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How do we get manufacturing back?

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
How do we encourage manufacturing to stay within a country with higher standards of living and greater control over the quality of the product?

The US is bleeding manufacturing jobs. I am assuming the same is true of most other western European countries. The jobs are going to places where the wages are much lower, benefits are non-existent, the governments could care less about the environmental impact, and have less stringent requirements for the ultimate quality of the product.

How can we compete against that?

1) Reduce wages. This really isn't a viable option. Sure, some wages and benefits were ridiculously high (like in the auto industry) and needed to be brought down, but in general, wages have not risen with the cost of living for the middle class. To reduce them even further is not sustainable unless, somehow, the cost of living also is reduced. To reduce them to the level of the countries these jobs are going to is downright impossible.

2) Reduce regulations. Yes, some red tape needs to be cut. Bureaucrat-ese needs to be abolished, and we need to streamline. But, we do have a responsibility for taking care of the earth we inhabit. I find the idea of leaving a parched, scorched, impoverished Earth for our grandkids much more abominable than leaving them a government deficit. (But for some reason, it's never really framed that way...) We also have a responsibility to make sure that our peanut butter doesn't have salmonella in it, and that the toys and drugs and everything else we produce is safe for the consumer. So every regulation that might hurt the bottom line can't go.

3) Tariffs. These appeal to me. Charge more for imports, or somehow economically punish American companies which move their factories overseas. But, the merest whiff of them causes a global backlash. How can we become more protectionist (darn tootin! I want to protect American jobs!), without blowing up the global economy?

Those are the main ideas I've heard of, but I want to hear more. Also, I know this is from a heavily American perspective, but I want to know what people in other countries think, whether they too are having troubles keeping their manufacturing jobs, or whether they are the ones gaining all these jobs. How would you respond to a country becoming more protectionist, etc?
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Reduce world population, or watch standards of living, economic opportunities, environmental standards for the vast majority of people in the "developed" world* decline until "our' standard of living for working people, accounting for transportation costs, reaches equilibrium with the rest of the overpopulated world.





(including people who rent other people's houses and apartments and hence the owners of those houses and apartments)
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;2671693 said:
(including people who rent other people's houses and apartments and hence the owners of those houses and apartments)

I love where your getting at. Could you elaborate?
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
History lesson. Nixon opened the far East for business. They sold their products cheaper then America would make them. Tariffs were then put on American products going there but not coming here. Business then during the 80's got the Far East countries to build plants here and sell their cars. Honda 1981 in Ohio. Then business told us Unions were no good and the South believed them and built more auto plants and barring Unions. Then the southern Company Wal-Mart the anti Union company made deals with Far East countries to build plants there and import their products cheaper then America could make here, (Rubbermaid Wooster, Ohio).

We cant sell over there other then military products because our government is subsidized by America citizens like foreign companies subsidise their companies here.

Tariffs can not be put on foreign products made here or shipped here because of trade laws negatiated decades ago to help the multi-national companies.

When America's economy drops the multi-nationals will move to the next countries to build and sell their products. They have the "Cash Stashed" to do it.

American politicians sold out to Big Business by trade agreements like NAFTA and others.

They not only have broke the Unions they have broken the American work force. Most people under 30 dont even know what manufacturing jobs are.

Sorry that's how I see it.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
I love where your getting at. Could you elaborate?
Sustainable prosperity trickles up, not down. When you undermine the working population for short-term gain, the effects of that trickle up as well, hitting hardest those entrepreneurs that provide products and services to people who work for a living. So let's say a proud libertarian makes his money in the rental market. The typical renter works for a living. When his wages decline he can't pay as much rent. When all the other workers' wages decline, eventually our intrepid landlord will see a commensurate decline in his or her income. So will people like doctors, lawyers, restauranteurs and eventually even the hedge fund managers, CEOs, and other Randroids who are too greedy or stupid (or both) to understand that the cheese does not stand alone.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;2671721 said:
When all the other workers' wages decline, eventually our intrepid landlord will see a commensurate decline in his or her income.

Thank you for that post.

However, my landlord just raised my rent recently. :eek:
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Thank you for that post.

However, my landlord just raised my rent recently. :eek:
Will that affect your decision to renew your lease? The more strain it puts on your budget, the more likely you'll look for someone who is willing to rent for less. Indeed, you'll have to eventually.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;2671727 said:
Will that affect your decision to renew your lease? The more strain it puts on your budget, the more likely you'll look for someone who is willing to rent for less. Indeed, you'll have to eventually.

I've decided to renew, but like you said," ... you'll have to eventually."
 

GabrielWithoutWings

Well-Known Member
Say good-bye to manufacturing. There's no reason, from a business stand-point, to bother staying in this country. Why pay an American 15/hour when you can pay someone in Mexico or China 1/day?

America will be a numbers-moving country until the rug gets pulled out from under everyone. People will be juggling interest rates and hedge funds and stocks and bonds without having anything real forming the foundation for those numbers, which is making something that other people want to buy.

After the rug gets pulled? Who the heck knows? Might be a 10-year depression. Might be a 2nd Civil War. Might be every state for itself.

Manufacturing is dead. Say good-bye to that industry.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
doppelgänger;2671693 said:
Reduce world population,
This is something I want to see happen for multiple reasons, but I'm not sure how precisely this would aid in getting manufacturing jobs back to America. It would provide more jobs for people over all, but that would just allow the unemployed in countries with lower wages / standards to snap up those now available slots. (There would also be less demand, further reducing the need for more jobs, so it has a negative effect-- one which I wouldn't mind seeing-- as well.)
dopp said:
or watch standards of living, economic opportunities, environmental standards for the vast majority of people in the "developed" world* decline until "our' standard of living for working people, accounting for transportation costs, reaches equilibrium with the rest of the overpopulated world.
(including people who rent other people's houses and apartments and hence the owners of those houses and apartments)
I'm sorry, I've read this a couple times, but I'm having trouble understanding it. Are you saying we need our standards to decline, and the standards of other countries to go up so that they meet somewhere in the middle, so that there isn't a difference for factory owners in where they put their factories?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
History lesson. Nixon opened the far East for business. They sold their products cheaper then America would make them. Tariffs were then put on American products going there but not coming here. Business then during the 80's got the Far East countries to build plants here and sell their cars. Honda 1981 in Ohio. Then business told us Unions were no good and the South believed them and built more auto plants and barring Unions. Then the southern Company Wal-Mart the anti Union company made deals with Far East countries to build plants there and import their products cheaper then America could make here, (Rubbermaid Wooster, Ohio).

We cant sell over there other then military products because our government is subsidized by America citizens like foreign companies subsidise their companies here.

Tariffs can not be put on foreign products made here or shipped here because of trade laws negatiated decades ago to help the multi-national companies.

When America's economy drops the multi-nationals will move to the next countries to build and sell their products. They have the "Cash Stashed" to do it.

American politicians sold out to Big Business by trade agreements like NAFTA and others.

They not only have broke the Unions they have broken the American work force. Most people under 30 dont even know what manufacturing jobs are.

Sorry that's how I see it.
Under current trade agreements, perhaps, but those aren't set in stone. We can renegotiate them, or fail to renew them, when the time comes up.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
As long as you don't pick on the middle class.....yeah right!

One percent of this nation's population, controls thirty three percent of the nation's wealth.
That's called hoarding.

The same statistic came around in 1929.

Got a cure?...bet you don't.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Say good-bye to manufacturing. There's no reason, from a business stand-point, to bother staying in this country. Why pay an American 15/hour when you can pay someone in Mexico or China 1/day?
That depends on what you're manufacturing and all the other economic factors at play.

I mean, think about it: what advantages are there in each system? Even with cheap labour costs, outsourcing manufacturing to China only really makes sense for large-volume, mass-produced goods, and only when shipping costs are very low relative to labour costs.

A domestic manufacturer has (or can have) lots of competitive advantages over a foreign manufacturer:

- reduced shipping time, meaning quicker response to customer demands.
- lower shipping costs due to decreased distance.
- a more highly skilled, better educated, and more flexible labour force.

Now... for that last point, I should probably explain: I'm not saying that China, Mexico or anywhere else doesn't have highly skilled people or good education -it might or might not depending on the country, but that's not the point. The cheap labour that enables these offshore manufacturers to be competitive relies on low wages. This means that unless these highly skilled workers are artificially blocking people from leaving, then the manufacturers are necessarily using unskilled workers, because the highly skilled workers are also highly mobile: they can leave the country to seek better opportunities at higher pay, so even within China or Mexico, there are pressures to keep these workers' salaries high, meaning that they don't really contribute to the country's competitive advantage in labour cost.

Hey - a light bulb just went off in my head: maybe this points to a way to attack that competitive advantage: have the US (or any country worried about losing manufacturing jobs) open up immigration more widely. Thanks to cross-elasticity of demand, if a Chinese worker, for instance, knows that he could move to the US and make $10 or $15 an hour, this will increase pressure on Chinese firms to increase wages just to retain their staff... even if the worker doesn't actually move to the US.

OTOH, a protectionist mindset (i.e. "we can't let in any foreign workers because we need to keep the jobs we have for Americans!") would have the opposite effect: by taking away a higher-paid option from those foreign workers, we make it easier for their employers to keep paying them a dollar or two a day.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Say good-bye to manufacturing. There's no reason, from a business stand-point, to bother staying in this country. Why pay an American 15/hour when you can pay someone in Mexico or China 1/day?
Well, that's precisely the problem, isn't it? I am asking what are possible solutions to that problem? You can make it less desirable for companies to manufacture their goods with the 1/day labor force.

I have recently heard that increasing oil costs are starting to make it less economically effective to ship all of those cheap plastic goods from China, so some companies are actually considering moving back home. Plus 1 for oil dependency. :p
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Hey - a light bulb just went off in my head: maybe this points to a way to attack that competitive advantage: have the US (or any country worried about losing manufacturing jobs) open up immigration more widely. Thanks to cross-elasticity of demand, if a Chinese worker, for instance, knows that he could move to the US and make $10 or $15 an hour, this will increase pressure on Chinese firms to increase wages just to retain their staff... even if the worker doesn't actually move to the US.
Would a $10-15/hr job lure someone from their home country and family, when they already have a job that provides a living wage in their own country? $10 an hour doesn't go all that far in America.

I would suspect that we would only receive those who are unable to find work in their own country... those who have no job, and therefore, are no economic loss to their countries or the factories inside them.

(Plus, there is the added cost of adding lots of new people to the country. How many would be required for there to be shift in wage policy in China? Too many for my selfish desires. I like big spaces and no people.)
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Would a $10-15/hr job lure someone from their home country and family, when they already have a job that provides a living wage in their own country? $10 an hour doesn't go all that far in America.
Yes especially when ten of them cram in together in a two bedroom house.It also allows them to work for less money making it difficult for the average american to compete and support his family.That ten dollars an hour is a lot of money to send back home when they were only making ten dollars a day back home if that.
 
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