How do Christians feel about Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10:1-25?

[Freedomelf]

I am curious and wish to ask a respectful question. In Jeremiah, it talks about decorated trees. I wonder how so many Christian churches can have Christmas trees when the Bible expressly calls it heathen, and says of the people who do these things: "neither also is it in them to do good"? Is there some justification of which I am unaware?

I was a Sunday School teacher for 20 years, and I was never able to come up with a satisfying answer for this and other questions. During this holiday season, perhaps someone else can try. Thank you.


10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

 

[Shiranui117]

This is clearly not talking about Christmas trees that are put up for decoration and for the sake of cultural tradition. Rather, it is speaking of using wood to fashion idols or sacred poles that are worshipped as gods.

EDIT: IOW, using trees for decorative and festive purposes=A-OK. Using trees to worship as idols and false gods=bad.

 

[Desert Snake]

This is clearly not talking about Christmas trees that are put up for decoration and for the sake of cultural tradition. Rather, it is speaking of using wood to fashion idols or sacred poles that are worshipped as gods.

EDIT: IOW, using trees for decorative and festive purposes=A-OK. Using trees to worship as idols and false gods=bad.

Exactly, those are just symbols that while although once may have been heathen idolatry related, are now just part of the culture in which Christianity flourished. Some of those pagan celebrations were massive affairs, state funded, look at Greece and Rome, we see them as a minor part of culture now however at one time these symbols and customs, and beliefs, were part of everyday life. Inevitably there were going to be customs that survived the change in religion.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

This is from an infamous Book I read...
"Have you ever wondered what the Christmas Tree has to do with the Birth of Christ? Or the ornaments you place on the tree, or the meaning of the word, 'YULETIDE?' Or where the tradition of the mistletoe came from and how it became a symbol of Christmas? Reader, they have nothing whatsoever to do with the birth of Jesus, but are some of the traditions observed to honor the birth of pagan godchild Tammuz. There is no Scriptural evidence that supports the Birth of Christ as being December 25th; but history says December 25th was kept thousands of years before the Birth of Christ, in honor of the pagan Messiah. Another name for Tammuz, the pagan god-child, was 'Baal-bereth,' which means: 'Lord of the Fir-Tree.'
"The Sun-god, the Mother goddess, and her son, according to Babylonian mythology were mystically changed into trees. This is the origin of burning the Yule Log. Nimrod deified as the Sungod was symbolized by a big fir tree stripped of all its branches and cut almost to the ground. But the great serpent which symbolized the life restorer, whose name is Aesculapius, twists itself around the dead stock and lo, at its side a young tree - a tree of an entirely different kind, which is destined never to be cut down by hostile power; even the palm tree, the well known symbol of victory. People of Aryan stock who believed that the oak tree was a symbol of Zeus or Jupiter, believed that this Branch was of Mistletoe which grew on the oak tree, and to be kissed under the mistletoe would insure fertility. The Branch was a name given to the Christ, Isaiah 11:1 - 'AND THERE SHALL COME FORTH A ROD OUT OF THE STEM OF JESSE, AND A BRANCH SHALL GROW OUT OF HIS ROOTS.'
"Now take the word 'Yuletide.' The word yule is as Babylonian as Tammuz. The word yule is the Chaldee word for infant or little child, and the 25th of December was called by the pagan Anglo-Saxons,'Yule-day,' or Child's Day. The pagan Egyptians, and the Persians both observed the 25th of December as the birthday of their god.
"In Germanic Mythology, they too, had a supreme god to whom they gave sacrifice. These warlike people promised their god, whose name was TIWAZ, that if he would give them victory over their enemy, they would give to their god all the spoils of the battle. Like the Babylonians, they believed their gods could transform themselves into trees. If the god answered their prayers, they took their dead victims along with the spoils of war, and dragged them to their sacred grove, and there hung them on their sacred trees. Such offerings have been recovered from the bogs in Germany. This beget the origin of hanging ornaments from the Christmas Tree.
"Little sheep of the Lord's pasture, it is impossible to ignore the pagan Festival of Christmas. The World is commemorating the Birth of Christ, not Tammuz. There is an advantage during the Christmas season to preach the real Jesus of the Bible. However, we should keep ourselves from the vanities of the pagan Festival, not to mention the cost, and the deaths caused by lighted Christmas Trees.
"There is, however, an opportunity during the Christmas Season with its beautiful music, to make others aware that Christ is no longer a helpless babe in a manger, but is the Saviour of the world, the King of kings, Lord of lords. Many who think the Bible and its message is foolishness can be reached during the Christmas Season where it would be almost impossible to talk to them at another time. Even the Christmas Tree can be used to teach the children a great lesson. The children should be taught that it is a historical fact that placing bulbs, tinsel, and lights on a Christmas Tree is pure pagan heathenism.
"This pagan custom got its start from killing enemies and hanging their heads and their spoils from pagan sacred trees. It would not be a sin if an evergreen tree was set up in the church during the Christmas Season if it was done to be an object lesson. If the parents would take the money they spend each year on Christmas trees, bulbs, lights, and expensive presents, and give the money as an offering to advance the preaching of the Gospel, would not the Lord be pleased with such a self-sacrifice?"---(from the book) Illuminati 666

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Holiday means Holy- day and I personally don't celebrate Christmas. I don't recall the Bible mentioning anything about celebrating this day.

 

[Desert Snake]

Holiday means Holy- day and I personally don't celebrate Christmas. I don't recall the Bible mentioning anything about celebrating this day.

I made a thread about whether people celebrate Christmas or not, actually, in the Christianity DIR. It seems that if you feel that strongly about the origins of the holiday then you might have some reservations, it's understandable.

 

[Freedomelf]

I made a thread about whether people celebrate Christmas or not, actually, in the Christianity DIR. It seems that if you feel that strongly about the origins of the holiday then you might have some reservations, it's understandable.

I think this is true. I've met some people who will not have a Christmas tree precisely because of Jeremiah, and I respect them for it. These are the kinds of Christians that have read the Bible and choose to live as much as possible by it (while obeying current laws.) I find it strange that the Bible is one of the few books on earth in which every passage has a thousand different meanings, depending upon individual readers. If someone enjoys a particular tradition, they can find a way to talk themselves out of any meaning that conflicts with their own desires. They don't want to be reminded that God told them it was wrong. They don't want to be reminded that December 25 is a pagan holiday. They still attend midnight mass, and priests still perform the mass on December 25. God made black and white statements often in the Bible, and said that this and that were abominations. But nowadays, almost anything can be interpreted to mean something else.

I have never been able to conveniently interpret any thing that I wished were not in the Bible. It troubles me. That's probably why I stopped believing in it. If I were able to talk myself into my own convenient interpretation, I would probably still be an Episcopalian.

 

[Freedomelf]

This is clearly not talking about Christmas trees that are put up for decoration and for the sake of cultural tradition. Rather, it is speaking of using wood to fashion idols or sacred poles that are worshipped as gods.

EDIT: IOW, using trees for decorative and festive purposes=A-OK. Using trees to worship as idols and false gods=bad.

Please point out the passage in the Bible that states this. I couldn't find it, and I've read the Bible quite extensively. Thanks

 

[savagewind]

It is not about a cut down tree. It is about carving the likeness of an idol.

Strong's Hebrew: 2796. "craftsman"

For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel Then they put on it gold and silver (Remember Egypt?) and it cannot stand on it's own verse 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter It is noteworthy that the idol needs nails to stand as it has no power of it's own even to stand upright.

 

[idea]

Abraham worshiped in a grove of trees...

(Old Testament | Genesis 21:33)
33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.


The tree of life is a pretty big Christian symbol...
(New Testament | Revelation 2:7)
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

I see trees as a very sacred symbol of something that is now veiled - just as only high priests were allowed into the Holy of Holies, or allowed to touch the ark, I think only certain people are given to know the reality for which some trees stand... others, who might abuse, or not hold sacred, that info, are not allowed to worship in groves, or enter the temple, or touch the ark etc. etc. sacred things are reserved for those who have been given personal revelation on it.

 

[Shiranui117]

Please point out the passage in the Bible that states this. I couldn't find it, and I've read the Bible quite extensively. Thanks

I'm using the very example you gave in your OP, that of Jeremiah 10. Let's walk through this:

10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Here it is clear that the "way of the heathen" mentioned is, specifically, the crafting of idols which would then be worshipped as gods. In fact, if you read between the lines, you'll see that almost every time a "molded image" or "graven image" or any other kind of man-made "image" is mentioned in the Old Testament, it is basically assumedthat the"image," "pole," etc. would be worshipped as a god, or taken as a symbol of a god.

10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

In other words, idols are just hunks of wood, stone or precious metal, as we all know. They are not embodied by gods or anything like that, and they have no power. Here one can see that many thought of these idols or graven images or sacred poles as having some sort of divine power, and thus were worshipped. Here, God is basically telling us that these assumptions are wrong.

10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

And here it is reiterated that idols are in fact powerless; only God is the true god, and man-made images are not fit to be worshipped, for they pale in comparison to God.

And here are further examples in the OT of the "man-made images=idols/false gods" concept.

Leviticus 26:1
[ Promise of Blessing and Retribution ] ‘You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:4
‘Do not turn to idols, nor make for yourselves molded gods: I am the LORD your God.

Psalm 115:4
Their idols are silver and gold, The work of men’s hands.

Psalm 135:15
The idols of the nations are silver and gold, The work of men’s hands.

Hosea 13:2
Now they sin more and more, And have made for themselves molded images, Idols of their silver, according to their skill; All of it is the work of craftsmen. They say of them, “Let the men who sacrifice kiss the calves!”

Exodus 20:4-5
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Do you see how, in the OT, the idea of making images was inextricably bound up with the idea of worshipping said images as gods?

But, if you wish to say that ALL man-made images go against Jeremiah 10 and the Ten Commandments, then you are logically obligated to also object to all forms of art, including paintings, ceramics, portraits, photograhy, digital art, film, sculptures, statues and reliefs of anything that "anything in heaven above or in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

However, if you make the distinction between making images/statues/other artwork for decoration and enjoyment, versus making images to worship them as gods or as rivals to God, then there is no problem.

 

[idea]

The story I was told, was about a mighty hunter named Nimrod - he was an evil man, went around raping and pillaging with a group of thugs in all these different kingdoms. Because he was wanted in multiple kingdoms, when he was finally arrested and killed, his body was cut into pieces, and the pieces sent to all the different kingdoms who were after him so that they could all know he was dead. Nimrod's mother, who was also his wife/lover, was really upset about this. She instituted a ceremony among Nimrod's followers on the shortest day of the year - a ceremony to bring life back to that which was cut up and destroyed. On the longest night, she cut down an evergreen tree - the tree that still had green life in it through the winter - and she burned it (yule log) in a bone-fire... then the next morning, the tree that had previously been cut up and burned was found to be resurrected and alive, gloriously decorated with lights and food - and she would declare that her son was still living despite what others had done to his body....

I'm not sure where that story came from...

The tree of good and evil... and the tree of life... different trees represent different things I guess.

 

[heksesang]

The tradition of Christmas trees comes from heathen beliefs long ago. These religions of old used to worship the trees, and basically God says that's stupid.

When religions 'defeat' other religions, it is common practice for them to take anything that 'belonged' to the old religion and use it within the framework of their own religion. That's why we have Christmas trees, that's why we celebrate Christmas in December. It makes it easier for people not having to scrap all the old traditions just because you got a new religion (think of all the old decorations etc. you'd have to make all over, or how you'd have to adjust the official holidays which might interfere with other special days etc.).

It's really just traditions, and I don't believe God cares much if we keep traditions. It's not like we're stupid enough to think that the trees do anything beside looking pretty and possibly burn down the house due to bad wiring.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

"Now take the word 'Yuletide.' The word yule is as Babylonian as Tammuz. The word yule is the Chaldee word for infant or little child, and the 25th of December was called by the pagan Anglo-Saxons,'Yule-day,' or Child's Day. The pagan Egyptians, and the Persians both observed the 25th of December as the birthday of their god.

Yule is the modern English representative of the Old English words ġéol or ġéohol and ġéola or ġéoli, with the former indicating "(the 12-day festival of) Yule" (later: "Christmastide") and the latter indicating "(the month of) Yule", whereby ǽrra ġéola referred to the period before the Yule festival (December) and æftera ġéola referred to the period after Yule (January). Both words are thought to be derived from Common Germanic *jeχʷla-, and are cognate to Gothic (fruma) jiuleis and Old Norse (Icelandic and Faroese) jól (Danish and Swedish jul and Norwegian jul or jol) as well as ýlir.[1] The etymological pedigree of the word, however, remains uncertain, though numerous speculative attempts have been made to find Indo-European cognates outside the Germanic group.[2]
The noun Yuletide is first attested from around 1475.[3]

Yule martks the end of the year and the dating is the 21st, the date of the winter solstice. THAT'S the reason for the season.

"In Germanic Mythology, they too, had a supreme god to whom they gave sacrifice. These warlike people promised their god, whose name was TIWAZ, that if he would give them victory over their enemy, they would give to their god all the spoils of the battle. Like the Babylonians, they believed their gods could transform themselves into trees. If the god answered their prayers, they took their dead victims along with the spoils of war, and dragged them to their sacred grove, and there hung them on their sacred trees.

Cripes, this is so inaccurate.

Tiwaz is Tyr. Some tribes saw him as more ascendant than Odin, or Thor; it varied across the tribes. None of them transformed into trees, ffs.

While we did take foes' heads on occasion, and leave sacrifices in bogs, we didn't hang em on holiday trees. You might be thinking of nidhstang poles but these were curse-poles and we used horse or cow skulls for that.

I know this is a DIR but I was just trying to be accurate, in terms of things you might not actually know.

 

[Desert Snake]

I think this is true. I've met some people who will not have a Christmas tree precisely because of Jeremiah, and I respect them for it. These are the kinds of Christians that have read the Bible and choose to live as much as possible by it (while obeying current laws.) I find it strange that the Bible is one of the few books on earth in which every passage has a thousand different meanings, depending upon individual readers. If someone enjoys a particular tradition, they can find a way to talk themselves out of any meaning that conflicts with their own desires. They don't want to be reminded that God told them it was wrong. They don't want to be reminded that December 25 is a pagan holiday. They still attend midnight mass, and priests still perform the mass on December 25. God made black and white statements often in the Bible, and said that this and that were abominations. But nowadays, almost anything can be interpreted to mean something else.

I have never been able to conveniently interpret any thing that I wished were not in the Bible. It troubles me. That's probably why I stopped believing in it. If I were able to talk myself into my own convenient interpretation, I would probably still be an Episcopalian.

There is so much pagan imagery in art etc., how do you possibly avoid having any of it?

 

[heksesang]

I think this is true. I've met some people who will not have a Christmas tree precisely because of Jeremiah, and I respect them for it. These are the kinds of Christians that have read the Bible and choose to live as much as possible by it (while obeying current laws.) I find it strange that the Bible is one of the few books on earth in which every passage has a thousand different meanings, depending upon individual readers. If someone enjoys a particular tradition, they can find a way to talk themselves out of any meaning that conflicts with their own desires. They don't want to be reminded that God told them it was wrong. They don't want to be reminded that December 25 is a pagan holiday. They still attend midnight mass, and priests still perform the mass on December 25. God made black and white statements often in the Bible, and said that this and that were abominations. But nowadays, almost anything can be interpreted to mean something else.

I have never been able to conveniently interpret any thing that I wished were not in the Bible. It troubles me. That's probably why I stopped believing in it. If I were able to talk myself into my own convenient interpretation, I would probably still be an Episcopalian.

Just because December 25 is a holiday for pagans doesn't mean it cannot be a holiday for Christianity. God doesn't care when you celebrate, he cares what you celebrate.

 

[savagewind]

I am sure the Nimrod story came after the fact, not before. Haha One must learn how to apply human nature to these things I think.

Applying the prohibition of idolatry to the tree by using a scripture that shows idolatry's degradation is belittling The Word for the purpose of propaganda.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day Colossians 2:16

"With regard to a festival" like home decorating. Gullible is what it is called to believe home decorating offends God.

 

[Freedomelf]

It is not about a cut down tree. It is about carving the likeness of an idol.

Strong's Hebrew: 2796. "craftsman"

For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel Then they put on it gold and silver (Remember Egypt?) and it cannot stand on it's own verse 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter It is noteworthy that the idol needs nails to stand as it has no power of it's own even to stand upright.

Again, this is a matter of interpretation. The new international version of the bible says that it is shaped with a chisel; the much older king james version does not say this. Everything in the Bible is a matter of interpretation by people who choose for it to mean something. People have been doing this for years. The new international version of the Bible bears little resemblance to the ancient Hebrew and Coptic versions. So what do we really have? We have a book that has been so mangled, no one can be positive anymore to its meaning. JMHO

 

[Freedomelf]

And as far as needing nails to hold it upright; have you ever seen a Christmas tree upright on its own? Nope...needs nails or screws to hold it up. Even a Christmas tree stand has nails or screws.

 

[Freedomelf]

I'm using the very example you gave in your OP, that of Jeremiah 10. Let's walk through this:


[/b]Here it is clear that the "way of the heathen" mentioned is, specifically, the crafting of idols which would then be worshipped as gods. In fact, if you read between the lines, you'll see that almost every time a "molded image" or "graven image" or any other kind of man-made "image" is mentioned in the Old Testament, it is basically assumedthat the"image," "pole," etc. would be worshipped as a god, or taken as a symbol of a god.
[/b]In other words, idols are just hunks of wood, stone or precious metal, as we all know. They are not embodied by gods or anything like that, and they have no power. Here one can see that many thought of these idols or graven images or sacred poles as having some sort of divine power, and thus were worshipped. Here, God is basically telling us that these assumptions are wrong.


And here it is reiterated that idols are in fact powerless; only God is the true god, and man-made images are not fit to be worshipped, for they pale in comparison to God.

And here are further examples in the OT of the "man-made images=idols/false gods" concept.

Leviticus 26:1
[ Promise of Blessing and Retribution ] ‘You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:4
‘Do not turn to idols, nor make for yourselves molded gods: I am the LORD your God.

Psalm 115:4
Their idols are silver and gold, The work of men’s hands.

Psalm 135:15
The idols of the nations are silver and gold, The work of men’s hands.

Hosea 13:2
Now they sin more and more, And have made for themselves molded images, Idols of their silver, according to their skill; All of it is the work of craftsmen. They say of them, “Let the men who sacrifice kiss the calves!”

Exodus 20:4-5
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Do you see how, in the OT, the idea of making images was inextricably bound up with the idea of worshipping said images as gods?

But, if you wish to say that ALL man-made images go against Jeremiah 10 and the Ten Commandments, then you are logically obligated to also object to all forms of art, including paintings, ceramics, portraits, photograhy, digital art, film, sculptures, statues and reliefs of anything that "anything in heaven above or in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

However, if you make the distinction between making images/statues/other artwork for decoration and enjoyment, versus making images to worship them as gods or as rivals to God, then there is no problem.

I believe this is interpretation of the words. And since the words have changed so much from version to version to version of the Bible, all we have now is the interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation of the Bible. All I'm saying is that anyone can interpret it to mean anything, because we really don't have the true words of the book.

Which reminds me of a group of Jewish scholars a few years back who published their findings, after a decade-long reading of the earliest Bible known. Needless to say, they were vilified for stating that the book is very, very different from the current version. That's troubling. People should be able to tell the truth without being hated for it, merely because it brings up inconvenient concepts.