How do they know?

[beenherebeforeagain]

Next question again involves migratory waders. They breed in the summer in places like Siberia and Alaska then head south Australia for our summer. I always assumed they bred, raised their chicks then flew back here together but that's not how it works. The chicks are independent at birth and feed themselves. The females head south soon after the chicks hatch, the males hang around for a couple of weeks to keep the chicks warm then also leave. The young birds stay until they're strong enough to make the journey of thousands of klm on their own. I'm wondering if anyone has any theories on how this ability evolved?

Pretty sure it was trial and error...

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Local birds finding a bird feeder is understandable. Huge numbers of birds travelling hundreds of klm to an area they don't normally visit is smart behaviour because there's plenty of food for them but how on earth do they know these conditions happened. Something like if it flooded in the north of Arizona and all the seagulls in California left and went there.

Look...word gets around, okay? Someone discovers a little place with easy pickings, and then they mention it to someone else, and all of the sudden you have to bribe the bouncer to get in...

 

[Brian2]

Look...word gets around, okay? Someone discovers a little place with easy pickings, and then they mention it to someone else, and all of the sudden you have to bribe the bouncer to get in...

And you are a bird so you should know what goes on between you and your mates.

 

[John53]

It could be that there is wiring from millenia ago still there in the birds from times when the weather was different and there was an inland sea. It kicks in when weather conditions revert back to those times.
It would not explain how that initial wiring was set up however.

Also doesn't explain how they know when it happens but I will be adding it to my list. I hadn't even thought about the inland sea.

 

[John53]

Look...word gets around, okay? Someone discovers a little place with easy pickings, and then they mention it to someone else, and all of the sudden you have to bribe the bouncer to get in...

A possibility but how are they sharing the information.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

A possibility but how are they sharing the information.

Telepathy?

Really, I have no idea. I do know that we put our bird feed at varying intervals. If it's been a few days, you go to put the feed out, and there doesn't seem to be any birds around. Then, while filling the feeders, there might be one call of a bird in the tree above you. Then you hear other birds calling. Within a few minutes, a lot of birds of different species are there. It seems to me that they listen to each other, even across species...

But really, don't have any idea how they do it.

 

[rational experiences]

Id say how much of humans conscious awareness would a bird own. Fairly substantial actually.

If I compared a natural self totally destroyed human. Only conscious body survivng by mother's human life and cell. I'd say it very intelligent compared to man life's destroyer.

 

[John53]

Telepathy?

Really, I have no idea. I do know that we put our bird feed at varying intervals. If it's been a few days, you go to put the feed out, and there doesn't seem to be any birds around. Then, while filling the feeders, there might be one call of a bird in the tree above you. Then you hear other birds calling. Within a few minutes, a lot of birds of different species are there. It seems to me that they listen to each other, even across species...

But really, don't have any idea how they do it.

But your talking about a relatively small area, I can't know but I assume most of the birds visiting you feeders are local residents, they're not flying 500klm to an area they never visit under normal conditions.

I should also add as a passionate bird nerd that it is a bad idea to feed wild birds for numerous reasons.

 

[John53]

Id say how much of humans conscious awareness would a bird own. Fairly substantial actually.

If I compared a natural self totally destroyed human. Only conscious body survivng by mother's human life and cell. I'd say it very intelligent compared to man life's destroyer.

That they have awareness that conditions have changed hundreds of kilometres away is apparent. I'm interested in peoples ideas on how they know.

 

[Ponder This]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this but after a long struggle in my own brain I decided it didn't belong in Evolution v Creation.

Anyway... we've had some weird weather in Australia the last couple of years and there has been a lot of rain inland. Many of the shore birds have moved inland, even migratory waders that usually spend the summer along the coast line are hundreds of kilometres inland. How do they know to move to these areas and take advantage of the conditions?

I can't find any articles to post but it's a well know fact amongst bird nerds.

Obviously the solution to your problem requires more information.
My first thought that I would like you to rule out is that the birds can simply see the rain and fly towards it.

Migratory birds fly at thousands of feet in the air, which means they see the horizon at one or two hundred kilometers. And thunderstorms can even rise to a height of 10 to 12 miles in the atmosphere. Realistically, the limiting factor is light diffraction. A human can identify a storm cloud at a distance of 100 miles.​

What prevents a migratory bird, following the air currents and land masses from Siberia and Alaska down towards Australia from visually identifying and flying towards rain a few hundred kilometers inland? How do you immediately rule that out as an option?

 

[Heyo]

Pretty sure it was trial and error...

I agree. While migratory birds are able to find the exact spot they have been last year, it doesn't make evolutionary sense for all of them going that way. Only if some of them head new grounds can they multiply and (as a species) react to changing environments.
I have seen "invasive" species almost every year. They come here to try the environment and next year they are gone - or they become endemic.

 

[John53]

Obviously the solution to your problem requires more information.

It's not so much a problem, just something that interests me and I try to write an article each month for the bird club newsletter. Hopefully if the topic interests me it will interest others, unfortunately I can find very little on the subject so I need a few ideas to hopefully expand upon in the article.

My first thought that I would like you to rule out is that the birds can simply see the rain and fly towards it.

Migratory birds fly at thousands of feet in the air, which means they see the horizon at one or two hundred kilometers. And thunderstorms can even rise to a height of 10 to 12 miles in the atmosphere. Realistically, the limiting factor is light diffraction. A human can identify a storm cloud at a distance of 100 miles.​

What prevents a migratory bird, following the air currents and land masses from Siberia and Alaska down towards Australia from visually identifying and flying towards rain a few hundred kilometers inland? How do you immediately rule that out as an option?

I haven't ruled anything out but it seems unlikely to me that they have seen or heard storms. The current conditions inland have been caused by 18 months or so of unusually high rainfall.

Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Local birds finding a bird feeder is understandable. Huge numbers of birds travelling hundreds of klm to an area they don't normally visit is smart behaviour because there's plenty of food for them but how on earth do they know these conditions happened. Something like if it flooded in the north of Arizona and all the seagulls in California left and went there.

There must be some meteorological phenomena they can sense, which guides them there? Barometric pressure, changes to the prevailing wind patterns, something like that?

 

[PureX]

Traits and behaviors evolve because they work. And by "they work", I mean they are the most likely traits and behaviors to get passed on to following generations because they are the traits and behaviors that enabled them to survive, and to mate.

 

[ChristineM]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this but after a long struggle in my own brain I decided it didn't belong in Evolution v Creation.

Anyway... we've had some weird weather in Australia the last couple of years and there has been a lot of rain inland. Many of the shore birds have moved inland, even migratory waders that usually spend the summer along the coast line are hundreds of kilometres inland. How do they know to move to these areas and take advantage of the conditions?

I can't find any articles to post but it's a well know fact amongst bird nerds.

My guess is they are following the food, flying insects attracted to water will be moving to wetlands on mass.

 

[Kenny]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this but after a long struggle in my own brain I decided it didn't belong in Evolution v Creation.

Anyway... we've had some weird weather in Australia the last couple of years and there has been a lot of rain inland. Many of the shore birds have moved inland, even migratory waders that usually spend the summer along the coast line are hundreds of kilometres inland. How do they know to move to these areas and take advantage of the conditions?

I can't find any articles to post but it's a well know fact amongst bird nerds.

IMV, God put it in the DNA.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

It's not so much a problem, just something that interests me and I try to write an article each month for the bird club newsletter. Hopefully if the topic interests me it will interest others, unfortunately I can find very little on the subject so I need a few ideas to hopefully expand upon in the article.



I haven't ruled anything out but it seems unlikely to me that they have seen or heard storms. The current conditions inland have been caused by 18 months or so of unusually high rainfall.

Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated.

they might notice the changes as they fly over the inland on their way to the south coast.

 

[John53]

IMV, God put it in the DNA.

Put in their DNA something that alerts them there has been high rainfall inland turning normally dry land into swamp during the summer of 22/23?

 

[John53]

There must be some meteorological phenomena they can sense, which guides them there? Barometric pressure, changes to the prevailing wind patterns, something like that?

That seems likely.

 

[John53]

My guess is they are following the food, flying insects attracted to water will be moving to wetlands on mass.

I shall add it to my list.