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How do members of other religions explain Christian faith healing?

There's a reason testimony is not a strong form of evidence and it has nothing to do with lack of interest in inquiry. I've met people who knew for sure they were seeing alien spacecraft in the sky and I knew for a fact they were seeing the last remains of some paper lanturns releases for a wedding miles away.
I also have an atheist grandmother who had spontaneous remission from 4th stage breast cancer (Or a delayed reaction to treatment, we don't know for sure which.) If she were religious and had people praying over her, it could easily have been considered evidence of faith healing when it was nothing of the sort.
That's why first hand testing and documentation are important. Much less room for perspective bias and memory inaccuracies.
As far as I know, there is no scientific explanation for the so-called 'spontaneous remissions'. They hypothesized various explanations, but failed to come to a conclusion. And something that science cannot explain is part of the dictionary definition of the word 'miracle'.

As for your grandmother, is she still alive? Have her doctors published any papers about her inexplicable remission? If yes, may I have a link to where I can read those papers? If not, why? Was she so insignificant to her doctors that nobody cared enough to investigate what happened, even if just as a way to bring attention upon their medical careers. Any oncologist who faces a 'spontaneous remission' is most likely not indifferent to it. They are quire rare.

The fact that she was an atheist is irrelevant. I clearly mentioned in this thread that God heals people belonging to all faiths. Nowhere did I claim that it happens only to Christians.

Well done for opening mouth and inserting foot....

According to you, there's no problem with the Son of God being horrifically beaten and crucified for hours until his death for something he had absolutely nothing to do with. God positively approved of his torture, humiliation and death, even though he stayed up all night desperately praying to be saved, to the point he was sweating blood, go figure that one out on the scales of fairness.
Nice non sequitur, but your statement has nothing to do with my question. It was Jesus' Will to do the Father's Will. He prayed that The Father's Will be done. Jesus clearly mentioned that He could summon up an army of angels to defend Him if He wanted to. But it was part of the plan for the salvation of humankind. How is that related in any way to the fact that, by healing a nonbeliever and letting a Muslim suffer, Allah would be unfair?
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How is that related in any way to the fact that, by healing a nonbeliever and letting a Muslim suffer, Allah would be unfair?
You don't know what God knows, so offering opinions on why and how is meaningless.

As for Jesus pbuh doing the father's will, how many will are there in the Trinity?
 
As for Jesus pbuh doing the father's will, how many will are there in the Trinity?
Just one, decided by All the Three Persons. The fact that Jesus was scared shows that He became human and therefore experienced human emotions and sensations: He was hungry - so He ate, He was thirsty - so He drank, He was sad (for Lazarus' family) - so He wept, He was scared - so He prayed.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Just one, decided by All the Three Persons. The fact that Jesus was scared shows that He became human and therefore experienced human emotions and sensations: He was hungry - so He ate, He was thirsty - so He drank, He was sad (for Lazarus' family) - so He wept, He was scared - so He prayed.
If one will, then why did Jesus say, not my will, but the father's will?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
As far as I know, there is no scientific explanation for the so-called 'spontaneous remissions'. They hypothesized various explanations, but failed to come to a conclusion. And something that science cannot explain is part of the dictionary definition of the word 'miracle'.
There is study on spontaneous remission but I doubt there is any one conclusion to come to. The reasons for it, like the reasons for cancers and all their various manifestations, is more likely multifarious. Expecting a one single conclusion is, imo, unrealistic.
Miracle being defined as anything currently beyond science is also the dictionary definition of a god of the gaps argument, or an argument from ignorance. Not having all the answers doesn't make divine intervention a more likely answer than a yet unknown naturalistic answer.

As for your grandmother, is she still alive? Have her doctors published any papers about her inexplicable remission? If yes, may I have a link to where I can read those papers? If not, why? Was she so insignificant to her doctors that nobody cared enough to investigate what happened, even if just as a way to bring attention upon their medical careers. Any oncologist who faces a 'spontaneous remission' is most likely not indifferent to it. They are quire rare.
Yes, she is still alive. No, I don't know if any study was done off her case study. Most case studies do not release patient names nor inform patients beyond the initial consent forms. But, like I said, even if there were monitors sewn into every aspect of her endocrine system it's unlikely they'd be able to plot all variables that went into it. The body is complicated, that doesn't mean that spontaneous remission is any more miraculous than the confluence of events that make up certain very rare cancers, for example.

The fact that she was an atheist is irrelevant. I clearly mentioned in this thread that God heals people belonging to all faiths. Nowhere did I claim that it happens only to Christians.
Hardly faith healing, then, if nobody was praying and nobody was showing faith.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Statistically speaking, faith healing is a concept that happens predominantly in Christianity and, although miraculous healing has occurred in other religions too, the numbers seem to be higher among Christians. There are several Christian denominations (The Last Reformation, the Charismatics etc.) who focus on healing people through the power of prayer. You can find thousands of videos related to Christian faith healing on YouTube.

Faith healing - Wikipedia

How do members of other religions explain the numerous healing cases recorded within Christianity? And before you ask me how Christians view the miracles of other religions, let me go ahead and say that there's a lot of debate about it, but in the end we have concluded that we don't really have a clear answer. Is that the same view non-Christians have or do you have other opinions?

As mention by previous posters... 'faith healing' is nothing more than the placebo effect in action. Any time that such healing are subjected to genuine scientific scrutiny they are shown to be nonsense.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
"Faith Healing" is a scam perpetrated by charlatans taking advantage of the vulnerable and desperate. Which is despicable. It's a placebo affect, mixed with coincidence and spurned on by confirmation bias. I don't even believe in faith healing in my own religion.
 

arthra

Baha'i
How do members of other religions explain the numerous healing cases recorded within Christianity?

I think generally Baha'is believe there can be healings in Christianity and we accept that healings can occur among Baha'is as well..

"...Whenever thou presentest thyself at the bed of a patient turn thy face toward the Lord of the Kingdom and supplicate assistance from the Holy Spirit and heal the ailments of the sick one."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 688


It's also true that Baha'is believe we should make use of competent physicians and that we can receive healing through Medical science and that we should heed the advices of our physicians:

"Illness which occur by reason of physical causes should be treated by doctors with medical remedies; those which are due to spiritual causes disappear trough spiritual means. Thus an illness caused by affliction fear, nervous impressions, will be helped more effectively by spiritual rather than by physical treatment. Hence, both kinds of treatment should be followed; they are not contradictory. Therefore, thou shouldst also accept physical remedies inasmuch as these too have come from the mercy and favour of God, Who hath revealed and made manifest medical science so that His servants may profit from this kind of treatment also. Thou shouldst give equal attention to spiritual treatments, for they produce marvellous effects. "Now if thou wishest to know the true remedy which will heal man from all sickness and will give him the health of the Divine kingdom, know that it is the precepts and teachings of God. Focus thine attention upon them."

~ 'Abdu'l-Bahá: Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, pp. 151-152

We have no "faith healers" as such in the Baha'i Faith.. that is, people going around claiming they can heal another person through prayer and solicit renown.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Statistically speaking, faith healing is a concept that happens predominantly in Christianity and, although miraculous healing has occurred in other religions too, the numbers seem to be higher among Christians. There are several Christian denominations (The Last Reformation, the Charismatics etc.) who focus on healing people through the power of prayer. You can find thousands of videos related to Christian faith healing on YouTube.

Faith healing - Wikipedia

How do members of other religions explain the numerous healing cases recorded within Christianity? And before you ask me how Christians view the miracles of other religions, let me go ahead and say that there's a lot of debate about it, but in the end we have concluded that we don't really have a clear answer. Is that the same view non-Christians have or do you have other opinions?
While I know that God may listen at times to prayers for healing, it is not as in the days of Christ. It is not a matter of simply saying, 'be healed !'

Scripture even indicates that it wouldn't be so presently.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
You can find thousands of videos related to Christian faith healing on YouTube.
I'd say be wary of YouTube, don't get me wrong I think it can be a great window on the world but it is choc full of religious, pseudo scientific junk that seems to be a magnet to a particular type of person. Religious people, ufologists, conspiracy theorists, people who believe in ghost etc. appear to be too willing to believe them as they look for confirmation of their pre-existing beliefs. If you are interested in the effectiveness of "faith healing" there are scientific studies you can look at, if you can find some that conclude there is a statistically significant cause and effect at play you will no doubt give sceptical types like me something to think about. YouTube clips and anecdotal evidence just doesn't cut it.

Your OP did put me in mind of this skit about "alternative medicine" though, makes me chuckle!
 
I'd say be wary of YouTube, don't get me wrong I think it can be a great window on the world but it is choc full of religious, pseudo scientific junk that seems to be a magnet to a particular type of person. Religious people, ufologists, conspiracy theorists, people who believe in ghost etc. appear to be too willing to believe them as they look for confirmation of their pre-existing beliefs. If you are interested in the effectiveness of "faith healing" there are scientific studies you can look at, if you can find some that conclude there is a statistically significant cause and effect at play you will no doubt give sceptical types like me something to think about. YouTube clips and anecdotal evidence just doesn't cut it.
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure how trustworthy science can be, considering that it puts the well-being of rich corporations above the human lives of poor citizens who cannot afford to buy medicine. And I'm not so sure how trustworthy science can be, when it can only offer survival rates of 50% or less after decades of research and billions of dollars of investments. You know who else offers the same rates of survival? Naturopaths and those who the pharmaceutical industry calls "quackers". If you look at the alternative cancer clinics that were banned by the USA government and had to move to other countries, and the doctors who lost their practice licenses because they supported alternative cancer treatments, you can't help but wonder, why were they so quietly brushed away? If the alternative treatments provided by the clinics were harmful, why didn't researchers publish some papers about it in medical journals? Why weren't there public announcements about it? Could it be because there was actually something more to it than the pharmaceutical industry was willing to admit?
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure how trustworthy science can be, considering that it puts the well-being of rich corporations above the human lives of poor citizens who cannot afford to buy medicine.
Right, so you're a conspiracy theorist as well? Whether "poor citizens" can afford medicine is a social issue, it is up to the government to ensure that the poor and vulnerable in society get adequate health care, not "science".

I live in the UK where the NHS means people on low income get access to scientifically proven medical treatment rather than quack "alternative" medicine by the way. It is a model I firmly believe works and should be adopted by every nation.
And I'm not so sure how trustworthy science can be, when it can only offer survival rates of 50% or less after decades of research and billions of dollars of investments. You know who else offers the same rates of survival? Naturopaths and those who the pharmaceutical industry calls "quackers".

Dear me, tell me where you got those figures from, it doesn't even make sense. Survival rates of 50% of what? Any particular ailment in mind? It is not only the pharmaceutical industry that calls the practitioners of alternative medicine "quacks", anyone with an appreciation of science and the massive benefits modern medicine has given us calls them quacks as well.
If you look at the alternative cancer clinics that were banned by the USA government and had to move to other countries, and the doctors who lost their practice licenses because they supported alternative cancer treatments, you can't help but wonder, why were they so quietly brushed away? If the alternative treatments provided by the clinics were harmful, why didn't researchers publish some papers about it in medical journals? Why weren't there public announcements about it? Could it be because there was actually something more to it than the pharmaceutical industry was willing to admit?
Perhaps they were banned because they are based on pseudo science, and offer nothing but false hope to the poor people desperate enough to try their snake oil? Just because a "treatment" doesn't harm you doesn't mean it should be allowed to tout itself as "medicine". The important bit is whether it actually works, and forget placebo effect. A sugar pill can have a powerful placebo effect, I don't hear anyone calling sugar pills medicine.
Stay off the YouTube for a while Lucian, there are more sober sources of information available!
 
Perhaps they were banned because
When you talk about an illness that kills millions of people every year and whose researchers receive billions of dollars every year to not come up with anything better than chemotherapy and radiation, and you start your argument against alternative medicine with the word "perhaps" (as if it was some minor inconvenience, not the 5th cause of death worldwide), you just lost all credibility.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
When you talk about an illness that kills millions of people every year and whose researchers receive billions of dollars every year to not come up with anything better than chemotherapy and radiation, and you start your argument against alternative medicine with the word "perhaps" (as if it was some minor inconvenience, not the 5th cause of death worldwide), you just lost all credibility.
The only person who is losing credibility is you. You did not specify which alternative therapy you had in mind that you accused scientists of suppressing. Thus his reply was perfectly justified. So far the only thing you have done is level unsubstantiated and eccentric accusations and linked wholly unverifiable you tube videos. This is not enhancing your credibility here at all. If you are going to level accusations against the medical and scientific community who had spent tens of hard years in gaining the expertise necessary to treat complex diseases and advance insight into human biology, you better back up your claims with good evidence.
 
wholly unverifiable you tube videos.
I fail to see how videos in which you can clearly read the full names of the patients and the links to their social media or websites could be labelled 'unverifiable'. They seem very verifiable to me. The fact that you're not willing to contact those people (who have no reason to do anything more than to offer their testimonials) in order to confirm or infirm your accusations is no reason to classify them as 'unverifiable'.

As for the scientific community, the fact that it has spent hard years gaining expertise is nothing more than an argumentum ad verecundiam. Their credibility should not be a logical consequence of their authority in the field if they do not provide the adequate means of verification for their scientific opinions. Firstly, whether they possess that knowledge or not is debatable, considering the mediocre state that medical advancements are today in comparison to other branches of technology. Secondly, if they do possess that knowledge, it's debatable whether the knowledge is of significant relevance, considering that many famous inventors had no academic studies in the fields that consecrated them. Thirdly, even if they do possess the knowledge and the knowledge is of significant relevance, that does not denote that they also possess the moral compass to make that knowledge available against their well-being if presented with offers (or threats) to keep the knowledge obscured.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I fail to see how videos in which you can clearly read the full names of the patients and the links to their social media or websites could be labelled 'unverifiable'. They seem very verifiable to me. The fact that you're not willing to contact those people (who have no reason to do anything more than to offer their testimonials) in order to confirm or infirm your accusations is no reason to classify them as 'unverifiable'.

As for the scientific community, the fact that it has spent hard years gaining expertise is nothing more than an argumentum ad verecundiam. Their credibility should not be a logical consequence of their authority in the field if they do not provide the adequate means of verification for their scientific opinions. Firstly, whether they possess that knowledge or not is debatable, considering the mediocre state that medical advancements are today in comparison to other branches of technology. Secondly, if they do possess that knowledge, it's debatable whether the knowledge is of significant relevance, considering that many famous inventors had no academic studies in the fields that consecrated them. Thirdly, even if they do possess the knowledge and the knowledge is of significant relevance, that does not denote that they also possess the moral compass to make that knowledge available against their well-being if presented with offers (or threats) to keep the knowledge obscured.
Why would I spend the effort to verify something as scientifically useless as a testimonial? Indeed if these patients visited hospitals and doctors, then they would have medical records. If there was something truly amazing, rather than merely rare, it would have been noted by the doctors themselves. A good example is below.

Scientists Report a Rare Case of H.I.V. Remission

That nothing like these have happened tells me that what is being claimed as a miracle is nothing of that sort. Rare remissions happen sufficiently frequently in all diseases, that's natural and perfectly within the parameters of human biology. That is not a miracle. So I have no interest in pursuing any of these testimonials, even if you include a billion of them. If however you have doctors reports that clearly state that the remission violated all expectations of what is possible by a human body. I would like you to link it.


Are spontaneous remissions investigated by scientists? Yes they are, with promising results.
Cancer: The mysterious miracle cases inspiring doctors

It was the late 19th Century, and William Bradley Coley was struggling to save a patient with a large tumour in his neck. Five operations had failed to eradicate the cancer. Then the patient caught a nasty skin infection with a scorching fever. By the time he’d recovered, the tumour was gone. Testing the principle on a small number of other patients, Coley found that deliberately infecting them with bacteria, or treating them with toxins harvested from microbes, destroyed otherwise inoperable tumours.

Could infection be the key to stimulating spontaneous remission more generally? Analyses of the recent evidence certainly make a compelling case for exploring the idea. Rashidi and Fisher’s study found that 90% of the patients recovering from leukaemia had suffered another illness such as pneumonia shortly before the cancer disappeared. Other papers have noted tumours vanishing after diphtheria, gonorrhoea, hepatitis, influenza, malaria, measles, smallpox and syphilis. What doesn’t kill you really can make you stronger in these strange circumstances.

It’s not the microbes, per se, that bring about the healing; rather, the infection is thought to trigger an immune response that is inhospitable to the tumour. The heat of the fever, for instance, may itself render the tumour cells more vulnerable, and trigger cell suicide. Or perhaps it’s significant that when we are fighting bacteria or viruses, our blood is awash with inflammatory molecules that are a call to arms for the body’s macrophages, turning these immune cells into warriors that kill and engulf microbes – and potentially the cancer too. “I think the infection changes the innate immune cells from helping the tumours to killing them,” says Henrik Schmidt at Aarhus University Hospital in Denmark. That, in turn, may also stimulate other parts of the immune system – such as our dendritic cells and T-cells – to learn to recognise the tumorous cells, so that they can attack the cancer again should it return.

Others are considering a far more radical line of attack. For instance, one approach aims to deliberately infect cancer patients with a tropical disease.The technique, developed by American start-up PrimeVax, involves a two-pronged approach. It would begin by taking a sample of the tumour, and collecting dendritic cells from the patient’s blood. These cells help coordinate the immune system’s response to a threat, and by exposing them to the tumour in the lab, it is possible to programme them to recognise the cancerous cells. Meanwhile, the patient is given a dose of dengue fever, a disease normally carried by mosquitoes, before they are injected with the newly trained dendritic cells.


This, not you tube testimonials, is how real scientific advances that help people are made.
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
And now you have, but you're probably going to dismiss them as hoaxes without even bothering to investigate them by contacting those people and talking to them.

I don't say that they're "hoaxes." However, I would question what factors may have been present which could have led to their recovery. I won't simply accept that it was due to "faith healing" and leave it at that.

I've heard plenty of stories where people go to less competent doctors who misdiagnose or who are otherwise unable to find out what's wrong with someone, but when they find a better doctor, they are correctly diagnosed and cured.

The other side of this is how many times faith healing doesn't work. Can anyone explain which factors lead to success vs. failure when it comes to faith healing? Is there some specific prayer or incantation which works better than others? Is there some ritual, bodily gesture, or special kind of candle which is observed in the successful cases versus the unsuccessful cases?

If it's a matter of leaving it up to God to decide who gets cured and who doesn't, then why wouldn't God just cure them anyway, without the intervention of a faith healer? And if He was planning to cure them anyway, why would He make them sick in the first place?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
And now you have, but you're probably going to dismiss them as hoaxes without even bothering to investigate them by contacting those people and talking to them.
The videos themselves are not convincing enough. Nor would be talking with the people themselves. It remains a fact throughout that the maladies we're talking about are ALWAYS invisible to the naked eye. How am I supposed to know what happened to those people's internals before or after "prayer?"

I attended a mass in which there were rumors/whispers between the parishioners that a man's missing finger grew back in a "faith healing" session that occurred the night before. However, later, when the pastor himself addressed that night of "healing", who did he call out, have stand-up and display as proof that healing had occurred? An elderly woman whose back pain had supposedly abated after prayer over her - and when she stood up at that moment during mass her back was bent worse than a shepherd's hook!

People were even to be seen watching video that was taken on their phones of that night of "healing", and do you think any of them had video of this supposed, miraculous finger regrowth? Of course not! How could they have? IT NEVER HAPPENED.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
When you talk about an illness that kills millions of people every year and whose researchers receive billions of dollars every year to not come up with anything better than chemotherapy and radiation, and you start your argument against alternative medicine with the word "perhaps" (as if it was some minor inconvenience, not the 5th cause of death worldwide), you just lost all credibility.
First of all you didn't specify the illness Lucian, and second even then you didn't specify the type of cancer you were talking about. 92% of sufferers survive skin cancer, 1% survive Diffuse Intrinsic Pontine Glioma (a type of brain cancer in children). Where did you pluck your 50% from?

You strike me as someone who finds YouTube clips convincing and admissible as valid evidence, but in the real world that doesn't cut the mustard. Your uniformed posts are in stark contrast to the highly informed posts of @sayak83 , just saying mate; don't butt heads with him, that is a battle you are not going to win! (I don't fancy locking horns with him myself tbh!).

By all means keep posting I say, but please don't be so sniffy about science. Whatever your personal beliefs are, to deny that science has served our species well is a nonsense, I'd have said so when I was a Christian without hesitation. Only an idiot goes to his or her pastor or priest rather than a qualified medic when they are feeling unwell. It would be an idiotic and irresponsible pastor or priest who would disagree with that. Many Christians claim that the advances in science, the advances in medicine, are a gift from god; that is a more defensible (though unconvincing as far as I'm concerned) argument. I think you'd be better going down that road rather than "dissing" science.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Statistically speaking, faith healing is a concept that happens predominantly in Christianity and, although miraculous healing has occurred in other religions too, the numbers seem to be higher among Christians. There are several Christian denominations (The Last Reformation, the Charismatics etc.) who focus on healing people through the power of prayer. You can find thousands of videos related to Christian faith healing on YouTube.

Faith healing - Wikipedia

How do members of other religions explain the numerous healing cases recorded within Christianity? And before you ask me how Christians view the miracles of other religions, let me go ahead and say that there's a lot of debate about it, but in the end we have concluded that we don't really have a clear answer. Is that the same view non-Christians have or do you have other opinions?
Easy. It isn't healing whatsoever, it's complete quackery and arguably dangerous in serious cases.
 
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