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How Do Evolutionists Explain Mass Extinctions in their Theories?

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Just to clarify- you are saying no abiogenesis was taking place during this period?
No. Just that the species we observe today evolved from the species that have survived in the past. I can't assert anything about abiogenesis occurring during this time.

How do you explain that abiogenesis would just stop?
Since we still don't fully understand how it occurs, I can't answer that.

I am just trying to understand your personal theory of evolution. It does not match all theories of evolution but that is OK.
I don't have a "personal theory" of evolution. I accept the current model.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
" The species we see today DID evolve from the species that survived these extinction events."

Just to clarify- you are saying no abiogenesis was taking place during this period?

How do you explain that abiogenesis would just stop?

I am just trying to understand your personal theory of evolution. It does not match all theories of evolution but that is OK.
Life is ubiquitous today, and has been ubiquitous on this planet for billions of years. The kind of materials and energy that would be required for abiogenesis to occur are already being used by existing life forms. I can't say for certain that abiogeneis does not occur on a planet where life is ubiquitous, it might. But it would be even more rare for it to occur on a living planet then on a lifeless planet, and the new life would probably not survive in completion with pre-existing life that has been evolving for eons of time. It might happen, I don't know. If it did happen we would never notice it.
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
Good.


Alright. Fair enough.

Personally, I do believe there's abiogenesis happening. And it might have been part of re-seeding the planet during those mass extinction events. Today, we don't see it because most matter that's usable is already taken by the organic life populating the planet.

And... I also believe that the structure of the universe, physics, etc, all are primed to produce life. Is it because there's a God behind it or not? Can't say. God would be also alive, so perhaps "life" is the true God of all things.


Thanks and we have some common ground then!

I believe there are some other mechanisms of evolution at play and that is why I brought up the subject of mass extinctions and it may mean abiogenesis, seeding by design or possibly a built in code in DNA that is triggered by environmental stressors to evolve.

I am just exploring all theories at this point!
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
No. Just that the species we observe today evolved from the species that have survived in the past. I can't assert anything about abiogenesis occurring during this time.


Since we still don't fully understand how it occurs, I can't answer that.


I don't have a "personal theory" of evolution. I accept the current model.

"No. Just that the species we observe today evolved from the species that have survived in the past."

How do you know the species today were not also a result of abiogenesis after a mass extinction if you are not sure abiogenesis stopped?
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
Life is ubiquitous today, and has been ubiquitous on this planet for billions of years. The kind of materials and energy that would be required for abiogenesis to occur are already being used by existing life forms. I can't say for certain that abiogeneis does not occur on a planet where life is ubiquitous, it might. But it would be even more rare for it to occur on a living planet then on a lifeless planet, and the new life would probably not survive in completion with pre-existing life that has been evolving for eons of time. It might happen, I don't know. If it did happen we would never notice it.

"But it would be even more rare for it to occur on a living planet then on a lifeless planet"

That seems counter to logic. If the conditions needed to sustain living things is present wouldn't that be the best conditions for inorganic material to form into an organic life form?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
How do you know the species today were not also a result of abiogenesis after a mass extinction if you are not sure abiogenesis stopped?
I don't, and I've never claimed that. But there is no evidence to suggest that any current species living on the planet appeared, or evolved from, an abiogenesis event subsequent to the initial one on earth. Your OP asks how we can accept that species took billions of years to evolve when we factor in mass-extinction events. The answer I gave is that life forms evolved from the survivors of these events.
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
This response wasn't to my post, but I'll butt in anyway. Of course abiogenesis might happen in parallel. No one denies that. I'm not sure why that would make evolution false?

We do know that there are biological matter in space, ethanol, methanol, and even amino acids. So the building blocks are obviously produced naturally, constantly.


My intention was not to make evolution false.

I believe there is some form of evolution mechanism going on. I am not tied to any of the specific theories and I believe at this point that more than one mechanism is involved.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
"But it would be even more rare for it to occur on a living planet then on a lifeless planet"

That seems counter to logic. If the conditions needed to sustain living things is present wouldn't that be the best conditions for inorganic material to form into an organic life form?
No, because the resources that sustain life are limited, and being used.
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
I don't, and I've never claimed that. But there is no evidence to suggest that any current species living on the planet appeared, or evolved from, an abiogenesis event subsequent to the initial one on earth. Your OP asks how we can accept that species took billions of years to evolve when we factor in mass-extinction events. The answer I gave is that life forms evolved from the survivors of these events.

"there is no evidence to suggest that any current species living on the planet appeared, or evolved from, an abiogenesis"

What evidence would you need to see that would not also be present if they appeared or evolved from an abiogenesis at any point in time?

No my OP question was "How do evolutionists explain mass extinctions in their theories?"
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
" The species we see today DID evolve from the species that survived these extinction events."

Just to clarify- you are saying no abiogenesis was taking place during this period?

How do you explain that abiogenesis would just stop?

I am just trying to understand your personal theory of evolution. It does not match all theories of evolution but that is OK.
Abiogenesis appears to have been a singular event, unlike evolution which is continuous (thus abiogensis is NOT a subset of evolution). The life forms that resulted quickly spread through the available and rather uniform niche space eliminating the potential for additional abiogenetic events by fully occupying the very simple niche space, "feeding" on the raw materials of what might have been other "starts" and altering the niche space itself (abiogenesis, evidently, occurred when earth had a carbon dioxide rich atmosphere without any free oxygen to speak of) which obviated the possibility of such a singular event (actually series of events) occurring again.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Now wait a minute?

what resources are you talking about that is necessary for abiogenesis to produce life that would be in short supply when that life is thriving on the planet?

Free carbon-based matter, for one. Once living beings extent through the planet and compete for space and resources with each other, the amount of matter available for spontaneous abiogenesis diminishes quite drammatically.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
The creationism vs evolution has become a false dichotomy. Especially when someone tries to put the whole evolution on task, and questions "evolution" without specifying any nuances or variations, it becomes a situation where one has to pick sides. I think the truth lies in between. So it's not "evolution is false, unless you can prove x, y, z!!!" Because that only shows that a person doesn't want to even allow a single small part of evolution to be true. And if they mention different alternative versions of it, then they need to be specific to which one they are arguing against.

Because the highlighted part is (easily) debatable, then the part that follows (truth lies between) is perhaps the one to be more affirmative about. I tend not to enter into the larger debate, because both strike me as tales of little import to how I live my daily life. I grant that either version likely has some influence on how I am living, regardless of how much, or how little, attention I pay to it. But in my daily life, all things considered, it comes up so very very very little.

But the notion of 'having to pick sides' does lend credence to what I was getting at. It then becomes a crusade of sorts to make sure that side is never seen as losing favor or what have you. I dunno. I get how the debate is set up, but also get that both sides currently have a clause of infallibility built into their position, making it so any questions (in between) better be phrased just humbly enough to never assume you might be poking at the foundation. Can't have none of that. That's the work of the 'devil.'

Me, I'm going to keep poking at the foundation. Don't need to do that in this thread, however.
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
Your citation is rather out of date, it neglects to analyze, or even mention by name, save as an tacked on note, the critically important Denisovans. Science changes (as you have observed) so citing current work is critical.

My thoughts are that there have been five extinctions and we are hell bent on creating the sixth. What is your question?

It takes a long time to evolve a species, even longer to evolve an entire ecosystem, and all can be snuffed out in a moment by a change of sufficient magnitude. This creates a lot of empty niche space and each evolution is followed by comparatively rapid (still quite slow in absolute terms) expansion of the number of new species and the open, low pressure niche space permits novel experimentation with regards to novel species and adaptations.

Additionally, your assumption that an extinction of 96% means that not only the extant species died, but that it did so without the benefit of producing evolutionary decedents may be a dangerous assumption, even when viewed at higher taxonomic levels. For example, it is safe to say that within the next 200 years, despite the fact that the human population continues to expand, 100% of the extant human genotypes will have gone extinct.

"My thoughts are that there have been five extinctions and we are hell bent on creating the sixth."

We agree on that.

"each evolution is followed by comparatively rapid expansion"

That does seem to be the case. Could that then be a built in trigger into DNA that a stressor would cause rapid evolution and if so what might climate change cause?

Do you believe abiogenesis was also taking place after these mass extinctions?

I simply posted the effects from the website and made no statement as to effect on decedents. I leave that for you to speculate on.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Abiogenesis appears to have been a singular even.....
Tis a minor point, but I don't buy this.
Since we don't know all the possible mechanisms or probability of such an event,
we don't know the frequency. Even though commonality of DNA suggests a singular origin, we don't know if it has multiple possible paths from inanimate to animate matter.
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
The defensiveness of some of the members is quite overboard. I am trying to bridge a gap so that we can discuss other theories of the origin of life but as soon as you mention intelligent design even without a God some of these guys go nuts.
No, you just expose your intellectual Achilles's heel. Unlike Darwinian evolution there is no supporting framework for intelligent design, but even a cursory examination of the products clearly demonstrates that intelligence is lacking in the design process. It does not matter if you invoke God (who falls to the knife edge of parsimony, skewered by Occam's razor) or you advance panspermia which just begs the recursive question, you lack support for any such claim. Darwinian evolution, however, suffers from no such problem.
 

Dante Writer

Active Member
Free carbon-based matter, for one. Once living beings extent through the planet and compete for space and resources with each other, the amount of matter available for spontaneous abiogenesis diminishes quite drammatically.

"Free carbon-based matter, for one."

How is free carbon based matter depleted since no material is ever created or destroyed and just changes form?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
What evidence would you need to see that would not also be present if they appeared or evolved from an abiogenesis at any point in time?
That depends. Like I said, we still don't fully understand the process, so we can't be sure of what we would need to look for. We just can't make assumptions about it.

No my OP question was "How do evolutionists explain mass extinctions in their theories?"
But you lead into that question by listing extinction events and rates and how they would have negatively impacted biological diversity, essentially asking how we explain biological diversity in light of these extinction events. And you also made statements like "Actually, the majority of life forms we see today happened in the much much shorter space of less than 200 million years" and "Modern humans are said to have evolved just 200,000 years ago". Are you suggesting that these are examples of evolution from abiogenesis events separate from the one that supposedly took place billions of years ago?
 
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