How do Baha’is see atheists?

[danieldemol]

I said it was fair if those Baha'is knowingly broke the laws of the country they live in.
Baha'is are obligated to follow the laws of the country they live in even if they do not agree with them.

I am not sure exactly what happened because it was @Truthseeker who shared this with me. Maybe he can jump in and explain exactly what happened.

There is an NBC video on it which is available here;

Activists rally for Iranian women’s rights on anniversary of hangings

Marjan Keypour, founder of the Alliance For Rights of All Minorities, speaks to NBC News’ Yasmin Vossoughian about violence against Iranian women on the 40th anniversary of the execution of 10 Baha'i women.

www.nbcnews.com

It reports they were teaching their faith at about the 1:10 mark.

I believe its strange that you would condemn your killed Baha'i comrades as being fairness on behalf of Iran's government just so you could avoid the special pleading fallacy.

In my opinion it comes across as being prepared to throw your fellow Baha'i under the bus rather than admit you spoke illogically. Where is the unity in that?!

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm talking about people who claim to be messengers.

Okay, so you are talking about false claimants. I can see why they would bother you. A true Messenger would never do that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yup, Baha’i is homophobic.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe its strange that you would condemn your killed Baha'i comrades as being fairness on behalf of Iran's government just so you could avoid the special pleading fallacy.

I did not condemn them and I was not trying to avoid the special pleading fallacy. I only said they should not have been teaching the Baha'i Faith in Iran if it is against the law.

In my opinion it comes across as being prepared to throw your fellow Baha'i under the bus rather than admit you spoke illogically. Where is the unity in that?!

There is nothing illogical about what I said. I said they should not be teaching the Baha'i Faith in Iran if they know the consequences.
In so doing they have chosen to be martyrs for the Cause of Baha'u'llah.

 

[F1fan]

This is what critical thinkers do when we read your posts about Baha'i laws that prejudice against gays.

I have never seen you post any concern about this prejudice against gays, which suggests you value Baha'i laws (your choice) over the dignity of gay people.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have never seen you post any concern about this prejudice against gays, which suggests you value Baha'i laws (your choice) over the dignity of gay people.

I do not have to choose between the two...
Any critical thinker could figure out why, but black and white thinking won't get you there since it is fallacious.

Black and White thinking, also known as either/or thinking may be defined as an extreme way of thinking where a person can only see one possibility. Finding the gray may be defined as being able to find more than one possibility or solution. Apr 9, 2019

Learning to See the Gray - EMPOWERED Counseling​

 

[F1fan]

I do not have to choose between the two...

You already have. You value your religious dogma more than dignity for gays. You never question the laws of Baha’i. Have you ever considered that the laws against gays are unjustified?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You already have. You value your religious dogma more than dignity for gays. You never question the laws of Baha’i. Have you ever considered that the laws against gays are unjustified?

What do you mean by justified as a concept for morality?

 

[Trailblazer]

You already have. You value your religious dogma more than dignity for gays.

I value both since I am not a black and white thinker.

The Black-or-White Fallacy is the provision of only two alternatives in an argument when there are actually more options available. ... It's also sometimes called the Gray Fallacy, between black and white options, or the middle-ground fallacy, after a middle ground between two warring camps.
black and white fallacy examples in politics - nazwa.pl

You never question the laws of Baha’i.

I might question some of them but I don't think I know more than the All-Knowing God since that is logically impossible.
It would also be highly arrogant for me to think I know more than God.

Have you ever considered that the laws against gays are unjustified?

There are no laws 'against gays.' There are only laws that preclude sex out of wedlock for both heterosexuals and homosexuals and laws that state that Baha'i marriage can only be between a man and a woman. I do not consider that unjustified since the purpose of marriage is for procreation and raising children, and only a man and a woman can procreate.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are no laws 'against gays.'

You are wrong here. The law says 38.5 grams of gold (9 mithqal) valued today at some USD 2,400 for the first offense and double that for a repetition. It is very clearly mentioned by Bahaollah. So, Bahais can trade wrong-doings for money and merit.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are wrong here. The law says 38.5 grams of gold (9 mithqal) valued today at some USD 2,400 for the first offense and double that for a repetition. It is very clearly mentioned by Bahaollah. So, Bahais can trade wrong-doings for money and merit.

Which wrongdoings? Can you cite that law from the Aqdas?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Which wrongdoings? Can you cite that law from the Aqdas?

It never pays to challenge Aupmanyav. Read it here:

"God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice nine mithqals of gold, to be doubled if they should repeat the offence . . . Although the term translated here as adultery refers, in its broadest sense, to unlawful sexual intercourse between either married or unmarried individuals (see note 36 for a definition of the term), `Abdu’l-Baha has specified that the punishment here prescribed is for sexual intercourse between persons who are unmarried . . . In relation to the application of the fine, Baha’u’llah clearly specifies that each succeeding fine is double the preceding one; thus the fine imposed increases in geometrical progression." ( Baha’u’llah, The Kitabi Aqdas, pp. 200–202.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Also, realize that what is presented here are not Bahaollah's words (except for the first underlined text). They are explanations by later editors of the God's message. It is wrong to try to modify God's word as given by Bahaollah and give their source as Kitab-i-Aqdas. Allah's retribution is terrible. Abdul Baha, Shoghi and the members of House of Justice should fear the wrath of their God, and not go on blithly corrupting what Allah said.

 

[Trailblazer]

Also, realize that what is presented here are not Bahaollah's words (except for the first underlined text). They are explanations by later editors of the God's message. It is wrong to try to modify God's word as given by Bahaollah and give their source as Kitab-i-Aqdas. Allah's retribution in fall on Abdul Baha, Shoghi and the members of House of Justice for such acts.

You have a valid point.

 

[ppp]

I am a Baha’i, and I have posted to a lot of atheists over the last 10 years on various forums so I am well aware of their position about God’s existence.

As I see it, regarding God’s existence there are three mutually exclusive logical possibilities, given the evidence we have.

1. God exists and sends Messengers to communicate to humans (theist), or​

2. God exists and doesn’t communicate to humans (deist), or​

3. God does not exist (atheist)​

Atheists hold the third logical position, that God doesn’t exist. I consider that to be a logical position since there is no proof that God exists.

I know what I think about atheists, but I never knew what other Baha’is think, so I was happy to see this thread posted on a Baha'i Forum.
For any Baha’is or atheists who are curious what Baha’is think about atheists you can read on this thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comments/13vz3t2

In reality, most of us hold the position that we have no reason to credit you (or other theists) when you say that your particular god or gods exist. While some uf us do say that no gods exist, for you to claim that atheists (without qualification) claim that "God (presumably yours) does not exist" means that you are either being dishonest or incapable of grasping the nuance of human thought any finer than a sledgehammer.

 

[Trailblazer]

In reality, most of us hold the position that we have no reason to credit you (or other theists) when you say that your particular god or gods exist. While some uf us do say that no gods exist, for you to claim that atheists (without qualification) claim that "God (presumably yours) does not exist" means that you are either being dishonest or incapable of grasping the nuance of human thought any finer than a sledgehammer.

There is no need to be insulting. I know the atheist position on God(s) since I have been posting almost exclusively to atheists for over 10 years night and day on several religious forums.

I was generalizing for the purpose of the OP.
When I said that the atheist position is [3. God does not exist (atheist)] I meant that atheists do not believe that God exists. Most atheists are agnostic atheists so they are not saying that God does not exist. They are only saying they don't believe that God exists since they do not see any evidence for God.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

There is no need to be insulting. I know the atheist position on God(s) since I have been posting almost exclusively to atheists for over 10 years night and day on several religious forums.

You're used to debate people who don't think about these topics very much and disbelieve in God because of their gut instinct. I have brought up numerous points of debate Baha'is, from the point of view I present, and I have yet to hear any compelling defenses against my arguments so far. Everything that I brought up in @Truthseeker 's thread that I made a two-part post today is exactly how I feel about your religion. In this I made several arguments of the fallibility of your religion. I suggest if you want a real challenge you debate someone like me, as I am someone who has been intimately involved and educated on your religion.

 

[ppp]

There is no need to be insulting. I know the atheist position on God(s) since I have been posting almost exclusively to atheists for over 10 years night and day on several religious forums.

Then you should know better.

I was generalizing for the purpose of the OP.

Don't do that. It is insulting. It is like saying that "black people sho' can dance" or that "women be shoppin'." False generalizations are lazy and mean. ANd it is worse when you claim that someone is insulting you when your are called on it.

When I said that the atheist position is [3. God does not exist (atheist)] I meant that atheists do not believe that God exists.

Then you should have said that. As opposed to the false stereotype that you chose instead.

I am an atheist, and I don't believe that any gods exists. I am black, and I dance like a tangled pile of coat hangers. Please don't sterotype me.

Thanks!

 

[Trailblazer]

You're used to debate people who don't think about these topics very much and disbelieve in God because of their gut instinct. I have brought up numerous points of debate Baha'is, from the point of view I present, and I have yet to hear any compelling defenses against my arguments so far. Everything that I brought up in @Truthseeker 's thread that I made a two-part post today is exactly how I feel about your religion. In this I made several arguments of the fallibility of your religion. I suggest if you want a real challenge you debate someone like me, as I am someone who has been intimately involved and educated on your religion.

Thanks for your input on that thread. I will respond to it as soon as I have time and am awake enough to be coherent at the same time.