How do Abrahamic religions interpret this?

[Aquitaine]

I was only contrasting religious belief causing people to die, versus other reasons people die and wondering why you find religion more worrisome than any other reason people are killed.

I've already given you my reason: give a person "divine permission" to do something and they will do it.
Nations, governments and corporations can all be freely criticised and mocked, but with religions that suddenly changes.

No, I was excluding, idol-worshipers. Which relates to the question you originally asked me: whether I believe it is acceptable to execute someone for idolatry. From there we moved to discussion about theocracy.

You were excluding idol-worshippers from people who should be executed for idolatry? I'm guessing that was a typo.

Regardless, so a non-Jew who doesn't want to follow Judaism should still leave a Jewish Theocracy in your opinion?

 

[Tumah]

I've already given you my reason: give a person "divine permission" to do something and they will do it.
Nations, governments and corporations can all be freely criticised and mocked, but with religions that suddenly changes.

I think both statements are false, both in their implicit and explicit meanings.

Not everything that is Divinely permitted is done. I may own a slave according to my Divine Laws. I do not.
"Divine permission" is not the only excuse people use for doing what they want. There are many. Religion is only one of them.

Try criticizing a nation, to someone with strong nationalistic tendencies. Criticize a company to its founders. A government to its leaders.
Its not only the religious that take offense when their religions are mocked. Its anyone who finds mocked anything that he has invested a part of himself into.

You were excluding idol-worshippers from people who should be executed for idolatry? I'm guessing that was a typo.

Regardless, so a non-Jew who doesn't want to follow Judaism should still leave a Jewish Theocracy in your opinion?

Yeah, I meant including idol-worshipers. That is, of any religion (or non), including Jewish.
No, a non-Jew who wants to practice idol worship would be better off leaving a Jewish theocracy. He doesn't need to become Jewish as per the link I gave you earlier.

 

[Aquitaine]

Not everything that is Divinely permitted is done. I may own a slave according to my Divine Laws. I do not.
"Divine permission" is not the only excuse people use for doing what they want. There are many. Religion is only one of them.

The difference is that (for example) a nationalist will not believe his actions are being condoned by the all-knowing, all-wise and infallible creator of the universe. At best he may belief his actions are condoned by the nation state which he belongs too: an artificial, fallible group of humans.
Can you not see the distinction I'm trying to make here?

Try criticizing a nation, to someone with strong nationalistic tendencies. Criticize a company to its founders. A government to its leaders.
Its not only the religious that take offense when their religions are mocked. Its anyone who finds mocked anything that he has invested a part of himself into.

Go find me someone accused of "blasphemy" against McDonalds, and consequently tried and executed for it.

Yeah, I meant including idol-worshipers. That is, of any religion (or non), including Jewish.
No, a non-Jew who wants to practice idol worship would be better off leaving a Jewish theocracy. He doesn't need to become Jewish as per the link I gave you earlier.

So you think non-jewish idol worshippers should still be executed in your Jewish theocracy?
If yes, then of course they'd be better off leaving your Jewish theocracy - otherwise they'd be murdered.
If Israel became an Orthodox Jewish theocracy, would you say you'd be "better off" in it, as opposed to it in it's current form?

 

[Moishe3rd]

This has probably been answered but, I can't read the whole thread.
The Torah is based on G-d's Justice.
In this case, Justice means due process. You are not allowed to simply kill people or wipe out a city without due process.
So yes, this is different from "my god can kill more people than your god..." Or, simple conquests - "kill 'em all and take the loot."

These Commandments are directed towards the People of Israel who made a Covenant with G-d to accept G-d as their G-d. And, G-d promised that if they accepted Him. He would make them into a Great Nation and if they rejected Him, He would reject them.
However, in ALL death penalty cases, many things must happen before one is allowed to take another human life.
The person (or the city in this case) must be warned by at least two witnesses that the crime he is committing is punishable by death. The person must understand this commandment and penalty.
At least two witnesses must see this crime occur and be able to testify precisely how, when and where this crime occurred.
If any of these steps are not taken or are confused by the witnesses, there is no crime involved.
There is even doubt if the first time the crime is committed whether or not the person is liable. A repeat offender who had had the benefit of all of these previous steps would be taken to Court.
The Court would have to Judge the crime based on the testimony of the witnesses. If there were contradictory witnesses, the crime would not be punishable.
If the Court ruled unanimously that the crime was committed and the death penalty should be applied, the perpetrator would go free. Jewish Law demands that at least one Judge must doubt the guilt of the accused.
I am sure that there are other technicalities that I am leaving out but, that's basically it.

G-d's Torah was given to promote Justice as opposed to the self willed whims that rule Man on a daily basis.
It is very, very difficult to administer the death penalty under Jewish Law.

 

[Aquitaine]

Wait, death for an entire city? I take it this was inspired by Sodom and Gomorrah?

 

[Moishe3rd]

Wait, death for an entire city? I take it this was inspired by Sodom and Gomorrah?

No.
Sodom and Gomorrah occurred before the Torah was given to the Jews.
They were not Jewish.

 

[Aquitaine]

No.
Sodom and Gomorrah occurred before the Torah was given to the Jews.
They were not Jewish.

Does Jewish Law permit the death penalty for entire cities?

 

[rosends]

Does Jewish Law permit the death penalty for entire cities?

http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/reeh/gilat.html

 

[Aquitaine]

http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/reeh/gilat.html

Jesus, you'd support an idol-worshipper's children being murdered? Good grief, this is why religious orthodoxy is a bad thing.

 

[Flankerl]

Jesus, you'd support an idol-worshipper's children being murdered? Good grief, this is why religious orthodoxy is a bad thing.

So how many idol worshippers children have we killed in the last... 2000 years? How many did we before that time?(please with scientific sources)

We seem to be the most horrible people ever, so there must be a lot.

 

[Aquitaine]

So how many idol worshippers children have we killed in the last... 2000 years? How many did we before that time?(please with scientific sources)

We seem to be the most horrible people ever, so there must be a lot.

But do you believe doing so would be divinely permitted?

 

[Flankerl]

Not sure if you actually read what @rosends wrote.

 

[Aquitaine]

Not sure if you actually read what @rosends wrote.

I did. From what I gathered, if a minority commit idolatry they are to be stoned to death, but there is debate over whether or not their children and wives are to be killed, and whether or not an entire town be essentially razed.
How thoughtful.

 

[rosends]

I did. From what I gathered, if a minority commit idolatry they are to be stoned to death, but there is debate over whether or not their children and wives are to be killed, and whether or not an entire town be essentially razed.
How thoughtful.

actually, the opening explains how a major opinion is that the eventuality can't actually happen:

" No wonder the Tosefta (Sanhedrin 14,1) states: "There never was a subversive city and never will be. Why then was this law written? That we may study it and receive reward". As we know, the laws of a rebellious son (ben sorer umoreh), whose details have similarly troubled scholars of all generations, are likewise described by the Tosefta and the Talmuds: "There has never been a stubborn and rebellious son and never will be. Why then was this law written? That we may study it and receive reward". (Tosefta Sanhedrin 11,6; Talmud Sanhedrin 71a)."

The underlying question is "is it ok that in a theocracy, the religious court can institute a death penalty for cries against the religious code". My answer is that that's part of what the theocracy is.

 

[Aquitaine]

actually, the opening explains how a major opinion is that the eventuality can't actually happen:

" No wonder the Tosefta (Sanhedrin 14,1) states: "There never was a subversive city and never will be. Why then was this law written? That we may study it and receive reward". As we know, the laws of a rebellious son (ben sorer umoreh), whose details have similarly troubled scholars of all generations, are likewise described by the Tosefta and the Talmuds: "There has never been a stubborn and rebellious son and never will be. Why then was this law written? That we may study it and receive reward". (Tosefta Sanhedrin 11,6; Talmud Sanhedrin 71a)."

The underlying question is "is it ok that in a theocracy, the religious court can institute a death penalty for cries against the religious code". My answer is that that's part of what the theocracy is.

So are you essentially saying if you were in this ideal Jewish Theocracy, execution for idolatry (along with the wife and children) could very well happen?
It sounds like it's supposed to be some sort of morality exercise, in what is an acceptible form of punishment for Idolatry.

 

[rosends]

So are you essentially saying if you were in this ideal Jewish Theocracy, execution for idolatry (along with the wife and children) could very well happen?
It sounds like it's supposed to be some sort of morality exercise, in what is an acceptible form of punishment for Idolatry.

In a strict Pharisaic theocracy, there is such a thing as capital punishment though even in the case of individual it is extremely difficult to put into effect. The particular laws are for study whether or not it is the time of such a theocracy. Saying "cold very well happen" ignores the actual methodology of both the laws of the errant city and the individual sinner.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Does Jewish Law permit the death penalty for entire cities?

Read my above explanation. If you do not understand - tell me which part you do not understand and I will try and explain further.

 

[Aquitaine]

Read my above explanation. If you do not understand - tell me which part you do not understand and I will try and explain further.

Sorry, I misread you previous answer, thought the "no" was referring to whether or not they were inspired by Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[Aquitaine]

In a strict Pharisaic theocracy, there is such a thing as capital punishment though even in the case of individual it is extremely difficult to put into effect. The particular laws are for study whether or not it is the time of such a theocracy. Saying "cold very well happen" ignores the actual methodology of both the laws of the errant city and the individual sinner.

What's the reason for studying these laws if they're never going to be implemented? In your link it mentions studying them so you can be "rewarded", but rewarded with what exactly?

 

[rosends]

What's the reason for studying these laws if they're never going to be implemented? In your link it mentions studying them so you can be "rewarded", but rewarded with what exactly?

rewarded for study and focus on the religion. We learn logic and thinking, we gain insight into methodology and begin to appreciate the complexity and pervasiveness of the divine influence in all areas of life, and even beyond the life we live.