How do we know the Bible was not written by demons?

[danieldemol]

View attachment 39761

I just remembered that there were times Jesus was accused by the Pharisees that Jesus is performing miracles like driving out demons because he is in alliance or in cahoots with the prince of demons - which is why demons obey Jesus Christ.

These instances are recorded in Matthew 9:34; Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15

However Jesus Christ answered them perfectly.

Matthew 12:22-28 New International Version (NIV)
Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

This argument was thoroughly debunked in post #17

 

[Spirit of Light]

So you are saying that Buddha did not defy Mara?


What about Krishna and His defeat of demon Narakasura?

Mara in buddhism is not the same as in devil in chritianity.
What Buddha was "fighting" was his inner demons of attachments to the human world. The attachments to greed, anger, delusion. And so on. He won over his own attachments and the temptation (mara) was no longer within him. It should be noted that this happens before his full enlightenment so he was an arahant at the moment.
This is how i understood the suttas when i was a buddhist.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ok, so the Quran says Satan is a deceiver, but JWs seem to think all other religions are demon inspired, do you see the hypocrisy?

Interesting, I consider this thread and your rhetorical question an exercise in deep questioning from different perspectives. It did evoke a lot of response.

At one time in my spiritual search in tendency toward a primal approach and a fan of Gilgamesh where Enkidu was my hero of the primal human, and Gilgamesh represented the corruption of the civilized world and organized religions. I never believed in Satan, and still do not, but at that stage in my spiritual journey civilization was evil including the organized religions aggressive warlike tribal scriptures.

 

[Super Universe]

How do we know the Bible was not written by demons?

I know I know, because they don’t exist.

But suppose if you believed in demons and believed that demons can impersonate the dead.

Demons could have stolen Lazuras body and impersonated him, and the same for Jesus, or Jesus Himself could even be a demon in league with other demons.

When the Apostles asked Jesus, "How can we tell whether someone is a false prophet or not."

Jesus said, "By their fruit."

Satan and demons cannot win by working against themselves.

 

[MJFlores]

As for your other points about why would Satan's Kingdom be divided against itself:

If one believes that only one religion is right and the rest are governed by Satan, then we know from history that those different religions have fought each other, so would that qualify as Satn's Kingdom fighting against itself? Those wars also haven't lead to the destruction of religions for the most part, and example would be the fighting between Hinduism and Islam.

Also, as mentioned earlier, letting his Kingdom fight against itself, or giving the illusion of two sides fighting can certainly benefit him. For all we know, Jesus didn't actually exorcise demons, but said a few words and the demons acted as if they were being exorcised, so that Satan could lay Jesus as the foundations of Christianity which would serve his purposes.

Debunking post #17

This argument was thoroughly debunked in post #17

For all we know, Jesus didn't actually exorcise demons, but said a few words and the demons acted as if they were being exorcised, so that Satan could lay Jesus as the foundations of Christianity which would serve his purposes.

When you add "For all..." it becomes an assumption, like a guess.
If you remove "Fall all..." then it becomes an assertion
But even that falls very short of debunking or disproving
There must be a strong evidence, or an evidence beyond reasonable doubt

If the Bible was crafted and composed in the name of evil
Then Quran which bases most of its writings becomes polluted
since Jesus Christ which was exclusively described in the Bible
is also mentioned in the Quran for 25 times
Which leads me to believe that Baha'i Faith, which uses the Quran for reference
and my Faith just became dirty?

But then again - Jesus is right when he said:

Matthew 15:10-11 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Jesus called the people to him. He said, “Listen and understand what I am saying. It is not what people put in their mouth that makes them wrong. It is what comes out of their mouth that makes them wrong.”

 

[shunyadragon]

When the Apostles asked Jesus, "How can we tell whether someone is a false prophet or not."

Jesus said, "By their fruit."

Satan and demons cannot win by working against themselves.

. . . but Satan can deceive and seduce.

 

[Super Universe]

. . . but Satan can deceive and seduce.

If a demon gave $1 million in gold to a charity, should it be rejected?

Bad beings do good things sometimes and good beings do bad things sometimes. No being is all bad and no being is all good.

 

[shunyadragon]

If a demon gave $1 million in gold to a charity, should it be rejected?

You would not know it was a demon.

Bad beings do good things sometimes and good beings do bad things sometimes. No being is all bad and no being is all good.

That is why you cannot tell the demon from the angel. They are both angels.

 

[Super Universe]

You would not know it was a demon.



That is why you cannot tell the demon from the angel. They are both angels.

The modern Christian idea that a demon is a bad angel who works for Satan and works against God and works do to evil is not correct. Some angels chose to side with Lucifer in the rebellion but they are not evil and they are certainly not against God.

There are many levels between the earth and heaven, angels are formed in the levels. So, no angel knows God because most of them have never been to heaven. Some have been to heaven but only very few and the angels in the levels only have to go on what others have told them about God and heaven. The angels who rebelled did so against Jesus, not God.

All beings in the universe are classified as being in service to self (bad) or in service to others (good) with most being in between. No being is formed all evil (although some are extremely violent and very difficult to deal with and better off just being put down, in my opinion) and no being is formed all good. So, you can't judge by looking at a being, you have to see their actions, or, the fruit they produce.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Debunking post #17



For all we know, Jesus didn't actually exorcise demons, but said a few words and the demons acted as if they were being exorcised, so that Satan could lay Jesus as the foundations of Christianity which would serve his purposes.

When you add "For all..." it becomes an assumption, like a guess.
If you remove "Fall all..." then it becomes an assertion
But even that falls very short of debunking or disproving
There must be a strong evidence, or an evidence beyond reasonable doubt

If the Bible was crafted and composed in the name of evil
Then Quran which bases most of its writings becomes polluted
since Jesus Christ which was exclusively described in the Bible
is also mentioned in the Quran for 25 times
Which leads me to believe that Baha'i Faith, which uses the Quran for reference
and my Faith just became dirty?

View attachment 39771

But then again - Jesus is right when he said:

Matthew 15:10-11 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Jesus called the people to him. He said, “Listen and understand what I am saying. It is not what people put in their mouth that makes them wrong. It is what comes out of their mouth that makes them wrong.”

The part of post 17 was really about Jesus flawed reasoning in saying that a kingdom cannot be divided. What he says makes sense if the Kingdom literally is at civil war but he could also have participated in a false flag attacks, so he is leaving out other valid possibilities.

Believers base their faith in the Bible on assumptions without solid evidence and make assertions all the time. They assert that there is a specific God, that he authored specific books, that this book is telling the truth, that the claims it makes is true, etc. There is no strong evidence for any of this, therefore, both you and I would be making assumptions. If witnesses did see Jesus perform what they would consider miracles, what they should assert is that they do not know how he did it. Nobody would know whether it was from God or from Satan or from another source altogether.

The bottom line is that the Bible makes many claims, and some of its claims have been proven true, while there isn't evidence for the rest, and to say that what it claims is true without strong evidence is making a big leap.

If Jesus did things spurred on by the devil, then the faith of all those who believe in him would indeed be dirtied. Although since many Christians believe Jesus is God while others don't, then some groups faith is already contaminated and since the character of Jesus in the Quran is different from the bibles portrayal of him, then either the Bible or the Quran is contaminated. Muslims and the Baha'i reject that Jesus died for the sins of mankind therefore they reject the biblical view of Jesus, saying that the Bible we have today cannot be trusted because it is corrupt. At best, mosts of these faiths are "dirty" or at worst, all of them are wrong.

 

[danieldemol]

Satan and demons cannot win by working against themselves.

Looks like you didn’t read post #17

 

[Samael_Khan]

Looks like you didn’t read post #17

What is interesting is that people can't see the logic of post 17, as the very idea of it has been explored numerous times in fiction and in history itself. 1984 is a good example in fiction.

Even according to the Bible, Satan deceives others by becoming an angel of light, performing signs and wonders and has set up nations that overthrow each other (if the believer believes that Satan controls the world). Another theory that could be interesting is that Satan is actually working for God himself, and that he got Satan to cause the fall of man to achieve the below psychological effect.

An overview of False Flag attacks with an excerpt:

False flag - Wikipedia

Psychology
False flag attacking is a kind of psychological warfare. The motivations and effects have been analyzed within the framework of regality theory, which is a branch of evolutionary psychology. People will develop authoritarian, intolerant, and xenophobic attitudes when they perceive that their social group is under attack, according to this theory. This is called a regal psychological reaction. An attack that is successfully blamed on outsiders will lead to such a regal reaction. The result is that people will be more likely to support their own government and military. A collection of historical examples of the fabrication of collective danger by false flag attacks and other kinds of deception has identified the following motives:[48]

• To create psychological support for a planned war
• To pave the way for a transition to a less democratic form of government
• To consolidate a government when its power is dwindling
• To defame an enemy by blaming an attack on them

The effect may be the opposite if the deception is disclosed and the attack is blamed on an internal elite rather than on the alleged outgroup.

 

[MJFlores]

Believers base their faith in the Bible on assumptions without solid evidence and make assertions all the time.

Are you referring to true believers or fanatics?
Because real believers believe because they have solid evidence and they have this holy fear inside of them.
Real believers believe because they read the assertions in the Bible while they see these in the real life.
Fanatics on the other hand falsely believe that their own worship is acceptable and pleasing to God
We see the fanatics and what they do fortifies our faith in the Bible
Examples?

The Bible contains several examples of God’s words that were declared long ago but were appointed to take place in the time when the end is near. One of these is that written in Revelation chapter 6:12-13:

“I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.” (Revelation 6:12-13 NKJV)

In this verse, the Bible is telling about a “great earthquake.” Although there were many “great earthquakes” happened in the past, but the Bible explicitly tells us that this “great earthquake” is followed by the “sun became black as sackcloth of hair,” the “moon became like blood,” and the “stars of heaven fell to the earth.” These distinguished the “great earthquake” of Revelation 6:12-13 from other earthquakes occurred in the past.

The fulfillment of this “great earthquake” is the earthquake of 1755 in Lisbon, Portugal. The Lisbon earthquake is one of the strongest earthquakes recorded, felt in a radius of about forty times larger that the United Kingdom and claimed 6,000 lives (The Physical Earth, pp. 28-29).

We are certain that the Lisbon earthquake of 1755 is the fulfillment of the “great earthquake” mentioned in Revelation 6:12-13, because this is the earthquake followed by the “sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the moon became like blood” which the fulfillment is what history called as the “Black Friday” of May 19, 1780 in New England (The New International Encyclopedia, volume VI, p. 502).

Take note that according to the Book of Revelation the “great earthquake” was followed by “sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the “moon became like blood” which followed by “stars of heaven fell to the earth.”

The fulfillment of the “stars of heaven fell to the earth” that followed the “sun became black as sackcloth of hair” and the “moon became like blood” is the “meteor shower” of 1833. In the night of November 12, 1833, hundreds of meteorites (also called “falling stars”) seen in the whole eastern part of the United States (N.E.S., p. 1217).

The bottom line is that the Bible makes many claims, and some of its claims have been proven true, while there isn't evidence for the rest, and to say that what it claims is true without strong evidence is making a big leap.

So what is the rest? Like the Bible describes what the world will be like in the future as written by Prophet Daniel?

Daniel 12:4 New International Version (NIV)
But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

Although since many Christians believe Jesus is God while others don't, then some groups faith is already contaminated and since the character of Jesus in the Quran is different from the bibles portrayal of him, then either the Bible or the Quran is contaminated.

Apostasy is one of the realities prophesied in the Bible
And it came true after the death of the apostles and the emergence of a new church not founded by Christ.
With regards to the Quran, he is also prophesied [in general]

298 Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).
6. Menstrual Periods - Sahih Al-Bukhari - 0 - 298

THE DICTIONARY DEFINES “apostasy” as “the renunciation of a religious or political belief or allegiance” (Microsoft Encarta Dictionary). Thus, Apostasy is a defection, a falling away from what one believed in, as apostasy from one’s religion, creed, or politics. Hence, one becomes an "apostate" as soon as he departs from his former belief, whatever it was. What undergoes change is not the person nor his nature but his beliefs.


THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF APOSTASY

The Bible also has a definition for “apostasy.” The Lord Jesus mentioned the following in Matthew 24:9-11:

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.” (NIV)

These words of the Lord Jesus Christ, “will turn away from the faith” were also mentioned by Apostle Paul in I Timothy 4:1:

“Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.” (NLT)

“Turning away from the true faith” is synonymous with “apostasy”:

“But the Spirit speaks expressly, that in latter times some shall APOSTATISE from the faith, giving their mind to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons.” (Darby Bible)

Thus, according to the Bible, “apostasy” means “turning away (departing, abandoning, falling away, deserting and renouncing) from the faith.”

 

[Samael_Khan]

Are you referring to true believers or fanatics?
Because real believers believe because they have solid evidence and they have this holy fear inside of them.
Real believers believe because they read the assertions in the Bible while they see these in the real life.
Fanatics on the other hand falsely believe that their own worship is acceptable and pleasing to God
We see the fanatics and what they do fortifies our faith in the Bible
Examples?

The Bible contains several examples of God’s words that were declared long ago but were appointed to take place in the time when the end is near. One of these is that written in Revelation chapter 6:12-13:

“I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.” (Revelation 6:12-13 NKJV)

In this verse, the Bible is telling about a “great earthquake.” Although there were many “great earthquakes” happened in the past, but the Bible explicitly tells us that this “great earthquake” is followed by the “sun became black as sackcloth of hair,” the “moon became like blood,” and the “stars of heaven fell to the earth.” These distinguished the “great earthquake” of Revelation 6:12-13 from other earthquakes occurred in the past.

The fulfillment of this “great earthquake” is the earthquake of 1755 in Lisbon, Portugal. The Lisbon earthquake is one of the strongest earthquakes recorded, felt in a radius of about forty times larger that the United Kingdom and claimed 6,000 lives (The Physical Earth, pp. 28-29).

We are certain that the Lisbon earthquake of 1755 is the fulfillment of the “great earthquake” mentioned in Revelation 6:12-13, because this is the earthquake followed by the “sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the moon became like blood” which the fulfillment is what history called as the “Black Friday” of May 19, 1780 in New England (The New International Encyclopedia, volume VI, p. 502).

Take note that according to the Book of Revelation the “great earthquake” was followed by “sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the “moon became like blood” which followed by “stars of heaven fell to the earth.”

The fulfillment of the “stars of heaven fell to the earth” that followed the “sun became black as sackcloth of hair” and the “moon became like blood” is the “meteor shower” of 1833. In the night of November 12, 1833, hundreds of meteorites (also called “falling stars”) seen in the whole eastern part of the United States (N.E.S., p. 1217).

What takes place during the sixth seal are a series of events that make the kings of the earth, the great men , mighty men, every slave and every free man hide in caves and in the rocks in the mountains. Did the Kings of the earth and every slave and every free man do this? (verses 15 and 16)

Also your interpretation of the prophecy takes almost a century to be fulfilled which is intriguing but not conclusive as the question of how much of an impact and the area of impact of the sixth seal is something to question, as it only impacts certain areas of the world and I suspect it didn't affect the Kings of the earth or every free man and slave on the planet, if that is what the book means.

I think the sixth seal was intended to be linked to Matthew 24: 29-31

What other evidence do you have?

Even if this one prophecy in revelation came to pass, it alone doesn't do various things:

1) It doesn't prove that the whole of the book of Revelation is true as it is evidence of only a few sentences
2) It doesn't provide evidence for the other books of the bible being true (Besides the gospel previously mentioned) .
2) Doesn't provide any evidence for the existence of God.
3) Doesn't say anything one way or the other regarding the OP

Regarding true believers vs fanatics:

A true believer can be a fanatic as the meaning of fanatic is "a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause." The prophets of the Bible can be seen as fanatics.

As for solid evidence, one would have to provide more than intriguing evidence for only a few sentences in the Bible. The evidence would have to support various things from multiple books with certainty.

Regarding apostasy, how does one identify an apostate? Who are the ones who have turned away from the faith?

What if another religious book makes claims in the same way and some of them come true? Is that good evidence to be a believer in that religion?

 

[MJFlores]

Revelation 6:15 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the military commanders and the wealthy and the strong and everyone, [whether] slave or free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;

Regarding apostasy, how does one identify an apostate? Who are the ones who have turned away from the faith?

What if another religious book makes claims in the same way and some of them come true? Is that good evidence to be a believer in that religion?

The Lord Jesus Christ said:

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.” (Matthew 24:9-11 NIV)

One of the meanings of Apostasy is “turning away from the faith.” Who are those that He is referring to that many of them will turn away from the faith? The Lord Jesus also said, “Then YOU will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and YOU will be hated by all nations because of ME. AT THAT TIME many will turn away from the faith…”

The Lord Jesus Christ is talking to His disciples, the members of the first century Church Of Christ. The Lord Jesus prophesied that His disciples will be persecuted and put to death. Did this happen? Were members of the first century Church Of Christ persecuted and put to death? The first who persecuted the first century Church were the Jews:

“And Saul was there, giving approval to his death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.” (Acts 8:1-3 NIV)

During the Jewish persecution of the Church many were put to death including Stephen and James the brother of John. The first century Church also suffered persecution from the Roman Empire:

“Tacitus recorded the rumor that Nero had ordered the fire that destroyed part of the city of Rome. This rumor was so widely accepted by the people that Nero had to find a scapegoat. He diverted feeling against himself to the Christians by accusing them of arson and by engaging in a Saturnalia of destruction of the Christians.” (Christianity Through the Centuries, p. 91)

The Roman imperial persecution of the Church was initiated by the Roman Emperor Nero. During the Neronian persecution many Christians were put to death. The second imperial persecution was during the reign of Roman Emperor Domitian:

“Persecution broke out again in 95 during the reign of the despotic Domitian. The Jews had refused to pay a poll tax that had been levied for the support of Capitolinus Jupiter. Because the Christians continued to be associated with the Jews, they also suffered the effects of the emperor’s wrath. It was during this persecution that the apostle John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelation.” (Christianity Through the Centuries, p. 91)

The imperial persecution continued even after the first century:

“In 235 Alexander Severus was succeeded by the emperor Maximin, who disliked the favour shown to Christians in the in the imperial household, and for a short period there was an unpleasant persecution which, unlike most of the earlier persecutions where the decisive factor was the attitude of the local governor, seems to have been inspired by the emperor’s personal decision.” (The Early Church, p. 110-111)

Take note of what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:9-11. Let us read again this verse:

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. AT THAT TIME MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.” (Matthew 24:9-11 NIV)

The Lord Jesus Christ did not only prophesied that the first century Church Of Christ will be persecuted and put to death (“Then YOU will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and YOU will be hated by all nations because of Me…”), but He also prophesied that apostasy will take place (“…At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH…”).

If the first part of the prophecy proclaimed by the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:9-11 that the first century Church will be persecuted and put to death did take place, then we are definitely sure that the second part of His prophecy stating that many will turn away from the faith (the first century Church will be apostatized) also did take place.

The Lord Jesus Christ also prophesied that “At that time (the persecution of the early Church) MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH…” Thus, when the Lord Jesus Christ said, “many will turn away from the faith,” He is referring to apostasy that will take place in the first century Church Of Christ.

The Bible describes the “apostate church” as the “mother of harlots”:

“Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

“And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” (Revelation 17:1, 5 NKJV)

The Church built by Christ is likened to a “chaste virgin” (cf. II Cor. 11:2), so “harlot” symbolizes false church. However, the Book of Revelation mentioned “mother of harlots.” Thus, the book of Revelation is referring to the “false church” who is the mother of other false churches. The Book of Revelation also gave us the “marks” to identify the “mother of harlots”: “woman seated upon many waters,” and called “Babylon.” What does it mean that the “mother of harlots” is seated upon many waters? In Revelation 17:5, this is what it says:

“Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
“Then he said to me, ‘The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.” (Revelation 17:1, 15 NKJV)

“Universal” is what “seated in many waters” meant because the “waters” are “peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.” Now, the Catholic authorities themselves testify that “Babylon” referred to Rome:

“Babylon: Rome. A metaphor probably founded on Jewish usage.” (I Peter 5:13 footnote, Douay-Rheims)


Which church claims to be “universal”?

“The word ‘Catholic’ means ‘universal,’ ‘extending all over the world.’” (Catholic Catechism. Part II. Imprimatur: Rufino J. Cardinal Santos. Manila: Catholic Trade School, 1961, p. 146b)

Which church claims to be universal and bears the name of Rome?

“The Church is called Roman Catholic because its chief ruler is the lawful bishop of Rome.” (Catholic Catechism. Part II. Imprimatur: Rufino J. Cardinal Santos. Manila: Catholic Trade School, 1961, p. 146a)

Thus, the Roman Catholic Church is the fulfillment of the “mother of harlots” mentioned in the Book of Revelation – the apostate church which is the mother of other false churches.

 

[gnostic]

I know I know, because they don’t exist.

If you do not think demons exist, then what do you yourself call "children"?

Or “lawyers”?

...”car salesmen”?

How about “insurances”?

“Politicians”?

“TRUMP”?! The (moron) grandfather of all demons.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Revelation 6:15 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the military commanders and the wealthy and the strong and everyone, [whether] slave or free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;

View attachment 39784View attachment 39785View attachment 39786

From what I can tell, the images that you have provided are of trench warfare and mining during the 1900's. Those don't count because it isn't as a result of the previous events you mentioned, everybody didn't hide in caves and rocks in the mountains. You also didn't add verse 16 which says that they were hiding because the one who sits on the throne (God) and the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus).

The Lord Jesus Christ said:

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.” (Matthew 24:9-11 NIV)

One of the meanings of Apostasy is “turning away from the faith.” Who are those that He is referring to that many of them will turn away from the faith? The Lord Jesus also said, “Then YOU will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and YOU will be hated by all nations because of ME. AT THAT TIME many will turn away from the faith…”

The Lord Jesus Christ is talking to His disciples, the members of the first century Church Of Christ. The Lord Jesus prophesied that His disciples will be persecuted and put to death. Did this happen? Were members of the first century Church Of Christ persecuted and put to death? The first who persecuted the first century Church were the Jews:

View attachment 39787

“And Saul was there, giving approval to his death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.” (Acts 8:1-3 NIV)

During the Jewish persecution of the Church many were put to death including Stephen and James the brother of John. The first century Church also suffered persecution from the Roman Empire:

“Tacitus recorded the rumor that Nero had ordered the fire that destroyed part of the city of Rome. This rumor was so widely accepted by the people that Nero had to find a scapegoat. He diverted feeling against himself to the Christians by accusing them of arson and by engaging in a Saturnalia of destruction of the Christians.” (Christianity Through the Centuries, p. 91)

View attachment 39788

The Roman imperial persecution of the Church was initiated by the Roman Emperor Nero. During the Neronian persecution many Christians were put to death. The second imperial persecution was during the reign of Roman Emperor Domitian:

“Persecution broke out again in 95 during the reign of the despotic Domitian. The Jews had refused to pay a poll tax that had been levied for the support of Capitolinus Jupiter. Because the Christians continued to be associated with the Jews, they also suffered the effects of the emperor’s wrath. It was during this persecution that the apostle John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelation.” (Christianity Through the Centuries, p. 91)

The imperial persecution continued even after the first century:

“In 235 Alexander Severus was succeeded by the emperor Maximin, who disliked the favour shown to Christians in the in the imperial household, and for a short period there was an unpleasant persecution which, unlike most of the earlier persecutions where the decisive factor was the attitude of the local governor, seems to have been inspired by the emperor’s personal decision.” (The Early Church, p. 110-111)

View attachment 39789

Take note of what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:9-11. Let us read again this verse:

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. AT THAT TIME MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.” (Matthew 24:9-11 NIV)

The Lord Jesus Christ did not only prophesied that the first century Church Of Christ will be persecuted and put to death (“Then YOU will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and YOU will be hated by all nations because of Me…”), but He also prophesied that apostasy will take place (“…At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH…”).

If the first part of the prophecy proclaimed by the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:9-11 that the first century Church will be persecuted and put to death did take place, then we are definitely sure that the second part of His prophecy stating that many will turn away from the faith (the first century Church will be apostatized) also did take place.

The Lord Jesus Christ also prophesied that “At that time (the persecution of the early Church) MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH…” Thus, when the Lord Jesus Christ said, “many will turn away from the faith,” He is referring to apostasy that will take place in the first century Church Of Christ.

The Bible describes the “apostate church” as the “mother of harlots”:

“Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

“And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” (Revelation 17:1, 5 NKJV)

The Church built by Christ is likened to a “chaste virgin” (cf. II Cor. 11:2), so “harlot” symbolizes false church. However, the Book of Revelation mentioned “mother of harlots.” Thus, the book of Revelation is referring to the “false church” who is the mother of other false churches. The Book of Revelation also gave us the “marks” to identify the “mother of harlots”: “woman seated upon many waters,” and called “Babylon.” What does it mean that the “mother of harlots” is seated upon many waters? In Revelation 17:5, this is what it says:

“Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
“Then he said to me, ‘The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.” (Revelation 17:1, 15 NKJV)

“Universal” is what “seated in many waters” meant because the “waters” are “peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.” Now, the Catholic authorities themselves testify that “Babylon” referred to Rome:

“Babylon: Rome. A metaphor probably founded on Jewish usage.” (I Peter 5:13 footnote, Douay-Rheims)


Which church claims to be “universal”?

“The word ‘Catholic’ means ‘universal,’ ‘extending all over the world.’” (Catholic Catechism. Part II. Imprimatur: Rufino J. Cardinal Santos. Manila: Catholic Trade School, 1961, p. 146b)

View attachment 39790

Which church claims to be universal and bears the name of Rome?

“The Church is called Roman Catholic because its chief ruler is the lawful bishop of Rome.” (Catholic Catechism. Part II. Imprimatur: Rufino J. Cardinal Santos. Manila: Catholic Trade School, 1961, p. 146a)

Thus, the Roman Catholic Church is the fulfillment of the “mother of harlots” mentioned in the Book of Revelation – the apostate church which is the mother of other false churches.

I agree with your viewpoint that the apostasy was to take place in the first century according to Jesus. I wouldn't place so much focus on persecution being predicted because many leaders from many different religions have claimed the same, and the prediction was fulfilled, because it is common that the majority oppress those who come from strange eccentric movements. For instance, the David Koresh of the Branch Davidians, the Church of Almighty God, Jim Jones, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, all have said that they will be persecuted and they were to different degrees, but not necessarily for the wrong reasons. They used this persecution as proof that they were God's people.

Your take on the Catholic Church being the harlot is a common one. I would agree that harlot means false church, not non Christian based religions, as for her to commit adultery, she would have to be "married" first. But I could be wrong.

I also checked out the below to see both sides of the argument, as I am only familiar with your viewpoint:

Is the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon?

The most intriguing questions I get from the rebuttal is:

Who are the daughters of the Whore? Is it perhaps the protestants?
Which saint's blood did they shed?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How do we know the Bible was not written by demons?

I know I know, because they don’t exist.

But suppose if you believed in demons and believed that demons can impersonate the dead.

Demons could have stolen Lazuras body and impersonated him, and the same for Jesus, or Jesus Himself could even be a demon in league with other demons.

Meh, go straight to the source.
How do we know God is who he purports to be? Even if the Bible was written by the most honest and scrupulous of humans, we know God to be good and worthy of worship because...

 

[MJFlores]

From what I can tell, the images that you have provided are of trench warfare and mining during the 1900's. Those don't count because it isn't as a result of the previous events you mentioned, everybody didn't hide in caves and rocks in the mountains. You also didn't add verse 16 which says that they were hiding because the one who sits on the throne (God) and the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus).

Ok, maybe it was mining. There were a bunch of gold diggers back then.
Let me replace that with more conclusive photos

Photo credit: Stock Photo - German soldiers at a concert in a cave, France, World War I, 1915. Artist: Unknown

Check out these inscriptions World War I soldiers scratched on underground caves as they hid from German bombing

I'm sure if we were on those trenches, we would "artistically" "figuratively" "metaphorically" ask the rocks to....

Revelation 6:16 New International Version (NIV)
They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

No one in World War I was able to take a picture of the one who sits on the throne and no one had taken a picture of the angry face of the Lamb [Jesus]. But the prophecies in the Bible are revealed to God's messengers, not to those who were misled or those who do not believe. What God's messengers could do is point out the time where it happened - so we [believers] could believe.

World War 1 - marked the end of days - it was the first much publicized war and it was global

Matthew 24:6 New International Version (NIV)
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Your take on the Catholic Church being the harlot is a common one. I would agree that harlot means false church, not non Christian based religions, as for her to commit adultery, she would have to be "married" first. But I could be wrong.

Prophecies are not to be taken literally.
When we read a harlot, we don't necessarily have to look for a literal woman.
Next a harlot is synonymous to a prostitute / hooker / street walker / call girl / the B......
No mention that the B was married
The harlot is a church and is universal

While the Church founded by Christ is compared to a virgin

2 Corinthians 11:2 New International Version (NIV)
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

The apostate church is the great harlot and a mother of harlots [offspring due to her prostitution]
While the Church of Christ is a pure virgin, the bride of Christ
The harlot intends to supplant itself as the bride of Christ

I also checked out the below to see both sides of the argument, as I am only familiar with your viewpoint:

Is the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon?

Revelation 18:2-8 New International Version (NIV)
With a mighty voice he shouted:

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’
She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
Give her as much torment and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;
I will never mourn.’
Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

That is what the B said: ‘Here I sit, a queen! I am no widow, I will never know grief’ and she keeps on telling that in her heart. But the prophecies clearly point to the B.

The most intriguing questions I get from the rebuttal is:

Who are the daughters of the Whore? Is it perhaps the protestants?
Which saint's blood did they shed?

For your last question: Which saint's blood did they shed?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Ok, maybe it was mining. There were a bunch of gold diggers back then.
Let me replace that with more conclusive photos

Photo credit: Stock Photo - German soldiers at a concert in a cave, France, World War I, 1915. Artist: Unknown

View attachment 39816

Check out these inscriptions World War I soldiers scratched on underground caves as they hid from German bombing

View attachment 39817View attachment 39818View attachment 39819

I'm sure if we were on those trenches, we would "artistically" "figuratively" "metaphorically" ask the rocks to....

Revelation 6:16 New International Version (NIV)
They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

No one in World War I was able to take a picture of the one who sits on the throne and no one had taken a picture of the angry face of the Lamb [Jesus]. But the prophecies in the Bible are revealed to God's messengers, not to those who were misled or those who do not believe. What God's messengers could do is point out the time where it happened - so we [believers] could believe.

That doesn't make sense to me from what I read from verse 16 because it says the kings of the earth and every slave and free man. This would extend beyond believers, as it seems that the writer intended believers to know that it will take place in the future but everyone would be involved in carrying the prophesy out.

Prophecies are not to be taken literally.
When we read a harlot, we don't necessarily have to look for a literal woman.
Next a harlot is synonymous to a prostitute / hooker / street walker / call girl / the B......
No mention that the B was married
The harlot is a church and is universal

View attachment 39821

While the Church founded by Christ is compared to a virgin

2 Corinthians 11:2 New International Version (NIV)
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

The apostate church is the great harlot and a mother of harlots [offspring due to her prostitution]
While the Church of Christ is a pure virgin, the bride of Christ
The harlot intends to supplant itself as the bride of Christ

Yes. I was meaning that the church is a harlot who commits adultery in the figurative sense. Marriage was a term applied to Israel and then Christs followers which was used to express their devotion to God. When they are said to commit adultery, it is an expression used to express their disloyalty to God and turning to foreign nations or religions, as used in many old Testament prophecies. I was referring to the idea that the Catholic Church was started by people who were married, devoted, to God and then they committed adultery, became disloyal, to God. So I agree with you on this.

Revelation 18:2-8 New International Version (NIV)
With a mighty voice he shouted:

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’
She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
Give her as much torment and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;
I will never mourn.’
Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

That is what the B said: ‘Here I sit, a queen! I am no widow, I will never know grief’ and she keeps on telling that in her heart. But the prophecies clearly point to the B.

For your last question: Which saint's blood did they shed?

What qualifies as a Saint? Would people like the Waldenses qualify?