How do Christians feel about Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10:1-25?

[Freedomelf]

The tradition of Christmas trees comes from heathen beliefs long ago. These religions of old used to worship the trees, and basically God says that's stupid.

When religions 'defeat' other religions, it is common practice for them to take anything that 'belonged' to the old religion and use it within the framework of their own religion. That's why we have Christmas trees, that's why we celebrate Christmas in December. It makes it easier for people not having to scrap all the old traditions just because you got a new religion (think of all the old decorations etc. you'd have to make all over, or how you'd have to adjust the official holidays which might interfere with other special days etc.).

It's really just traditions, and I don't believe God cares much if we keep traditions. It's not like we're stupid enough to think that the trees do anything beside looking pretty and possibly burn down the house due to bad wiring.

Lol, good point. I do agree that God doesn't care about the claptrap. And all religions have mutated because they have adopted other traditions and beliefs into their own. It's natural.

I think that God wants us to love, be kind, and treat all others with honesty and charity. God doesn't care what traditions we believe in, or even what we believe, as long as we strive to walk a path of goodness. Peace.

 

[Freedomelf]

There is so much pagan imagery in art etc., how do you possibly avoid having any of it?

Good point. I know a woman who is extreme in her views against current Christianity and Judaism. She wrote a book about how almost all Christians and Jews are going to hell, along with all non-Christians and Jews, because they have incorporated so many pagan things into their religions, that they now are pagan offshoots rather than Bible-based religions. I find her arguments fascinating, despite the fact that I don't believe God's sending anyone to Hell merely for innocent practices or beliefs that harm no one. For one thing, she is extremely against a Sunday Sabbath, claiming it must take place on Saturday. Meh....who cares? Anyway, you are right in this; it is nearly impossible to avoid, because Christianity has woven so much Pagan stuff into it.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Until Prince Albert introduced Christmas trees to Queen Victoria we knew nothing of them in the UK.
Trees may or may not have been used by other beliefs in time gone by. But they had no link at all to this new form of Christmas decoration.
Prior to their introduction Holly, Ivy, and mistletoe were the usual decorations, all of which had been " Christianised" from the ancient Celtic Druid traditions.

None of this relates to anything in the Bible. They were neither known about nor mentioned.
Christianity is full of useful symbols and uses what ever it can, to get its message to new believers. These things have all been used to enliven the Christmas story and to provide symbolic stories for our hymns of praise.

 

[Freedomelf]

I found a quote on the group of Orthodox Jewish scholars, and what they have found:

For many Jews and Christians, religion dictates that the words of the Bible in the original Hebrew are divine, unaltered and unalterable.
For Orthodox Jews, the accuracy is considered so inviolable that if a synagogue's Torah scroll is found to have a minute error in a single letter, the entire scroll is unusable.
But the ongoing work of the academic detectives of the Bible Project, as their undertaking is known, shows that this text at the root of Judaism, Christianity and Islam was somewhat fluid for long periods of its history, and that its transmission through the ages was messier and more human than most of us imagine.

This is an endeavor so meticulous, its pace so disconnected from that of the world outside, that in more than five decades of work the scholars have published a grand total of three of the Hebrew Bible's 24 books. (Christians count the same books differently, for a total of 39.) A fourth is due out during the upcoming academic year.
If the pace is maintained, the final product will be complete a little over 200 years from now. This is both a point of pride and a matter of some mild self-deprecation around the office.

Bible Project scholars have spent years combing through manuscripts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, Greek translations on papyrus from Egypt, a printed Bible from 1525 Venice, parchment books in handwritten Hebrew, the Samaritan Torah, and scrolls in Aramaic and Latin. The last member of the original team died last year at age 90.

Inevitable hiccups, scribal errors
The scholars note where the text we have now differs from older versions — differences that are evidence of the inevitable textual hiccups, scribal errors and other human fingerprints that became part of the Bible as it was passed on, orally and in writing.

A Microsoft Excel chart projected on one wall on a recent Sunday showed variations in a single phrase from the Book of Malachi, a prophet.
The verse in question, from the text we know today, makes reference to "those who swear falsely." The scholars have found that in quotes from rabbinic writings around the 5th century A.D., the phrase was longer: "those who swear falsely in my name."

The Book of Jeremiah is now one-seventh longer than the one that appears in some of the 2,000-year-old manuscripts known as the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Some verses, including ones containing a prophecy about the seizure and return of Temple implements by Babylonian soldiers, appear to have been added after the events happened.

The year the Bible Project began, 1958, was the year a priceless Hebrew Bible manuscript arrived in Jerusalem after it was smuggled out of Aleppo, Syria, by a Jewish cheese merchant who hid it in his washing machine.

This was the 1,100-year-old Aleppo Codex, considered the oldest and most accurate version of the complete biblical text in Hebrew.
The Bible Project's version of the core text — the one to which the others are compared — is based on this manuscript.

"A believing Jew claims that the source of the Bible is prophecy," said the project's bearded academic secretary, Rafael Zer. "But as soon as the words are given to human beings — with God's agreement, and at his initiative — the holiness of the biblical text remains, even if mistakes are made when the text is passed on."


If you want to read the whole article, it is here: Scholars seek to correct 'mistakes' in Bible - World news - Mideast/N. Africa | NBC News


So, it is not only interpretation that has colored the Bible, but it is also extensions that people have made to it, as well as prophecies that were added into older portions of the book after the events happened, in order to make it seem more "Godly." As they say, the Bible is a "fluid" document that has had a great deal of human influence to it. Therefore, we cannot know for certain what God said about idols, trees, or for that matter, anything else. Bear in mind that these scholars are working with a 1,100 year old document, in order to correct the mistakes made in the last 1100 years. However, we know that the Bible is many centuries older than that. Therefore, there will also have been mistakes made in the document that they are using to "correct" the current Bible. So they, too, are working on an "interpretation," rather than the absolute original work.

 

[Walkntune]

I personally don't have a tree up. Not because i am against them or live under laws but because I don't have children.If I had kids I would have one because kids love colorful lights.Other than that I try to celebrate the birth of Christ everyday and not just once a year.

 

[savagewind]

Again, this is a matter of interpretation. The new international version of the bible says that it is shaped with a chisel; the much older king james version does not say this. Everything in the Bible is a matter of interpretation by people who choose for it to mean something. People have been doing this for years. The new international version of the Bible bears little resemblance to the ancient Hebrew and Coptic versions. So what do we really have? We have a book that has been so mangled, no one can be positive anymore to its meaning. JMHO

OK? It seems "craftsman" is present in the original Greek. It has never eva taken the skill of a craftsman to cut down a tree. My point again was lost. Woe is me.

Jeremiah 10:3 Hebrew Texts and Analysis

 

[ChristineES]

I really don't think God minds decorations-- as long as we don't bow down and worship it- like a lot of others have said on this thread.

 

[Shiranui117]

I believe this is interpretation of the words. And since the words have changed so much from version to version to version of the Bible, all we have now is the interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation of the Bible. All I'm saying is that anyone can interpret it to mean anything, because we really don't have the true words of the book.

Which reminds me of a group of Jewish scholars a few years back who published their findings, after a decade-long reading of the earliest Bible known. Needless to say, they were vilified for stating that the book is very, very different from the current version. That's troubling. People should be able to tell the truth without being hated for it, merely because it brings up inconvenient concepts.

Does this mean that you think that the Bible is untrustworthy? If it's untrustworthy, then why even bother using it as evidence for our arguments? We don't know what verses and parts of the text were changed, added or deleted, and when, why or how these edits were done.

Again, this is a matter of interpretation. The new international version of the bible says that it is shaped with a chisel; the much older king james version does not say this. Everything in the Bible is a matter of interpretation by people who choose for it to mean something. People have been doing this for years. The new international version of the Bible bears little resemblance to the ancient Hebrew and Coptic versions. So what do we really have? We have a book that has been so mangled, no one can be positive anymore to its meaning. JMHO

You DO realize that we have more Biblical translations than just the NIV and KJV, right? The NIV and KJV are both pretty crappy translations, as you yourself noted. The New American Standard Bible, New Revised Standard Version and New King James Version are all solid translations.

 

[Freedomelf]

You DO realize that we have more Biblical translations than just the NIV and KJV, right? The NIV and KJV are both pretty crappy translations, as you yourself noted. The New American Standard Bible, New Revised Standard Version and New King James Version are all solid translations.

Since I was talking about other versions in several of my posts, it is likely that I knew there were other translations, ya think?

You mention that the new revised standard version and new kj version, etc, are all solid translations. Solid translations of what? Of a translation of a translation of a translation? As mentioned earlier, the Jewish scholars studying the Aleppo Bible have found profound differences to modern Bibles. And the Aleppo Bible is "only" 1100 years old, yet it is considered the most complete of the oldest Bibles and therefore, the best source for study. Yet the Aleppo Bible is no doubt different than the original one written many centuries (actually, millennia) earlier. If things changed that much in 1100 years, you can bet your bottom dollar that they probably changed at least as much in the previous 1500 years when the earliest books were written. (You need not ask if I know anything about when the old testament was written. I happen to believe modern linguists who study language patterns, and have placed the Books of Moses in the same language-pattern era used around 600BC. You are free to believe otherwise, and I won't denigrate your intelligence if you do....promise.)

You asked earlier if I doubt the Bible. The answer is absolutely. One cannot help but doubt it when they see such patterns of bias and interpretation emerge, even among the earliest Biblical works. And you asked why we should use it at all, if we doubt it. It is possible to narrow down a few "facts" from the various interpretations. If you take those few facts and try to base a life of goodness on those, I personally think you'd be on the right track. Of course, there are many "right" tracks, so no one can say that there is only one definitive source for God's word. Least of all, me.

 

[Desert Snake]

Good point. I know a woman who is extreme in her views against current Christianity and Judaism. She wrote a book about how almost all Christians and Jews are going to hell, along with all non-Christians and Jews, because they have incorporated so many pagan things into their religions, that they now are pagan offshoots rather than Bible-based religions. I find her arguments fascinating, despite the fact that I don't believe God's sending anyone to Hell merely for innocent practices or beliefs that harm no one. For one thing, she is extremely against a Sunday Sabbath, claiming it must take place on Saturday. Meh....who cares? Anyway, you are right in this; it is nearly impossible to avoid, because Christianity has woven so much Pagan stuff into it.

^+1 Agreed.