneficial. Anything that is perceived of as bad, is a result of faulty perception, not bad design.
 
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MD

qualiaphile
I have not seen this question brought anywhere in Jewish sources. Mostly because I haven't studied Jewish philosophy as its not an encouraged area of study. So I can only derive an answer from other sources.

According to the Talmud, evil events are a perception. We are encouraged to constantly recognize that everything that happens to us is for the best, even if we are not able to perceive what might be good about it. Suffering, is understood to be a positive thing - one reserved to purify those that G-d wants close to Him. Were we able to see the benefit, we'd not want it to be taken away from us in most cases.

Thanks for the reply Tumah. Does this mean that evil does not exist, except for perhaps as an illusion?

The existence of the perception, is a development in the progression away from G-d. If the greatest pleasure is the return of the person to his Source in G-d, then the opposite direction is increasingly greater suffering. Without this continuum, there would be only stagnation.

This directly relates to what is actually evil - movement away from G-d's Will: If the ultimate good is defined as G-d, then anywhere you stand on the continuum between G-d and the opposite end, in front of you will be good and behind you will be evil (assuming you're travelling in the right direction). Depending on the person's movement, what is good or evil for him will constantly be changing. In that respect, the Creation (as being increasingly further from G-d) is evil.

How can anything move away from God, if God is everything? That would mean we are moving away into something outside of God, which would mean that God isn't everything nor created everything?

What we have, is sort of a split between the choices a person makes and the events that occurs to him. From my perspective, I can choose to do evil. But from the perspective of the person that I am being evil to, I am benefiting him (whether he ultimately recognizes that or not). Because of this, there's no contradiction to G-d's control of events: we can choose to go against G-d's Will (ie. to transgress what he expects of us), but the outcome of our actions will only be according to G-d's Will (it will benefit the victim).

The reason why we are required to go through this world of testing, is not for G-d, but for us. G-d already of course knows everything we might choose. Here the idea we have is called "bread of embarrassment". The idea is that a person who receives charity, doesn't appreciate and enjoy the money he received as when he works hard for it himself. Consequently, the existence of the concept and our existence here, causes us to appreciate and enjoy the reward we will receive for passing our tests, to a greater extent. I guess its kind of like getting more bang for your buck. Which is consistent with the idea that G-d wants us to get the greatest possible enjoyment.

In summary. There's no reason for G-d to have created the creation any other way that He did. Its a logical progression and is ultimately beneficial. Anything that is perceived of as bad, is a result of faulty perception, not bad design.

Wouldn't God having a will, but us having the choice to break that will, mean that God is not omniscient?

If He has the power to know everything, then wouldn't that mean He knows that we will make the choices that will go for/against his will? Which moots any concept of free will.

If He has also created everything, then the universe is purely deterministic and free will is an illusion. If He knows everything then the deterministic universe will result in suffering for some. In the end He has purposely made some humans to suffer, due to creating certain circumstances that result in their suffering and knowing that they don't have any real choice in the matter. This is incompatible with the concept of Him being purely benevolent.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
"Could God have created a universe with free-will but without evil? No, therefore God is not All-powerful.."

Could Almighty God create a triangle with 2-sides? No .. Does that mean that He is not All-powerful?
No .. it means that when we talk 'gibberish', our conclusions are meaningless :)
Do you believe that there is free will in Heaven?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/continuing-the-discussion-on-the-problem-of-evil.180195/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/problem-of-suffering-free-will-and-heaven.164582/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/jesus-and-the-problem-of-evil.148817/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/how-do-you-reconcile-the-problem-of-evil.152585/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/god-and-evil.144170/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/book-of-job-and-problem-of-evil.133993/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/god-decides-to-create-and.187715/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/a-new-argument-from-evil.144213/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/why-do-bad-things-happen-when-god-exists.187055/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/free-will-and-the-problem-of-evil.122281/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bibles-answer-to-the-problem-of-suffering.138897
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-problem-of-evil-revisited.119363/
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...existence-of-evil-death-and-suffering.187349/
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...ree-will-defeat-the-epicurean-paradox.188391/
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...ldren-are-raped-tortured-and-murdered.189868/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/god-vs-evil.188315/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/if-god-is-love.188998/#post-4816509
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/epicurus-riddle.182161/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-problem-of-suffering.119132/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/theists-response-to-epicurus-famous-argument.92981/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-riddle-of-epicurus.7655/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/did-epicurus-disprove-god.119041/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/epicurus.101925/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/how-an-omnipotent-and-all-loving-god-cannot-exist.179674/

...I'm just saying.
Which of these actually answer the problem of evil instead of dancing around the issue?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why are you asking me?
Because you're the one that said that the topic has been "hashed, re-hashed, over-hashed, and ashed."

In all that hashing, did anyone ever actually give a reasonable answer?

Edit: I took your two posts to be your way of saying that the issue has been done to death. Great - how was it finally resolved?
 

MD

qualiaphile
Perhaps. Alternatively, one can simply recognize that the map is not the territory, and construct one's maps mindfully based on the results that they have in living our lives. In that, one avoids taking a forever ambiguous position on all questions of human knowledge to create an operational model for a given purpose. If, say, you uphold the value of not being a jerk, telling a story about a deity being a force of good in the world helps support that value. To me, that is the real take-home message from an attribute like omnibenevolence - it says "there is a great force of good out there in the world" which provides a message of hope and serves as an example for us to follow.

I agree, religion provides purpose and hope. But I feel it has to also follow a somewhat logical or coherent flow. One cannot say they worship a god who represents benevolence, when that very god creates evil and suffering, nullifying its benevolence.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Do you believe that there is free will in Heaven?
Now, that's a good question..
I feel that the "right" answer is yes. However, we won't all be in heaven/paradise.
..so one could ask "Why didn't God create only those who will be in heaven?"
It seems to me that there is no qualification without the exam..
 
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