How do we know a Prophet is a Prophet and sent by God?

[Bathos Logos]

So you have already made up your premise that "others" simply have to be irrational, and that is not based on any research.

Again - based on the state of the evidence, I claim that it is partiality and potentially irrational conviction that leads one to select one possible hypothesis over another. You keep trying to reframe what I am saying, but it won't work. I will continually correct you. To no end. You may as well just block me now if it is going to be a problem for you.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Good God. Do you know how many prophet claimants are walking around today? Just yesterday I was speaking to a guy who claims his father who passed away a few years ago was the prophet John, wrote a book with 130 plus chapters which supposedly was delivered by the angel Gabriel, and the son's name is Jesus.

There are many prophets today. there are Gods today. Many. Around the world. Western, eastern, developed, underdeveloped, all kinds of countries and societies.

And if you actually study this a tad, the prophet claimants "those days" were much more credible and made sense than the one's today.

And this is relevant to what? Have you ever tried to put yourself back into the past - as to what people tended to believe then and why? I was not talking about those who initiated the beliefs but about those responsive to such.

 

[Fool]

This is for me a fascinating topic because I am a strong believer in the Prophets although I never met Them yet somehow within myself, I know they are true and sent by God.

The question is - how do we know a Prophet is from God? We have such scriptures as the Bible, the Quran which I accept and also stories about the Lives of Great Educators like Buddha, Christ, Moses, Muhammad, Krishna and Baha’u’llah.

But with no one yet able to describe God how do billions of people believe in Them?

i would think that would be fairly easy.


joel 2:28-29 and acts 2:17-18


what is god's spirit? love.
what is god's will? love

who is the lord of love? isn't anyone who does what is loving? compassionate?

 

[firedragon]

And this is relevant to what? Have you ever tried to put yourself back into the past - as to what people tended to believe then and why? I was not talking about those who initiated the beliefs but about those responsive to such.

I dont think you understood what I said. Maybe you dont intend to. So, its a no go.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

Again - based on the state of the evidence

What evidence? Elaborate this so called "evidence".

 

[Mock Turtle]

I dont think you understood what I said. Maybe you dont intend to. So, its a no go.

Cheers.

Perhaps you didn't get my post either. Try harder - and not to be so dismissive. Nasty trait don't ya know?

 

[firedragon]

Perhaps you didn't get my post either. Try harder - and not to be so dismissive. Nasty trait don't ya know?

Ah. No you didnt get what I said.

Please. One more trial. Might help. Lets do this rhetorical exchange. Go ahead.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Ah. No you didnt get what I said.

Please. One more trial. Might help. Lets do this rhetorical exchange. Go ahead.

Well as to prophets, how would we know how many were around then, and as to which just disappeared into history? People are still gullible these days because we are all still human, but at least most do have access to reasonably good information, reliable if they so choose, when this could hardly be said about the past. And the spread of information of course was much slower then. That is my gripe with the past and as to unreliable information more likely being believed. Perhaps I'm wrong on this and we (some) are just as gullible as we ever were.

 

[Koldo]

Good God. Do you know how many prophet claimants are walking around today? Just yesterday I was speaking to a guy who claims his father who passed away a few years ago was the prophet John, wrote a book with 130 plus chapters which supposedly was delivered by the angel Gabriel, and the son's name is Jesus.

There are many prophets today. there are Gods today. Many. Around the world. Western, eastern, developed, underdeveloped, all kinds of countries and societies.

And if you actually study this a tad, the prophet claimants "those days" were much more credible and made sense than the one's today.

What do you even mean by 'credible' and 'made sense'?
Stuff like 'the moon is cleft asunder', but apparently no one noticed and it is necessary to interpret it as an analogy or as a future event to save face?
Or do you mean the insane rules like 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death'?

 

[firedragon]

Well as to prophets, how would we know how many were around then, and as to which just disappeared into history? People are still gullible these days because we are all still human, but at least most do have access to reasonably good information, reliable if they so choose, when this could hardly be said about the past. And the spread of information of course was much slower then. That is my gripe with the past and as to unreliable information more likely being believed. Perhaps I'm wrong on this and we are just as gullible as we ever were.

Happening today.

 

[Koldo]

But with no one yet able to describe God how do billions of people believe in Them?

Wishful thinking and tradition.

 

[firedragon]

What do you even mean by 'credible' and 'made sense'?
Stuff like 'the moon is cleft asunder', but apparently no one noticed and it is necessary to interpret it as an analogy or as a future event to save face?
Or do you mean the insane rules like 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death'?

Hmm.

1. Could you please give some interpretations on the moon being cleft asunder as you quoted?
2. Please quote the Qur'an where it says anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death?

Thanks.

 

[Koldo]

Hmm.

1. Could you please give some interpretations on the moon being cleft asunder as you quoted?

Sure. Wiki is your friend for quick references:

"Early traditions and stories explain this verse as a miracle performed by Muhammad, following requests of some members of the Quraysh.[8][9] Most early and medieval Muslim commentators accepted the authenticity of those traditions, which allude to the Moon-splitting as a historical event.[10] The following verse 54:2, "But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, 'This is (but) transient magic'" is taken in the support of this view.[9] The post-classical commentator ibn Kathir provides a list of the early traditions mentioning the incident: A tradition transmitted on the authority of Anas ibn Malik states that Muhammad split the Moon after the pagan Meccans asked for a miracle. Another tradition from Malik transmitted through other chains of narrations, mentions that Jabal al-Nour was visible between the two parts of the Moon (Mount Nur is located in Hijaz. Muslims believe that Muhammad received his first revelations from God in a cave on this mountain, the Cave of Hira'). A tradition narrated on the authority of Jubayr ibn Muṭʽim with a single chain of transmission says that the two parts of the Moon stood on two mountains. This tradition further states that the Meccan responded by saying "Muhammad has taken us by his magic... If he was able to take us by magic, he will not be able to do so with all people." Traditions transmitted on the authority of ibn Abbas briefly mention the incident and do not provide much details.[2] Traditions transmitted on the authority of Abdullah ibn Masud describe the incident as follows: "We were along with God's Messenger at Mina, that Moon was split up into two. One of its parts was behind the mountain and the other one was on this side of the mountain. God's Messenger said to us: Bear witness to this."039:6725[2][11]

The narrative was used by some later Muslims to convince others of the prophethood of Muhammad. Annemarie Schimmel for example quotes the following from Muslim scholar Qadi Ayyad, who worked in the 12th century:

It has not been said of any people on the earth that the Moon was observed that night such that it could be stated that it was not split. Even if this had been reported from many different places, so that one would have to exclude the possibility that all agreed upon a lie, yet, we would not accept this as proof to the contrary, for the Moon is not seen in the same way by different people... An eclipse is visible in one country but not in the other one; in one place it is total, in the other one only partial.[6]

Other perspectives
The Muslim scholar Yusuf Ali provides three different interpretations of the verse. He holds that perhaps all three are applicable to the verse: Moon once appeared cleft asunder at the time of Muhammad in order to convince the unbelievers. It will split again when the day of judgment approaches (here the prophetic past tense is taken to indicate the future). Yusuf Ali connects this incident with the disruption of the solar system mentioned in 75:8–9. Lastly, he says that the verses can be metaphorical, meaning that the matter has become clear as the Moon.[12]

Some dissenting commentators who do not accept the miracle narration believe that the verse only refers to the splitting of the Moon at the day of judgment.[9][13] Likewise, M. A. S. Abdel Haleem writes:

The Arabic uses the past tense, as if that Day were already here, to help the reader/listener imagine how it will be. Some traditional commentators hold the view that this describes an actual event at the time of the Prophet, but it clearly refers to the end of the world.[14]

Western historians such as A. J. Wensinck and Denis Gril, reject the historicity of the miracle arguing that the Qur'an itself denies miracles, in their traditional sense, in connection with Muhammad.[7][15]"

Splitting of the Moon - Wikipedia

2. Please quote the Qur'an where it says anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death?

Thanks.

I was quoting the Leviticus 20:9

“’Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head."

 

[paradox]

The question is - how do we know a Prophet is from God?

According to the bible, there are 2 definitions of a prophet:
In OT a prophet to acknowledge he was sent by or chosen by God, he must have performed at least one miracle to confirm he is sent by God.
In NT to be a prophet one must receive a gift from the holly ghost, see 1 Corinthians 12:6-11
Apostle Paul suggests that prophecy, that is divination, is not own to gifted prophets, anyone may be a "prophet" but in good faith so that it is evident, he even encourages to be a prophet.

For today's times in order for a prophet who received the gift to be recognized, the first requirement is that such person is able to convert people rather that making his words becoming true.

There is a kind of so called. "apocalyptics", but these are far from being prophets because their words are easily beaten down with revelation.

 

[Bathos Logos]

What evidence? Elaborate this so called "evidence".

Words. i.e. scripture (passages from the Bible, or Quran, or Greek Mythology for that matter), argumentation for the supposed existence of God ("look at the trees", "if you find a watch in the wilderness", "how could so many people be wrong?", "you might face hell if you don't, so...", "the messengers died for this", "... but it's so poetic!"), the evidence presented in debates between the "best" believer's have to offer and the "best" nonbeliever's have to offer to question or refute various aspects of arguments/evidence. Again... all words, all the time. That's it. There is nothing more. It is all just words.

I will ask you one more time, and if you still don't answer, then there is likely no need to continue with this discussion because I will have judged you too incapable or too fearful to actually answer the question put to you (and remember, I have answered - or tried to answer, even if you won't accept it - all of your questions so far. You have pointedly ignored this one many multiple times already): Do you have evidence for the idea that messengers are assigned and given instruction by God that amounts to more than words?

 

[Trailblazer]

The question is - how do we know a Prophet is from God?

I do not think we can know it as a fact since it cannot ever be proven that anyone was sent by God.

fact
something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

However, I think we can know in our heart and mind even though we cannot prove it to anyone else.

 

[idea]

.... I think we can know in our heart and mind even though we cannot prove it to anyone else.

... even though what we "know" in our heart is vastly different from what others "know" in their hearts.

like this -

"a distinct feeling of warmth and expansion"
Elevation (emotion) - Wikipedia

You know how birds fly together, herds of deer, or packs of wolves - how the groups somehow coordinate with one another? swarms of bees, ant piles - some classify the colony as the living entity and the individual ants more like cells of the colony ....

people are herd animals... we join together, and communicate in ways beyond words and facial expressions. It's not God - it's herd instincts.

Most herds have leaders, the queen bee, the alpha - humans have queens and alphas too.

 

[QuestioningMind]

This is for me a fascinating topic because I am a strong believer in the Prophets although I never met Them yet somehow within myself, I know they are true and sent by God.

The question is - how do we know a Prophet is from God? We have such scriptures as the Bible, the Quran which I accept and also stories about the Lives of Great Educators like Buddha, Christ, Moses, Muhammad, Krishna and Baha’u’llah.

But with no one yet able to describe God how do billions of people believe in Them?

Personally I don't understand how anyone accepts that someone is a messenger from any god without verifiable evidence. I suppose that it's simply more important for them to pretend like they have answers than to pursue the actual truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

... even though what we "know" in our heart is vastly different from what others "know" in their hearts.

What we know in our hearts will always be different from what others know in their hearts because people think and process information differently.

What we know will not be vastly different from what others know if they came to the same conclusions about the Prophet, although they came to their conclusions through their own reasoning processes which are no doubt different from ours.

 

[Trailblazer]

Personally I don't understand how anyone accepts that someone is a messenger from any god without verifiable evidence. I suppose that it's simply more important for them to pretend like they have answers than to pursue the actual truth.

Try to think about how we could ever 'verify' that a Messenger was sent by God, given we can never verify that God exists. I cannot see how that would ever be possible.