How do you convert a Buddhist from all of thire magic?

[Aupmanyav]

What I said was...

You mentioned "controversial cases".

'Controversial cases' are where an interpretation of Constitution is required.

The cases before the CJI-led nine-judge Constitution Bench | Explained

On October 12, a nine-judge Bench of the Supreme Court, led by the Chief Justice of India D.Y Chandrachud, is set to hear long pending cases of constitutional importance, some of which are over two decades old.

www.thehindu.com

What cases will be heard by the nine-judge bench of the Supreme Court? - Supreme Court Observer

The nine-judge bench will hear cases on rights of landowners, taxation matters, power of state government to levy excise fee and industrial disputes.

www.scobserver.in

15 Nine-Judge Bench Decisions In Supreme Court's History

A nine-judge bench of the Supreme Court is at present considering the issues of religious freedom and fundamental rights mentioned in the Sabarimala review order.In this backdrop, it is pertinent...

www.livelaw.in

Supreme Court Pending Cases: SC dusts out 250 matters for 7- & 9-judge benches | India News - Times of India

India News: Chief Justice D Y Chandrachud plans to address 250 long-pending cases, including the sub-classification of backwardness within the scheduled caste cat

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

The current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of India is very pro-active (and many times at odds with the government). He will have a 2-year tenure lasting till Nov., 2024. His father served as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of India for 7 years, the longest for any Chief Justice.

 

[crossfire]

I haven't seen you use that word in this thread.

Post #67, which you quoted in post #71.

I have no clue what you're talking about, and your own particular version of it could be divergent, and non-conventional ( Mercuræn-Antimonian ).

Jhana work, as described in the Buddhist sutta quoted in post #73. I am antinomian in regards to the cultural nomos, (one such example would be feminism, which critiques the cultural nomos referred to as "The Patriarchy,") I am not divergent in regards to the jhana work as listed in post #73.

Are you claiming it's "High Black Magick"? If so then I would expect yes, definitely.

Greater Black Magick is the term used in the western left hand path orders I worked with (not high black magick) and it is the description for magick you perform on yourself.

If it's anasthesia, tranqualizing, hypnotic, somatic, inspiring, shadow-work, role-play, emotional regulation, addressing obsessive invasive thoughts, delusions, ruminations, dream interpretation, etc....

None of these are actual elements in jhana work/samadhi. See post #73 for Buddha's description.

Here is what I said:

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Pete in Panama]

'Controversial cases' are where an interpretation of Constitution is required.

The cases before the CJI-led nine-judge Constitution Bench | Explained

On October 12, a nine-judge Bench of the Supreme Court, led by the Chief Justice of India D.Y Chandrachud, is set to hear long pending cases of constitutional importance, some of which are over two decades old.

www.thehindu.com

What cases will be heard by the nine-judge bench of the Supreme Court? - Supreme Court Observer

The nine-judge bench will hear cases on rights of landowners, taxation matters, power of state government to levy excise fee and industrial disputes.

www.scobserver.in

15 Nine-Judge Bench Decisions In Supreme Court's History

A nine-judge bench of the Supreme Court is at present considering the issues of religious freedom and fundamental rights mentioned in the Sabarimala review order.In this backdrop, it is pertinent...

www.livelaw.in

Supreme Court Pending Cases: SC dusts out 250 matters for 7- & 9-judge benches | India News - Times of India

India News: Chief Justice D Y Chandrachud plans to address 250 long-pending cases, including the sub-classification of backwardness within the scheduled caste cat

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

The current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of India is very pro-active (and many times at odds with the government). He will have a 2-year tenure lasting till Nov., 2024. His father served as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of India for 7 years, the longest for any Chief Justice.

That is interesting and I thank you for the thoughts. Please share any thoughts you had on evidence w/ respect to how...

What I said was...
... "evidence" comes in all kinds of flavors w/ some of it pointing one way and the rest pointing the other. A lot of folks on these threads insist that good evidence agrees w/ whatever they believe and the rest is false evidence.

 

[dybmh]

Post #67, which you quoted in post #71.

Thank you. Sorry. I immediately dropped the buddhist semantic label because you defined it as "concentration".

I haven't heard of psychologists using samadhi.

Here's what you posted about samadhi:

And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."

You're asking if psychologists employ these techniques? Yes, it's called hynotherapy.

None of these are actual elements in jhana work/samadhi. See post #73 for Buddha's description.

Hypnotherapy and perhaps elements of somatic therapy depending on the individual seeking help. Also, if there are any mental visualizations involved in the process that is certainly included in almost any sort of psychotherapy. The "Magick" you're describing seems to be not only included but is eclipsed by modern psychology

 

[crossfire]

Thank you. Sorry. I immediately dropped the buddhist semantic label because you defined it as "concentration".

Actually concentration was the English translation of samadhi used in the English translation of the quoted Buddhist sutta.

Here's what you posted about samadhi:



You're asking if psychologists employ these techniques? Yes, it's called hynotherapy.



Hypnotherapy and perhaps elements of somatic therapy depending on the individual seeking help. Also, if there are any mental visualizations involved in the process that is certainly included in almost any sort of psychotherapy. The "Magick" you're describing seems to be not only included but is eclipsed by modern psychology

Hypnotherapy lacks the bliss of the four rupa jhanas of samadhi, as described in the sutta. But hey, suit yourself. Buddha limited his teaching to the ending of suffering, which is also the most likely goal of hynotherapy, so in that respect they can be called similar.

 

[dybmh]

Actually concentration was the English translation of samadhi used in the English translation of the quoted Buddhist sutta.

You brought a definition which matches what is availble in conventional settings. Not just in therauptic contexts, but athletes, for example. Chess players. Anyone who is "high-peforming" is doing the same things.

What you brought achieves it solo potentially with zero physical effort. In some ways, this is great, in other ways, not so much. Just like everything, there's trade offs and potential for harmful side-effects. See below.

“Meditation Sickness” in Medieval Chinese Buddhism and the Contemporary West - Pierce Salguero PHD - PDF Attached below





The PDF is published by Dickinson College which is accredited by the Commission on Higher Education of the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools, 3624 Market Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104, 267-284-5000. The Commission on Higher Education is an institutional accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Secretary of Education and the Commission on Recognition of Postsecondary Accreditation.

Hypnotherapy lacks the bliss of the four rupa jhanas of samadhi, as described in the sutta. But hey, suit yourself. Buddha limited his teaching to the ending of suffering, which is also the most likely goal of hynotherapy, so in that respect they can be called similar.

I disagree, I think the word "bliss" here is being dramatized and exaggerated.

But this has strayed far far from the topic. Unless you would like to connect "bliss" to "magic" somehow in a way which is distinguishable from "bliss" which is achievable in a conventional manner by conventional people, I think this is a good stopping point.

@Frank Goad , here is something you can print and/or provide to those who are looking to escape from "Buddhist Magic". The PDF below describes the adverse harmful side-effects that Buddhist's and apparently "Greater Black Magicians" never seem to talk about or warn about. It's probably a risk for anyone who is attempting to approach a "non-dual" meditative state. But no one talks about it.

 

[Secret Chief]

You brought a definition which matches what is availble in conventional settings. Not just in therauptic contexts, but athletes, for example. Chess players. Anyone who is "high-peforming" is doing the same things.

What you brought achieves it solo potentially with zero physical effort. In some ways, this is great, in other ways, not so much. Just like everything, there's trade offs and potential for harmful side-effects. See below.

“Meditation Sickness” in Medieval Chinese Buddhism and the Contemporary West - Pierce Saleguero PHD - PDF Attached below


View attachment 83557


The PDF is published by Dickinson College which is accredited by the Commission on Higher Education of the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools, 3624 Market Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104, 267-284-5000. The Commission on Higher Education is an institutional accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Secretary of Education and the Commission on Recognition of Postsecondary Accreditation.



I disagree, I think the word "bliss" here is being dramatized and exaggerated.

But this has strayed far far from the topic. Unless you would like to connect "bliss" to "magic" somehow in a way which is distinguishable from "bliss" which is achievable in a conventional manner by conventional people, i think this is a good stopping point.

@Frank Goad , here is something you can print and/or provide to those who are looking to escape from "Buddhist Magic". The PDF below describes the adverse harmful side-effects that Buddhist's and apparently "Black Magicians" never seem to talk about or warn about. It's probably a risk for anyone who is attempting to approach a "non-dual" medatative state. But no one talks about it.

I might talk about it if I could view it!

 

[dybmh]

I might talk about it if I could view it!

I can try to help. What happens when you click on the attachment? Do you at least see the link to the attachment below my post?

 

[Secret Chief]

I can try to help. What happens when you click on the attachment? Do you at least see the link to the attachment below my post?

View attachment 83561

Nope. I get blank or option to print.

 

[dybmh]

Nope. I get blank or option to print.

OK, it's working fine for me. I can click on the link and download it, and it opens in english, viewable, 45 pages.

There's a couple of options. Maybe the first thing to try is to download it yourself from Pierce Salguero's website with all their other publications. If that doesn't work, I can find another way to get it to you.

It's still just a download link which will ask you to download the PDF.

Here's that.

Academic Research & Publications – C. Pierce Salguero, Ph.D.

www.piercesalguero.com

It's the first link:

 

[dybmh]

I might talk about it if I could view it!

I'll just briefly say that in Judaism there are these sorts of practices, meditations, visualizations, but they are highly restricted to whom they are taught. They are secret practices in order to protect the community and there are multiple layers of protections in place to ensure those who do learn them can do it safely. I'm not going to detail these, but when I read the journal article, all the protections that were implemented by the Jewish sages make perfect sense.

At some point little scrips-and-scraps of these secret practices did leak to the public. And that is what, in large part, spawned "western occult" philosophies / orders / schools of "magic". But they do not implement the majority of the protections that are in place in Judaism. Some do, but, most do not.

 

[Secret Chief]

OK, it's working fine for me. I can click on the link and download it, and it opens in english, viewable, 45 pages.

There's a couple of options. Maybe the first thing to try is to download it yourself from Pierce Salguero's website with all their other publications. If that doesn't work, I can find another way to get it to you.

It's still just a download link which will ask you to download the PDF.

Here's that.

Academic Research & Publications – C. Pierce Salguero, Ph.D.

www.piercesalguero.com

It's the first link:

View attachment 83565

45 pages? Er, sorry, no.

 

[Secret Chief]

I'll just briefly say that in Judaism there are these sorts of practices, meditations, visualizations, but they are highly restricted to whom they are taught. They are secret practices in order to protect the community and there are multiple layers of protections in place to ensure those who do learn them can do it safely. I'm not going to detail these, but when I read the journal article, all the protections that were implemented by the Jewish sages make perfect sense.

At some point little scrips-and-scraps of these secret practices did leak to the public. And that is what, in large part, spawned "western occult" philosophies / orders / schools of "magic". But they do not implement the majority of the protections that are in place in Judaism. Some do, but, most do not.

Ok. There's nothing esoteric in zen afaik. I think there may be in Vajrayana, given it is a syncretic mixture of Buddhism and Bon.

 

[dybmh]

45 pages? Er, sorry, no.

On the bottom of page 45, I have:

"Wilson, Jeff. Mindful America: The Mutual Transformation of Buddhist Medita-
tion and American Culture. Oxford UP, 2014"

What is on your last page? Here's a picture of the page count. Apologies that it's a little fuzzy. I couldn't take a screenshot, the page count kept disappearing on me.

Ok. There's nothing esoteric in zen afaik. I think there may be in Vajrayana, given it is a syncretic mixture of Buddhism and Bon.

You and @crossfire should have a little chat I suppose. If you review my posts, everything that that has been described in this thread is not esoteric at all. Not magical at all. I have described it as an incomplete version of Jewish mysticism blended with an incomplete version of the buddhist 8 fold path which originated in an occult "order" of "Greater Black Magick".

But, big picture: Are you confirming that there is zero communication with buddhists about the risks of engaging in this practice prior to beginning on the journey of erasing their inherent identity, their "self"?

 

[crossfire]

<...>


I disagree, I think the word "bliss" here is being dramatized and exaggerated.

But this has strayed far far from the topic. Unless you would like to connect "bliss" to "magic" somehow in a way which is distinguishable from "bliss" which is achievable in a conventional manner by conventional people, I think this is a good stopping point.

@Frank Goad , here is something you can print and/or provide to those who are looking to escape from "Buddhist Magic". The PDF below describes the adverse harmful side-effects that Buddhist's and apparently "Greater Black Magicians" never seem to talk about or warn about. It's probably a risk for anyone who is attempting to approach a "non-dual" meditative state. But no one talks about it.

The bliss from the first two rupa jhanas can be rather subtle. However, the BLISS! from the third rupa jhana is unmistakable, grabs your attention, and is very yummy. One could easily get attached to the bliss of the third rupa jhana and become a spiritual junkie (accompanied by the typical junkie-like behavior) if you do not progress on to the fourth rupa jhana of equanimity/stable mind where the experience has been fully individuated--where any junkie-like addiction/attachments and behavior have been let go of and you sit easy with the knowledge gained.

I don't know if your pdf addresses this or not. I will have to check it out when I get to my desktop later on today.

 

[crossfire]

<...>

But, big picture: Are you confirming that there is zero communication with buddhists about the risks of engaging in this practice prior to beginning on the journey of erasing their inherent identity, their "self"?

You are not erasing your Self. You are dropping any Self-views. Instead of looking for things you focus on actions: this condition arises from that condition, which can lead to this other condition, etc.

 

[dybmh]

The bliss from the first two rupa jhanas can be rather subtle. However, the BLISS! from the third rupa jhana is unmistakable, grabs your attention, and is very yummy. One could easily get attached to the bliss of the third rupa jhana and become a spiritual junkie (accompanied by the typical junkie-like behavior) if you do not progress on to the fourth rupa jhana of equanimity/stable mind where the experience has been fully individuated--where any junkie-like addiction/attachments and behavior have been let go of and you sit easy with the knowledge gained.

I don't know if your pdf addresses this or not. I will have to check it out when I get to my desktop later on today.

The PDF is about the risks and harm that many are reporting when involved in any meditative practice. I see a clear pattern represented there.

The question of bliss is different, and what you have described does not sound to me to be anything magical or unacheivable in conventional settings, even though it is typed in all caps. I was a wrestler in high school, there were many times I experienced what you described. It's being "in the zone", or "floating". Regarding the all caps, each person is different. I remember winning consistently in increasingly difficult matches, and that was a all-caps blissful event. My wife describes childbirth in those terms. And she is not alone. It's excrutiating, but also BLISS. But, from what I'm seeing, one doesn't generally become a junkie on it, for various reasons.

It would be good, though, if you ( or anyone ) would please download the PDF and verify that it has all 45 pages and is legible. @Secret Chief is having trouble with it.

 

[crossfire]

On the bottom of page 45, I have:

"Wilson, Jeff. Mindful America: The Mutual Transformation of Buddhist Medita-
tion and American Culture. Oxford UP, 2014"

What is on your last page? Here's a picture of the page count. Apologies that it's a little fuzzy. I couldn't take a screenshot, the page count kept disappearing on me.

View attachment 83569



You and @crossfire should have a little chat I suppose. If you review my posts, everything that that has been described in this thread is not esoteric at all. Not magical at all. I have described it as an incomplete version of Jewish mysticism blended with an incomplete version of the buddhist 8 fold path which originated in an occult "order" of "Greater Black Magick".

But, big picture: Are you confirming that there is zero communication with buddhists about the risks of engaging in this practice prior to beginning on the journey of erasing their inherent identity, their "self"?

Mmm, okay. @Secret Chief I'm a recovering koan junkie. However, I choose to keep this attachment/addiction so I will have a reference point as to what sort of dukkha effects comes along with an attachment. Thank you for helping me through my junkie phases.

**bows and slaps @Secret Chief with a fish**

 

[crossfire]

The PDF is about the risks and harm that many are reporting when involved in any meditative practice. I see a clear pattern represented there.

The question of bliss is different, and what you have described does not sound to me to be anything magical or unacheivable in conventional settings, even though it is typed in all caps. I was a wrestler in high school, there were many times I experienced what you described. It's being "in the zone", or "floating". Regarding the all caps, each person is different. I remember winning consistently in increasingly difficult matches, and that was a all-caps blissful event. My wife describes childbirth in those terms. And she is not alone. It's excrutiating, but also BLISS. But, from what I'm seeing, one doesn't generally become a junkie on it, for various reasons.

It would be good, though, if you ( or anyone ) would please download the PDF and verify that it has all 45 pages and is legible. @Secret Chief is having trouble with it.

Oh, I agree that there are different bliss experiences. The first and second rupa jhanas are comparable to being in the zone. However, the all caps BLISS! of the third rupa jhana is well deserved, and even the all caps and exclamation point does not do it justice. It's better than morphine or any other drug or other experience. (You will have to take my word for it if you haven't experienced it for yourself.)

 

[Secret Chief]

Thank you for helping me through my junkie phases.

When did I do that?